Author Topic: celts to benefit by long season  (Read 3073 times)

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celts to benefit by long season
« on: February 07, 2016, 06:17:48 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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zeller at end of last season looked gaunt and now is physically fresh and after his couple good games the press is back to saying how well he played last year vs all that chatter about being traded or not resigned,
add that to a abrupt about face by a talk show host raining j's on turner
some articles now are stating zeller one of best last year and his crazy 60% from outside and ability to roll to hoop
both players have respect and are liked by teamates,
nobody talks about another plus-durability
i think 2nd half of season favors celts with their depth and running bigs
kelly should thrive against unmotivated defences,turner and zeller ,isaiah/ zeller should benefit from space down the middle, even a cutting jerebko
our perimeter defence should intimidate 2nd half
 isaiah has a never quit motor that feasts on slowed down defences
so the celts are essentially back to last years rotation with amir added
zeller should now regain his confidence and start taking and making his outside shot,he is playing with a bit of chip after his first half sitting,
kelly should have a very good 2nd half as he is healthy and has his inside outside and passing game working-expect a much better half for him
did everbody see marcus go to hoop and take two floaters, they didn't go but they will-
 bigs run,run and run
 while perimeter defence hounds and ball hawks
isaiah just keeps pushing the ball up and frustrating the bigs and torturing the guards with change of pace and use of multiple screens
alot of games might be ugly but celts win ugly
who will want to play against a punishing, embarrassing perimeter defense
no lead will be safe  and there will be the ever threatening ability to come back against time-
isaiah will just continue his 90% free throw ability  in 4th quarter
the celts have shown thi half the ability to win or play tough every top flight team
our bench is back-with anybody capable of stepping up


« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 09:12:50 AM by rollie mass »

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2016, 09:11:25 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The more we run the harder it will be on Jared

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2016, 09:27:28 AM »

Offline jambr380

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The more we run the harder it will be on Jared

True, but Jared's minutes have been on a steady decline - averaging about 20mpg his last 10 games. With the re-emergence of Zeller, it will allow Sully to fully exert himself while he is on the court. Obviously fewer minutes isn't what Sully wants, but Stevens clearly doesn't want his players to burn out during a game (or the season). That's the value in our depth.

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2016, 09:43:23 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The more we run the harder it will be on Jared

True, but Jared's minutes have been on a steady decline - averaging about 20mpg his last 10 games. With the re-emergence of Zeller, it will allow Sully to fully exert himself while he is on the court. Obviously fewer minutes isn't what Sully wants, but Stevens clearly doesn't want his players to burn out during a game (or the season). That's the value in our depth.

Sully has been struggling with his shot, and is having trouble posting up down low against other centers, so that explains his decrease to a degree.

I don't think the re-emergence of Zeller is affecting Sullinger all that much. What's really affecting his minutes is that he sucks in small ball units, and that's been Stevens' tendency all season long with a higher emphasis on it since last month.

I'm not a fan of small ball, but if Stevens is going to use them I rather he not play Sullinger.

So a combination of struggling offense + ineffective defense on small ball units really is all the explanation needed.

I do think that if Stevens went more with the Olynyk/Sullinger combo, both of these players' minutes would increase quite a bit, and then in turn use Amir and Zeller more for small ball units in which both are better than Olynyk/Sullinger at.

I think that's the balance Stevens should look into. I think he might be hesitating a bit on that because he saw how important Olynyk was to our bench last time he was inserted in to the starting unit... and we went on probably our worst stretch this season.

BUT what misses from that analysis is that we weren't using Amir/Zeller off the bench to balance those small ball units, what misses from that analysis is that we also were missing ball handling from that bench unit at the time.

I do hope he sees this to some degree because it would make the most of our players in their respective roles.

I don't think Sullinger's play offensively and his poor role defensively in small ball units warrants him more playing time than he's getting.

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2016, 10:57:48 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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very interesting post--  tp for leaving me thinking,
could you help me with zellers defence and his inability to block or alter shots,he does not seem to have active hands is there something wrong with his technique-i'm have no experience with 7 footers and technigue they are taught-zeller seems to have very contained and cerebral style with little wasted energy or passion i think he needs timing  and consistency as well as bounce passes that are not at his knees-zeller has a good start going into 2nd half

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 11:04:35 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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He actually has soft hands around the rim. His passing is passable, his shot blocking is non-existant, but he is a guy who stays at home on D. and he can't jump of course
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Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2016, 01:16:30 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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IMO Sully is an odd fit for this team. He plays out of position, due to the fact quicker, more conditioned power forwards beat him up the court, and to specific spots, rather easily.

