Author Topic: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz  (Read 7585 times)

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Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2016, 09:01:28 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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If you're trading away the one All Star we have, and the teams best scorer, you better be bringing back Hayward to start.

Or at the very least prospect like Exum and a pick.

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2016, 09:33:45 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Good lord no, Danny would never do that deal. 

Mostly because he is still quite young as a GM with a long career ahead of him, and probably doesn't have look fondly on the idea of committing career suicide and getting himself fired. 

Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

He's inefficient right now because he's the main option. If you get better players, he's no longer the primary focus of the offense. If anything, he's more efficient and helpful.

I'm not sure why people think of Isaiah Thomas as being inefficient.

This year he is averaging 21.4 PPG on 16.5 FGA (1.3 Points Per FGA) which is incredibly close to Lebron's numbers (1.33 Points Per FGA). 

Isaiah Thomas is a solid three point shooter, and he is elite at getting to the line (and making them when he does).  Those are basically the two ways you can get bonus points in basketball - threes and free throws. 

Thomas' scoring efficiency is actually very good,  and even better once you factor in his assists (i.e Points Responsible For).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 09:51:20 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2016, 09:52:22 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If you're trading away the one All Star we have, and the teams best scorer, you better be bringing back Hayward to start.

Or at the very least prospect like Exum and a pick.

I still wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't trade Thomas for Hayward, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade him for Exum (too much risk). 

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2016, 01:59:59 AM »

Offline sawick48

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Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

Yep.  This exactly.  Not in love with the return on this trade, but I am on board 100% with trading IT2 before his contract is up.  His value will never be higher, and he needs to be a teams top 3 leading scorer to play the kind of basketball he's best suited to play.  Catch is, you aren't sniffing a title if he's one of your top 3 scorers.  He's Jamal Crawford with better passing and less clutch scoring.

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2016, 02:38:07 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

He's inefficient right now because he's the main option. If you get better players, he's no longer the primary focus of the offense. If anything, he's more efficient and helpful.

agree , why trade away a talent like IT on a huge bargain contract ? same with ab and crowder . Unless you are getting back a Griffin, Cousins or Dwight type .

Their cheap contracts will allow us to go after 2 max contracts while having a #3 seed in place already .

PLUS

Atop 5 pick next year ( maybe 3 straight years?)

Now we just need someone actually worth a max deal to be available  :-\ .

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2016, 02:54:21 AM »

Offline Rondo9

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Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

Yep.  This exactly.  Not in love with the return on this trade, but I am on board 100% with trading IT2 before his contract is up.  His value will never be higher, and he needs to be a teams top 3 leading scorer to play the kind of basketball he's best suited to play.  Catch is, you aren't sniffing a title if he's one of your top 3 scorers.  He's Jamal Crawford with better passing and less clutch scoring.

Why can't he be your top 3 scorer?

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2016, 03:31:20 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

Yep.  This exactly.  Not in love with the return on this trade, but I am on board 100% with trading IT2 before his contract is up.  His value will never be higher, and he needs to be a teams top 3 leading scorer to play the kind of basketball he's best suited to play.  Catch is, you aren't sniffing a title if he's one of your top 3 scorers.  He's Jamal Crawford with better passing and less clutch scoring.

The main difference is that Jamal Crawford has never been a good player while Thomas has produced like an above-average player (because he is one) for his entire career.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2016, 03:31:56 AM »

Online jpotter33

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Since it wouldn't make sense for them to give us Favors or Hayward for IT, I say IT and Turner for Exum and Hood. It works for them because it gives them the point guard they desperately need and another vet wing that has playoff experience. If they're wanting to win now rather than develop and be patient with Exum coming back from injury, then this is a good trade for them to upgrade their team now. For us, it gives us a potential ridiculous future backcourt in Exum and Smart, and if you can add a good wing or big with the Brooklyn pick, then your core would be pretty stacked with top talent. Hell, this would even allow us to trade Bradley and Crowder for even more assets (or keep around for vet presence), and even just adding a Poeltl in the draft would make us a really solid young team with tons of potential and room to grow.

PG: Exum, Rozier
SG: Smart, Hunter
SF: Hood, Young
PF: KO, Mickey
C: Poeltl, Zeller

Granted, after our recent success I really don't want to trade away any major pieces unless it brings back a star now and makes us better now. Also, we have so many pieces and assets as it is, there's really no more need to acquire assets, and we really need to start consolidating those assets for better quality pieces.

