ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history

[fairweatherfan]

Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.

Just to clarify this for folks because it's amazing, it wasn't the dunking that was illegal, it was that he was dunking his free throws.  He was a bad shooter from the line so he would just dunk them instead.  Completely insane athleticism.

Yes.  That's what I meant to convey. Thank you for the clarification.  I'll edit it.

any videos of him doing that ?

Can't find anything on it but enjoy this reel of other Wilt dunks instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHh-Kh5UxI4

Would've loved to see him matched up against a modern beast like Shaq.  Or Hakeem for that matter.  A talent who would excel in any era.

EDIT: They talk about it in this video on his FTs - apparently he did it in an (untaped) freshman college game and the rule change was quickly adopted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM  About 3 minutes in.

[MBunge]

Forget about LeBron over Russell.  What in the world is the justification for putting LeBron over Duncan? 

Mike

[PhoSita]

I have a feeling that at least a few of the players ESPN ranked ahead of Bill would agree that Bill's career was more impressive.

[Moranis]

I have a feeling that at least a few of the players ESPN ranked ahead of Bill would agree that Bill's career was more impressive.

Sure because his team success is unmatched, but that doesn't mean they weren't better players than Bill.

[i believe in brad]

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

I'm a serious Lebron-hater but it's impossible to deny how much better he makes his teammates.  Guy is one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen.

But yes I agree with your next statement that to be considered in the elite of elite you should need to be able to gel with/lead/succeed with your teams, and generally Bron Bron is a big whiner Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. (giving up in game 6 against Celtics in 2010).

[td450]

Regardless of how you analyze the quality of the teams Russell was on and played against, I don't think people give enough weight to the statistical improbability of what he accomplished. He won titles 11 of 13 times, and was unavailable due to injury during the playoffs for one of the two years he didn't win.

He won two NCAA titles.

He won two California State championships in high school.

His last championship was particularly amazing. It came against a spectacular Lakers team that was far more talented and was heavily favored.

Essentially, he almost never lost when it counted. No one in the history of team sports has ever come close.

[footey]

I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.

The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it

Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

I feel your argument is flawed.  The reason Bill Russell played with so many Hall of Famers is because they won so many championships, not because his teammates put up some incredible numbers. The reason they won so many championships (8 years in a row, 11 in 13 years) was because Bill Russell anchored their defense, let them in rebounding, which enabled them to run other teams off the court.  Ask his team-mates, most are still alive and will tell you the same.  Ask Russell's competitors, or NBA players who grew up watching him play (Jabbar, Walton) and they will tell you the same. 

[Who]

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

I'm a serious Lebron-hater but it's impossible to deny how much better he makes his teammates.  Guy is one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen.

But yes I agree with your next statement that to be considered in the elite of elite you should need to be able to gel with/lead/succeed with your teams, and generally Bron Bron is a big whiner **** (giving up in game 6 against Celtics in 2010).

Impossible to argue how much better LeBron makes role players.

Easy to argue that LeBron does not make his fellow stars any better. In fact, they often play worse when alongside LeBron.

[Moranis]

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

I'm a serious Lebron-hater but it's impossible to deny how much better he makes his teammates.  Guy is one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen.

But yes I agree with your next statement that to be considered in the elite of elite you should need to be able to gel with/lead/succeed with your teams, and generally Bron Bron is a big whiner **** (giving up in game 6 against Celtics in 2010).

Impossible to argue how much better LeBron makes role players.

Easy to argue that LeBron does not make his fellow stars any better. In fact, they often play worse when alongside LeBron.

So did Jordan.  So did Bird.  So did Magic.  etc.  When you have to share the ball more, your numbers go down.  Only natural.

[Celtics17]

About twenty years ago I worked with a gentleman who had gone to KU with Wilt. He said that he had witnessed him dunking free throws in practice. It would be interesting to see if Wilt had to play the same role that Russ did if he could do it as well. People say he wasn't as good of a defensive player as Russel was but maybe it's because he had to score so much? I honestly think that if Wilt needed to be the defensive player that Russel was and his team didnt need him to score so much I think he could do as well.

I am not trying to discount Russel it's just that I feel like Wilt often doesnt get his due. I mean, we are talking about probably the single best athlete to ever play the game. There's a reason he has so many records and it's not because he played against only short white guys who couldnt run or jump. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I feel as if Wilt should be at the top of the list of great players. If he were playing today he would still force rule changes due to his dominance. They changed the rules to help MJ because the league needed a hero and they changed them to slow down Wilt because they needed a villain.

[Moranis]

I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.

The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it

Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

I feel your argument is flawed.  The reason Bill Russell played with so many Hall of Famers is because they won so many championships, not because his teammates put up some incredible numbers. The reason they won so many championships (8 years in a row, 11 in 13 years) was because Bill Russell anchored their defense, let them in rebounding, which enabled them to run other teams off the court.  Ask his team-mates, most are still alive and will tell you the same.  Ask Russell's competitors, or NBA players who grew up watching him play (Jabbar, Walton) and they will tell you the same.

When did Wilt Chamberlain first play with someone anywhere near as good as Bob Cousy or John Havilcek?  Heck how about Sam Jones?

Sure the titles probably made a HOFer out of KC Jones, but the Cous, Hondo and Sam were all HOF caliber players without the insane titles (as were Clyde Lovellette and Bailey Howell since they only had 2 and 3 years in Boston with 2 titles each)

[Who]

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

I'm a serious Lebron-hater but it's impossible to deny how much better he makes his teammates.  Guy is one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen.