On defense his covers the opposing teams center, mostly because of his bulk, but then suffers when our team goes small, where he should excel, because of his lack of conditioning.

For the right price Sully would be a nice bench player for most teams.

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2016, 01:19:34 PM »

Offline mgent

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The more we run the harder it will be on Jared

The more we run, the better shape Jared will be forced to get into.  Better for us down the line, or fetches us more value in a trade.
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Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2016, 03:10:59 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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I think as fans our job is to use intuition along with our vast experience at observing the Boston Celtics over many years.

The problem with Zeller, to me, is that we have no center coach. If we do, I missed the hiring. I think Walter or some other former PF is our so-called center coach.

The C's fired Clifford Ray. It was controversial. I don't think they ever replaced him with a real center coach.

Zeller is perfect for this team. David Lee was the equivalent of trying to jam Jameer Nelson into a playing philosophy he was ill-suited for.

Rondo tried to do it Stevens' way and that's how I was able to start understanding what the long-term plan is.

But you can't teach old dogs new tricks. Green and Rondo had too many I won't call them habits but conditioned ways of playing. They might not be good examples because they were from the old regime and had side issues. Jeff Green has always been a disappointment and Rondo had major injuries, free agency, and Jackie MacMullan's ATH appearance hovering over his head.

David Lee could have worked out. Paul Pierce would have worked out. It would have taken a while, but he'd be passing and running, rotating on defense. It's all about being on the same page.

But David Lee felt the need to ball hog.

Evan Turner must be letting go of all his old habits. He is clicking with his teammates. He is clicking with us through his funny comments and personality.

Isaiah is young enough to have bought in. The power of the team will usually win over the power of the individual, say how we always used to beat on Lebron in the early years.

Rollie yet again nailed it with his commentary. He was for Zeller while most were saying he was a scrub and on the short list to be traded.

He is also correct that the Celtics are built for the long haul.

I think we can make it to the Finals. I base that on Blatt getting canned. A man needs to know his limitations.

I might disagree with Rollie as to the extent of our depth. I wouldn't include Lee, Young, Hunter or Rozier as depth. I give Jordan Mickey an incomplete. I think it has been a mistake to not give him some minutes. I know there is a logjam there, but common sense says he should now be #5 in the PF/C pecking order. We should find out now whether he has post-season potential for this year. I can visualize Mickey terrorizing Golden State and Cleveland. The key to basketball management is understanding the totality of each player in the context of team play and winning.

Rollie is correct we are basically the same team as last year, just add Amir. I would just add that many of the players from last year's core have soared this year, I mean Kelly, Avery, Turner, Crowder, Marcus and anyone I am missing. They are the same people. They are not the same players. They are much better now.

It's good to see Zeller finally coming through. He was patient and a good teammate the whole awkward time.

Our final look as a team will include plenty of running, passing, ferocious team defense, and apparently yes also depth. We'll end up like Calipari's "Refuse to Lose" UMASS team? I recall Cal would just keep running out fresh legs, about ten guys playing twenty minutes. That's not as easy to do in the pros, as there is much more politics to it, to go with the business side, etc..

I don't mean to diss Hunter and Rozier, but they are too raw. I don't mean to diss James Young, but he can't help us advance in playoffs this year either. Lee is simply the remnants of the penalty side of the KG/Pierce trade.

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2016, 03:31:14 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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The more we run the harder it will be on Jared

The more we run, the better shape Jared will be forced to get into.  Better for us down the line, or fetches us more value in a trade.

I thought this also for most of this season, but exercise alone will not help one lose weight. I have given up on him long-term based on his weight alone. I think he's a good, smart player, but he's out of shape in a way that says he will always be out of shape.

He has been trying to lose weight since late Spring? He must have an eating disorder? Plenty of time has elapsed. It's not as if he is 40 with a slowing metabolism. Maybe check his thyroids. Something here is not adding up. I wanted him to work out. He's unique and natural. He needs to thin down. To me this is a deal breaker. I see this team heading towards a specific team philosophy Sullinger won't be able to handle.

