Poll

If the season ended today, how many Cs would make it on 1st or 2nd All-NBA Defensive Team?

1
14 (29.2%)
2
23 (47.9%)
3
8 (16.7%)
4
0 (0%)
None
3 (6.3%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?  (Read 7554 times)

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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2016, 06:15:32 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I gave up in media voted awards when Isaiah was robbed of the 6th man award.

I hated this (and look at Lou Williams now), but the all-star selection is way more impressive.

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2016, 06:21:12 PM »

Offline 2short

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I think we all agree that crowder, smart and Bradley are deserving.
To me smart is the best defensive guard in the nba, not that means he'll get 1st or even 2nd team.  Bradley has upped his defense from beginning of year, now playing very good (still not as amazing as a few years ago) and he has made the team previously.  Crowder is probably in toughest group.  Leonard is 1st team. Lots of good players in that group.

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2016, 06:42:20 PM »

Online jpotter33

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I think both Smart and Bradley are legitimately top-5 guard defenders in the NBA today, but as others have mentioned, between Smart's missed time and the fact that "defensive reputation" is a large part of the deal, I think Bradley has a better shot at making first team than Smart. If the season ended today, there's no way that one of those two isn't one of the first team guards. It'd be a travesty if the second overall best defensive team isn't rewarded with a first team player, especially when they have just as strong, if not stronger, of a case as any guard defender in the league.

I'll say two, and I think it'll be Bradley first team and Smart second team. There's just so many other wing defenders, i.e. Kawhi, Green, Iggy, George, etc., that Crowder will just miss the cut, especially if we already have two other defenders on the two teams.

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2016, 06:50:29 PM »

Offline max215

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I think we get 1, although Smart, Crowder, and Bradley should all be on the teams.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2016, 06:52:26 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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I'd be surprised if Jae didn't make it and almost as shocked if Marcus didn't. At best one of them should but two would be shocking to me.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2016, 06:52:49 PM »

Offline max215

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I think both Smart and Bradley are legitimately top-5 guard defenders in the NBA today, but as others have mentioned, between Smart's missed time and the fact that "defensive reputation" is a large part of the deal, I think Bradley has a better shot at making first team than Smart. If the season ended today, there's no way that one of those two isn't one of the first team guards. It'd be a travesty if the second overall best defensive team isn't rewarded with a first team player, especially when they have just as strong, if not stronger, of a case as any guard defender in the league.

I'll say two, and I think it'll be Bradley first team and Smart second team. There's just so many other wing defenders, i.e. Kawhi, Green, Iggy, George, etc., that Crowder will just miss the cut, especially if we already have two other defenders on the two teams.

I think Crowder and Bradley have really good shots. Smart, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to get the respect he deserves as a defender yet. As to the concern that he hasn't played enough, I would point out (just for argument's sake) that Kawhi was DPOY last year and played just 64 games.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 07:06:02 PM »

Online jpotter33

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I think both Smart and Bradley are legitimately top-5 guard defenders in the NBA today, but as others have mentioned, between Smart's missed time and the fact that "defensive reputation" is a large part of the deal, I think Bradley has a better shot at making first team than Smart. If the season ended today, there's no way that one of those two isn't one of the first team guards. It'd be a travesty if the second overall best defensive team isn't rewarded with a first team player, especially when they have just as strong, if not stronger, of a case as any guard defender in the league.

I'll say two, and I think it'll be Bradley first team and Smart second team. There's just so many other wing defenders, i.e. Kawhi, Green, Iggy, George, etc., that Crowder will just miss the cut, especially if we already have two other defenders on the two teams.

I think Crowder and Bradley have really good shots. Smart, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to get the respect he deserves as a defender yet. As to the concern that he hasn't played enough, I would point out (just for argument's sake) that Kawhi was DPOY last year and played just 64 games.

So last year Golden State (1st in defensive efficiency), San Antonio (4th in defensive efficiency), and LAC (17th in defensive efficiency) all received two players on the first and second team, so,  yeah, two players from our team should definitely be there if we're still in second place or close to it at the end of the season.