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2016, 04:53:50 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Gobert and Lyles for IT makes better sense. Then move Crowder to Rockets for Capela and filers. Fillers, Lyles, Lee and 2 first (Dallas and C's) for Galo and Faried.

Smart/Rozier
AB/Turner/Hunter
Galo/JJ/Young
Faried/AJ/ Sully/KO
Gobert/Capela/Mickey

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2016, 05:13:58 AM »

Offline BornReady

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Don't jazz already have exum and Burke
I'm not sure adding Thomas will help them compete with Spurs or GSW

Best for them to try developing exum

While I agree that Thomas trade value is peaking
I don't think ainge trades him as he could want to see how this squad fares in the playoffs as we r currently 3rd
Or sees Thomas as a piece to trade for superstar

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2016, 05:51:24 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Gobert and Lyles for IT makes better sense.

Why would Utah give up Gobert when he is a better player than Andre Drummond? 
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2016, 07:41:55 AM »

Offline Sketch5

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If you're trading away the one All Star we have, and the teams best scorer, you better be bringing back Hayward to start.

Or at the very least prospect like Exum and a pick.

I still wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't trade Thomas for Hayward, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade him for Exum (too much risk).

I wouldn't do it straight up either, more just pointing out if you're going to sell high, Hood and Lyles isn't were you start.

Hayward and Gobert, now you're going some where with the trade. Exum would be the guy you go after if you're just trying to get young prospects. Hood is some one you add with in a trade, but not a prospect you take a flyer on.

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2016, 10:54:23 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Gobert and Lyles for IT makes better sense.

Why would Utah give up Gobert when he is a better player than Andre Drummond?
Panic/impatient type move. IT is an All-star and they are tired of missing playoffs. Gobert is nice but they need fire power in the West. Exum can play a Smart type role as well next year. It's a mini big three with IT, Hood, Hayward, Booker, Favors. It's what many here wanted partially and some willing to deal Nets picks to make happen. Instead Jazz get it and C's end up with Smart, AB, Crowder, AJ, Gobert. C's center search is over.

Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2016, 12:48:16 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Good idea.

Most people can't accept the notion that we aren't winning any championships with Isaiah Thomas as our go to guy with his 30% usage rate.

The truth is that by the time we develop a championship team, IT probably won't be here because his bargain contract will be up.

So you're already resigned to punting the next three seasons? No way to accelerate whatever timeline you've got in mind, with cap space, with trades, with the league's largest surplus of tradeable assets, with the same GM who executed a one-year worst-to-first turnaround?

Quote
IT is awesome but as soon as we get some better players here, his usage plummets and so does his effectiveness on offense vs his defensive liabilities.

Depends on what kind of better players. If we get a DPOY-type center to add to an already elite defense, then we could contend for a championship without any of the offensive roles changing.


Yep.  This exactly.  Not in love with the return on this trade, but I am on board 100% with trading IT2 before his contract is up.  His value will never be higher, and he needs to be a teams top 3 leading scorer to play the kind of basketball he's best suited to play.  Catch is, you aren't sniffing a title if he's one of your top 3 scorers.  He's Jamal Crawford with better passing and less clutch scoring.

An aging Tony Parker led the '14 Spurs in scoring and usage. (He was also second in scoring and usage in '07. Second for '05, too, although only third in the postseason. Second for '03, also.) Jason Terry was the second-highest scorer on the '11 Mavs. Antoine Walker was the third-leading scorer for the Heat in '06. Richard Hamilton was Detroit's top scorer in '04. Derek Fisher was third in scoring for the Shaq/Kobe dynasty.

Isaiah could absolutely be a top 3 scorer on a champion. He could even be the leading scorer. Depends on what kind of team it is.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 12:53:35 PM by Dino Pitino »
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Re: Sell high: Thomas to the jazz
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2016, 12:52:18 PM »

Offline Al91

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Sean Grande made some great points on a podcast yesterday. He mentions how the Celtics have had the sixth best record and sixth best offensive efficiency rating since twelve months ago (the last Super Bowl). Much of that was sparked by IT.

I know we can look at IT's and Hood's output per game and think that they would just swap and we wouldn't be without that 20pt scorer as long as we had Hood, but that assumes that Hood will be just as good here as he is in Utah. Similarly, we'd lose one of our best play-makers.

Not a great deal in my opinion. The Celtics are far closer to win-now than the Jazz will be...and this will remain true for quite some time.
Long-form is far from dead, but please refrain from paragraph-laden posts! Who wants to read that?!