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2016, 04:01:44 PM »

Offline rollie mass

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hey celtics thanks for the cleanup zeller hit two from outside and with a proper bounce pass was fluid and automatic like he was at the free throw line-that chip on his shoulder got two blocks-another good outing going into 2nd half and trade deadline-zeller has just proved last year not a outlier-marcus hit a floater and his form when not rushed with proper shot selection not bad ,not bad at all--was not a fan of this game--for a bit it felt like a trap game with no defencive intensity and that they been reading to much into their press-they got to play harder with leads --carl mallone has to go this team is termially ill from front office and cousins-
tp-for all your nice long posts-have to agree in principle with depth with rookies -rj at least showed he could handle d and fit in smoothly on offence-rozier if pressed could at least fill in
maybe lees roster spot and some sort of trade in case crowder goes down-also pride your right about  a center coach -zeller is young could be a durable professional backup for long time




« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 04:42:03 PM by rollie mass »

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 04:31:09 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I think as fans our job is to use intuition along with our vast experience at observing the Boston Celtics over many years.

The problem with Zeller, to me, is that we have no center coach. If we do, I missed the hiring. I think Walter or some other former PF is our so-called center coach.

The C's fired Clifford Ray. It was controversial. I don't think they ever replaced him with a real center coach.

Zeller is perfect for this team. David Lee was the equivalent of trying to jam Jameer Nelson into a playing philosophy he was ill-suited for.

Rondo tried to do it Stevens' way and that's how I was able to start understanding what the long-term plan is.

But you can't teach old dogs new tricks. Green and Rondo had too many I won't call them habits but conditioned ways of playing. They might not be good examples because they were from the old regime and had side issues. Jeff Green has always been a disappointment and Rondo had major injuries, free agency, and Jackie MacMullan's ATH appearance hovering over his head.

David Lee could have worked out. Paul Pierce would have worked out. It would have taken a while, but he'd be passing and running, rotating on defense. It's all about being on the same page.

But David Lee felt the need to ball hog.

Evan Turner must be letting go of all his old habits. He is clicking with his teammates. He is clicking with us through his funny comments and personality.

Isaiah is young enough to have bought in. The power of the team will usually win over the power of the individual, say how we always used to beat on Lebron in the early years.

Rollie yet again nailed it with his commentary. He was for Zeller while most were saying he was a scrub and on the short list to be traded.

He is also correct that the Celtics are built for the long haul.

I think we can make it to the Finals. I base that on Blatt getting canned. A man needs to know his limitations.

I might disagree with Rollie as to the extent of our depth. I wouldn't include Lee, Young, Hunter or Rozier as depth. I give Jordan Mickey an incomplete. I think it has been a mistake to not give him some minutes. I know there is a logjam there, but common sense says he should now be #5 in the PF/C pecking order. We should find out now whether he has post-season potential for this year. I can visualize Mickey terrorizing Golden State and Cleveland. The key to basketball management is understanding the totality of each player in the context of team play and winning.

Rollie is correct we are basically the same team as last year, just add Amir. I would just add that many of the players from last year's core have soared this year, I mean Kelly, Avery, Turner, Crowder, Marcus and anyone I am missing. They are the same people. They are not the same players. They are much better now.

It's good to see Zeller finally coming through. He was patient and a good teammate the whole awkward time.

Our final look as a team will include plenty of running, passing, ferocious team defense, and apparently yes also depth. We'll end up like Calipari's "Refuse to Lose" UMASS team? I recall Cal would just keep running out fresh legs, about ten guys playing twenty minutes. That's not as easy to do in the pros, as there is much more politics to it, to go with the business side, etc..

I don't mean to diss Hunter and Rozier, but they are too raw. I don't mean to diss James Young, but he can't help us advance in playoffs this year either. Lee is simply the remnants of the penalty side of the KG/Pierce trade.

Tremendous point about NOT having a true big man coach on our staff!!  Where is Clifford Ray now?  Is he even in the NBA coaching??

Thanks,

Smitty77

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2016, 04:34:23 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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I think as fans our job is to use intuition along with our vast experience at observing the Boston Celtics over many years.

The problem with Zeller, to me, is that we have no center coach. If we do, I missed the hiring. I think Walter or some other former PF is our so-called center coach.

The C's fired Clifford Ray. It was controversial. I don't think they ever replaced him with a real center coach.

Zeller is perfect for this team. David Lee was the equivalent of trying to jam Jameer Nelson into a playing philosophy he was ill-suited for.

Rondo tried to do it Stevens' way and that's how I was able to start understanding what the long-term plan is.

But you can't teach old dogs new tricks. Green and Rondo had too many I won't call them habits but conditioned ways of playing. They might not be good examples because they were from the old regime and had side issues. Jeff Green has always been a disappointment and Rondo had major injuries, free agency, and Jackie MacMullan's ATH appearance hovering over his head.

David Lee could have worked out. Paul Pierce would have worked out. It would have taken a while, but he'd be passing and running, rotating on defense. It's all about being on the same page.