I wouldn't be upset if Crowder made it over Smart. It's only Smart's second year, and he'll undoubtedly be a perennial contender for it once he gets enough recognition for it (probably starting next year). However, I just don't see him beating out Kawhi (Spurs are 1st this year), George (Pacers are 3rd), Golden State (Warriors are 4th), and possibly even Lebron (Cavs are 6th). That's why I think Smart and Bradley make it over Crowder, because until Toronto at 8 (Lowry) you don't have any other major guards that could challenge their claim to perimeter defense. After that, it's purely based on popularity and reputation, i.e. Paul and Allen, though this might be the year that Allen is finally out of the running with Memphis being in the bottom half of defensive efficiency this year.

What would be sweet would be both Bradley and Smart making first team!

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 07:12:22 PM »

Offline max215

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I think both Smart and Bradley are legitimately top-5 guard defenders in the NBA today, but as others have mentioned, between Smart's missed time and the fact that "defensive reputation" is a large part of the deal, I think Bradley has a better shot at making first team than Smart. If the season ended today, there's no way that one of those two isn't one of the first team guards. It'd be a travesty if the second overall best defensive team isn't rewarded with a first team player, especially when they have just as strong, if not stronger, of a case as any guard defender in the league.

I'll say two, and I think it'll be Bradley first team and Smart second team. There's just so many other wing defenders, i.e. Kawhi, Green, Iggy, George, etc., that Crowder will just miss the cut, especially if we already have two other defenders on the two teams.

I think Crowder and Bradley have really good shots. Smart, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to get the respect he deserves as a defender yet. As to the concern that he hasn't played enough, I would point out (just for argument's sake) that Kawhi was DPOY last year and played just 64 games.

So last year Golden State (1st in defensive efficiency), San Antonio (4th in defensive efficiency), and LAC (17th in defensive efficiency) all received two players on the first and second team, so,  yeah, two players from our team should definitely be there if we're still in second place or close to it at the end of the season.

I wouldn't be upset if Crowder made it over Smart. It's only Smart's second year, and he'll undoubtedly be a perennial contender for it once he gets enough recognition for it (probably starting next year). However, I just don't see him beating out Kawhi (Spurs are 1st this year), George (Pacers are 3rd), Golden State (Warriors are 4th), and possibly even Lebron (Cavs are 6th). That's why I think Smart and Bradley make it over Crowder, because until Toronto at 8 (Lowry) you don't have any other major guards that could challenge their claim to perimeter defense. After that, it's purely based on popularity and reputation, i.e. Paul and Allen, though this might be the year that Allen is finally out of the running with Memphis being in the bottom half of defensive efficiency this year.

What would be sweet would be both Bradley and Smart making first team!

If Smart makes either team I'll be ecstatic. For my money he's the best defensive guard in the league, but he really doesn't get the respect that guys like CP and Wall get. It seems like Crowder has gained enough recognition as a stopper to earn a spot on one of the teams, but I could be completely mistaken.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 07:24:07 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Three from the same team in the same year almost never happens. Only time, as far as I can tell, was '96 with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman. You have to be that great to have three.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 07:43:16 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I actually like Crowder's chances.  He's been getting a lot of respect around the league, being called a borderline All-Star and what not.  I think voters actually like guys like him. 

Contrary to what some people, like Big333223 right above me, say about undeserving superstars on the All-Defensive team, I think this is rarely the case.  Just in the past few years we've seen guys like Tony Allen, Patrick Beverly, Andrew Bogut, Andre Iguodala, Shane Battier, Thabo Sefolosha, etc. on the All-Defensive teams.  These are all guys who were averaging less than 10ppg when they were selected.  I think the voters love these types of guys, and know voting them to the All-Defensive team is the only time they'll ever be able to get respect as they'll most likely never be an All-Star or win All-NBA, MVP, or SMOY.  I actually think not being a superstar sometimes helps you get selected to All-Defense, I don't think the bar is as high for non-superstars.

Also Smart and Bradley might split the vote at the guard position, while Crowder doesn't have that same competion (if a voter was looking to reward a C for their great team defense).