But yes I agree with your next statement that to be considered in the elite of elite you should need to be able to gel with/lead/succeed with your teams, and generally Bron Bron is a big whiner **** (giving up in game 6 against Celtics in 2010).

Impossible to argue how much better LeBron makes role players.

Easy to argue that LeBron does not make his fellow stars any better. In fact, they often play worse when alongside LeBron.

So did Jordan.  So did Bird.  So did Magic.  etc.  When you have to share the ball more, your numbers go down.  Only natural.

Bird and Magic were both much better at enabling their teammates to be stars.

I consider LeBron closer to MJ but I'd give MJ the edge here as well but that is mainly because MJ was luckier to work with better coaches in Dean Smith and Phil Jackson who molded Jordan the right way. Something LeBron has never had from any of his coaches.

[Ed Hollison]

Some day they'll say Tom Brady is the 7th best QB behind Peyton Manning and 6 guys with less rings than him.   Including possibly Dan Marino

What an insight. Absolutely correct. Years from now, we will be telling younger people "I saw Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, and trust me, Brady was better." And yet, those people will just look at Peyton's stats, the 55 touchdowns in a season, the relative lack of good defenses behind him (until this year, of course), and insist that Peyton was the greatest ever.

Russell was the ultimate team player in a team sport. He was the best player on 11 championship teams. For the love of all that is good and holy, this is not boxing or tennis or even baseball, this is basketball.

Forget about LeBron over Russell.  What in the world is the justification for putting LeBron over Duncan? 

Mike

Completely agree. Duncan is massively underrated. Again, what should matter is a) were you the best player on your team?, and b) did your teams win? Duncan was on 5 championship teams and was the best player on 4 of them.

[Moranis]

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

I'm a serious Lebron-hater but it's impossible to deny how much better he makes his teammates.  Guy is one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen.

But yes I agree with your next statement that to be considered in the elite of elite you should need to be able to gel with/lead/succeed with your teams, and generally Bron Bron is a big whiner **** (giving up in game 6 against Celtics in 2010).

Impossible to argue how much better LeBron makes role players.

Easy to argue that LeBron does not make his fellow stars any better. In fact, they often play worse when alongside LeBron.

So did Jordan.  So did Bird.  So did Magic.  etc.  When you have to share the ball more, your numbers go down.  Only natural.

Bird and Magic were both much better at enabling their teammates to be stars.

I consider LeBron closer to MJ but I'd give MJ the edge here as well but that is mainly because MJ was luckier to work with better coaches in Dean Smith and Phil Jackson who molded Jordan the right way. Something LeBron has never had from any of his coaches.

Irving had better numbers last year than any year in his career.  Wade was actually about the same statistically in James' first year, then he just started getting older and more injured.

Yes, Bosh and Love had their numbers tail off, but Bosh and Love were also on far less talented teams where they were their only option prior to joining James. 

There are things to criticize James for, making his teammates worse is not one of them. 

[footey]

I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.

The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it

Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

I feel your argument is flawed.  The reason Bill Russell played with so many Hall of Famers is because they won so many championships, not because his teammates put up some incredible numbers. The reason they won so many championships (8 years in a row, 11 in 13 years) was because Bill Russell anchored their defense, let them in rebounding, which enabled them to run other teams off the court.  Ask his team-mates, most are still alive and will tell you the same.  Ask Russell's competitors, or NBA players who grew up watching him play (Jabbar, Walton) and they will tell you the same.

When did Wilt Chamberlain first play with someone anywhere near as good as Bob Cousy or John Havilcek?  Heck how about Sam Jones?

Sure the titles probably made a HOFer out of KC Jones, but the Cous, Hondo and Sam were all HOF caliber players without the insane titles (as were Clyde Lovellette and Bailey Howell since they only had 2 and 3 years in Boston with 2 titles each)

In both the '65-'66 season and the  '67-'68 season, Chamberlain played with Hal Greer, Wally Jones, Luke Jackson, Billy Cunningham and Chet Walker. The talent surrounding Chamberlain that year exceeded the talent level of Russell's team-mates.  Not even close. (That squad was the same one that had that tremendous '66-67 team that some historians depict as the greatest of all time.  Guess who won those two series? Celtics, who went on to beat the Lakers, who featured one of the greatest guards (Jerry West) and forwards (Elgin Baylor) in NBA history.  In fact the Celtics beat the Lakers so many times during the 60's, despite the two best players, from a statistical POV (which is how kids seem to measure value these days, God bless them) playing for the Lakers.  We don't win any of those series without Russell playing center. Heck, if he had not been injured in the '57-'58 season, we would have beaten the St. Louis Hawks, which would have given Russell let teams 10 championships in a row (we won our first in '56-'57.  Do you know why? Do you think it had anything to do with Bill Russell joining the team that year?  Who had better talent around him in '68-69 season, Wilt, with West and Baylor, or Russell, with Don Nelson, Bailey Howell and Emmit Bryant?  Be real.

Wilt put up the numbers (including against Bill). Bill always won (including against Wilt).  People often under-appreciate why Russell was such a winner.  He was an incredibly gifted athlete (competing in the Olympics as a high jumper, of all things), but what made him so great, (something pedestrian analysts at ESPN and SI do not understand, because they can't quantify it) was his mental and leadership skills, his tremendous will to win. I know that sounds vague, but I feel very strongly about how much Russell was able to motivate his team-mates, and also to outsmart his opponents. And how he should go down as the best of all time.  The only other player in the conversation is Michael Jordan.

I rest my case.