But David Lee felt the need to ball hog.

Evan Turner must be letting go of all his old habits. He is clicking with his teammates. He is clicking with us through his funny comments and personality.

Isaiah is young enough to have bought in. The power of the team will usually win over the power of the individual, say how we always used to beat on Lebron in the early years.

Rollie yet again nailed it with his commentary. He was for Zeller while most were saying he was a scrub and on the short list to be traded.

He is also correct that the Celtics are built for the long haul.

I think we can make it to the Finals. I base that on Blatt getting canned. A man needs to know his limitations.

I might disagree with Rollie as to the extent of our depth. I wouldn't include Lee, Young, Hunter or Rozier as depth. I give Jordan Mickey an incomplete. I think it has been a mistake to not give him some minutes. I know there is a logjam there, but common sense says he should now be #5 in the PF/C pecking order. We should find out now whether he has post-season potential for this year. I can visualize Mickey terrorizing Golden State and Cleveland. The key to basketball management is understanding the totality of each player in the context of team play and winning.

Rollie is correct we are basically the same team as last year, just add Amir. I would just add that many of the players from last year's core have soared this year, I mean Kelly, Avery, Turner, Crowder, Marcus and anyone I am missing. They are the same people. They are not the same players. They are much better now.

It's good to see Zeller finally coming through. He was patient and a good teammate the whole awkward time.

Our final look as a team will include plenty of running, passing, ferocious team defense, and apparently yes also depth. We'll end up like Calipari's "Refuse to Lose" UMASS team? I recall Cal would just keep running out fresh legs, about ten guys playing twenty minutes. That's not as easy to do in the pros, as there is much more politics to it, to go with the business side, etc..

I don't mean to diss Hunter and Rozier, but they are too raw. I don't mean to diss James Young, but he can't help us advance in playoffs this year either. Lee is simply the remnants of the penalty side of the KG/Pierce trade.

Tremendous point about NOT having a true big man coach on our staff!!  Where is Clifford Ray now?  Is he even in the NBA coaching??

Thanks,

Smitty77

Ainge mentioned wanting to sign McHale as a big man coach  if he wants to come back this season .

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2016, 01:04:30 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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Zeller is our only pure center. But, we added Amir and Kelly improved with Sully as the only one strong enough to slow down big centers. Olynyk has probably eaten into Zeller's minutes the most. I am shocked at how much Kelly has improved at center.

Maybe both Kelly and Tyler are not as bad at defense as it has seemed.

I'm very happy Zeller is back as the fourth big.

Rollie, I agree Hunter has proven he can help in the rookie surprise role. Hopefully we don't need him. That would mean someone better than him got injured. Rozier also could perhaps work as a last ditch effort if Isaiah, Turner or Smart get hurt.

I have zero complaints.

Of course some things will change with no one knowing what those changes will be beforehand.

The next ten games look easy.

Amir and Kelly pushed out Zeller. Maybe the success of Amir, Kelly, and Tyler will push out Sullinger. Tough decisions are on the horizon.

Meanwhile, the games continue and nine out of ten wins feels good.

You were also correct about Marcus Smart. You went against the grain consensus. You were correct about Turner.

And I agree with rondohondo's idea McHale should sign on with the Celtics as center coach. Kevin never seemed happy coaching actual games, but he did seem to enjoy coaching as teaching. His daughter died. He was stuck in Houston with divas. I don't know if Kevin McHale is a good head coach or GM, but I think it would make sense to join forces with Danny Ainge. He could do some t.v. and scouting, regroup and work out what he wants to do.

I don't think we're maximizing Zeller's and Olynyk's development. McHale would help. Maybe McHale needs time to himself and this is selfishness, that it'll happen if and when it happens.

Maybe I am overrating this idea of a center coach.

Years ago a friend and I used to wonder if maybe because Doc and Danny were both guards, they were guard-centric, and maybe that was one of the reasons we never seemed to figure out the front court. We had Erden, Steamer. I remember some guys we had who seemed decent but then they were gone.

I am still confused over what happened with Darko. He played a couple bad minutes in one game and Doc had seen enough. Maybe if Doc had been a center, not a guard, Darko would have stayed. It's not like Darko was the equivalent of Fab Melo. He was probably a form of Evan Turner destroyed by the expectations game.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 01:10:43 PM by CelticPride2016 »

Re: celts to benefit by long season
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2016, 02:17:07 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Boston was always going to be a better regular season team because of the depth.  It will not however be a very good playoff team because depth doesn't matter nearly as much in the post season.
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