For reference, last years All-Defensive teams:

1st
Tony Allen
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard
DeAndre Jordan
Chris Paul

2nd
John Wall
Tim Duncan
Anthony Davis
Jimmy Butler
Andrew Bogut

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony Allen, John Wall, and Tim Duncan drop off, and questionable on Butler.  Also don't think LeBron will be added in.  I see some available spots for Bradley, Smart, and Crowder.
It's gotten better and last year's team was pretty good but look no further than Kobe Bryant making the team from '06-'12 as evidence that stars get special attention. John Wall is terrific but was he really a better defender than Avery Bradley or Danny Green last season? Probably not.
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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 08:38:38 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I think Avery probably makes the second team and that's it. As previous posters have mentioned it takes time for your reputation to catch up with your production, so it's probably too early for Smart or Crowder.


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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2016, 08:46:44 PM »

Online bdm860

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I actually like Crowder's chances.  He's been getting a lot of respect around the league, being called a borderline All-Star and what not.  I think voters actually like guys like him. 

Contrary to what some people, like Big333223 right above me, say about undeserving superstars on the All-Defensive team, I think this is rarely the case.  Just in the past few years we've seen guys like Tony Allen, Patrick Beverly, Andrew Bogut, Andre Iguodala, Shane Battier, Thabo Sefolosha, etc. on the All-Defensive teams.  These are all guys who were averaging less than 10ppg when they were selected.  I think the voters love these types of guys, and know voting them to the All-Defensive team is the only time they'll ever be able to get respect as they'll most likely never be an All-Star or win All-NBA, MVP, or SMOY.  I actually think not being a superstar sometimes helps you get selected to All-Defense, I don't think the bar is as high for non-superstars.

Also Smart and Bradley might split the vote at the guard position, while Crowder doesn't have that same competion (if a voter was looking to reward a C for their great team defense).


For reference, last years All-Defensive teams:

1st
Tony Allen
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard
DeAndre Jordan
Chris Paul

2nd
John Wall
Tim Duncan
Anthony Davis
Jimmy Butler
Andrew Bogut

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony Allen, John Wall, and Tim Duncan drop off, and questionable on Butler.  Also don't think LeBron will be added in.  I see some available spots for Bradley, Smart, and Crowder.
It's gotten better and last year's team was pretty good but look no further than Kobe Bryant making the team from '06-'12 as evidence that stars get special attention. John Wall is terrific but was he really a better defender than Avery Bradley or Danny Green last season? Probably not.

I know this is a Celtics blog, and we all hate Kobe, but are you saying he's wasn't a great defender during that period?

Here's some examples. 2010 playoffs, Lakers/Thunder 1st round.  Series tied 2-2, with Russell Westbrook shooting 55% averaging 20ppg.  Lakers put Kobe on Westbrook for next 2 games, Westbrook shoots 33%.

Look at this full court D on Dwyane Wade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCVP9L25vk

He once held a prime Allen Iverson to 0-11 shooting.  (Though admittedly this is outside of the window you're claiming).

Go type in "Kobe lockdown" or "Kobe defense" into youtube and see how many great examples come up.

Kobe was a great defender, that's why he was All-Defense all those years.  Not because he was a superstar.  Now if you want to argue maybe towards the last couple of years during that run that he got selected based more on reputation, I can accept that, but again that's based on the reputation of being a great defender, not of being a superstar.  Similar to how Bruce Bowen was elected All-Defense 8 straight years even though his last couple might have been more because of reputation than performance.

The NBA All-Defensive teams have always had a pretty good balance between superstars and non-superstars (and let's not forget part of what makes somebody a superstar is that they're usually great on both sides of the ball).  I personally don't think there's a superstar bias when it comes to All-Defensive team selections (and if anything, I'd argue the bias tends to go the other way, but that's another discussion).

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Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2016, 08:47:54 PM »

Offline Denis998

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I know with the eye test Bradley is a great defender, but what stats actually back up that assumption?

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2016, 09:26:59 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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Smart and Crowder should be in 1st and 2nd team respectively (I think they'll give it to James though, personally).

Bradley deserves it too

Re: Celtics on 2016 All-NBA Defensive Team?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2016, 10:03:16 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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I think Smart, AB, and Crowder all need to be on there.  I listed them in the order of how good I think they are personally.
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