Author Topic: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.  (Read 9911 times)

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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2016, 05:10:29 PM »

Offline chambers

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Are you being contrarian just for kicks or what?
He's 34% career from three (and he's been about 37% for the last five years). The breakeven, statistically, for a player to earn the green light is about 32.5%

He's also been double teamed for his entire career.
   
He was not a great shooter as a rookie.   This post was about comparing rookies, perhaps you did not understand that or read the whole thread.  It really has nothing to do the improvement in his shot or the last five years.   It was about rookie LeBron to rookie Simmons.   Not been in the league 10+ years LeBron against incoming Ben Simmmons.

You can post all the stats in the world but yours are not in the same context as the OP.  Which makes them utterly irrelevant.

If you've got a bee in your bonnet go take a walk. You just quoted me without including the pearljammer10 quote to which I was directly responding. Also, for what it's worth, the OP on this thread is chambers, who hasn't weighed in one way or the other about how well Lebron James could shoot it.

The argument goes "Hey, look, Lebron James-- like Ben Simmons-- wasn't a great shooter when he was a rookie. Based on that data point, maybe we shouldn't assume that shooting will be some kind of achilles heel that undoes Simmons' potential for greatness." Pearljammer10 wants to take things in some other direction by rejecting the premise that Lebron is or was ever a good shooter.

Which is obviously wrong and should be corrected.

So I corrected him.


I said (as does the video, save Griffin) that at the same age, the comparison players all had some kind of shooting ability. Lebron at Simmons age was a 29% 3 point shooter. At age 20 he was a 35% three point shooter on 4 attempts a game.
Right now at 19 years old and after 758 minutes played, Simmons has attempted exactly three 3 pt shots this season. Vs High school athletes he shot 29%, but from a high school three and with even more of a size/athleticism advantage. To go from 51 attempts in a high school season to 3 attempts after 22 games in the NCAA is not the sign of someone with capable shooting ability.

The common critique on Ben is that he doesn't have anything that even resembles a mid range to 3 point game, and I think it's fair to say that these comparison players all have better shooting games than Ben did at this age.

Don't get me wrong, if we get the #1 pick, I'll gladly take Simmons.
Some people just seem to think he's the answer to the Celtics championship dreams- but he's a looooonnng way away from that.

Anyway my argument is that unlike Lebron and Beaseley, Simmons doesn't have anything close to resembling an NBA caliber jumpshot. Some argue that it needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch.

Again, would gladly take Ben with #1, but he is a poor shooter with terrible form and will need to, and likely will, work very, very hard on that jumpshot to become a perimeter threat and draw defenders out in the NBA.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 05:16:50 PM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2016, 06:20:01 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Reminds me of a taller more athletic Draymond Green.

I think a rich man's Odom is a pretty good projection. 

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2016, 05:33:33 PM »

Offline chambers

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vs Auburn

21, 13, 7.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovWrlaq-ieI

As someone said in this thread, the biggest difference between Simmons and Beasely is Simmons passing ability to pass and willingness to pass.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2016, 06:08:43 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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Have those of you who think he's shot needs fixing watched him play? Looks like a pretty sweet stroke to me.

To his credit his focus on distributing has his team playing much better, they're in first in the SEC.  I think he's a classic make everyone around him better type player.

Good thing we've got the winning the lottery thing all sewn up.   ;)

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2016, 06:28:49 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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-Has crushing size and passing vision, but lacks shooting stroke that guys like the above and Lebron all had at his age.

Lebron was not a good shooter when he came into the league.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1966/lebron-james


.42% from the field.  29% from the three point line.

What shooting stroke are you speaking of?

Lebron is still not a good shooter and never has been.

I know right? Shooting 60% from 2pt and 40% from 3pt over the course of an entire season is TRASH.

He's only shot above 36% from three 3 times in his 13 year career.

For his career Lebron has shot 35.8% from 10-16 feet, 38.8% on twos outside 16 feet, 33.8% from three, and 74.4% on free throws.

This year he's shooting 34.1% / 38.8% / 26.4% / 72.0% from those areas.   

By comparison Isaiah Thomas has shot 41.6% / 40.3% / 36.1% / 86.7% from those areas for his career, despite the fact that he is 5'9" and doesn't have the luxury of being able to shoot over defenders.

Lebron is not a good shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but he is a competent shooter. 

He's an elite offensive player because:

1) He's a dominant finisher in the paint (shot 72.5% inside three feet for his career)
2) He's elite at getting to the line (42.6% Free Throw Rate for his career)
3) He doesn't have a good jumper, but he can hit it well enough that the D must respect it
4) He has the combined size/strength/agility to get where he wants at will
5) He's a good enough passer that you can't throw all of your attention on him, or he can make you pay

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2016, 06:31:26 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Who needs him

We got

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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2016, 07:50:51 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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A friend of mine has been insisting all season that Simmons big stats are a result of weaker competition and a big role on a weak program.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2016, 08:15:21 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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You should watch him.

LSU actually has a pretty good starting 5.  Blakeney and Quarterman will probably end up in the NBA, and Victor is solid underneath.  Hornsby (Bruce's kid) is a good shooter.  I'd actually argue his stats would be much better if he was more selfish.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2016, 08:29:19 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Have those of you who think he's shot needs fixing watched him play? Looks like a pretty sweet stroke to me.

To his credit his focus on distributing has his team playing much better, they're in first in the SEC.  I think he's a classic make everyone around him better type player.

Good thing we've got the winning the lottery thing all sewn up.   ;)
I haven't seen a ton of him but when I've watched him shoot, his stroke looks fine to me. I'm also not worried about his shooting because he shoot a solid 70% from the FT. I think that bodes well that he'd at least be able to learn to shoot if he puts in the work and he seems like a hard working kid.

I'm kind surprised no one has compared Simmons to Chris Webber yet.
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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2016, 08:36:30 PM »

Offline max215

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I feel like there's a pretty big disconnect between those who actually watch Simmons and those who don't. B$PN will try to sell Simmons as LeBron 2.0, the great Australian hope, some sort of savior. He is none of these. He is a deeply flawed prospect. But that is most certainly not something to freak out about, because he is a PROSPECT, and a very good, if not outstanding one at that. I really like Simmons, and I'd be thrilled if we got him #1 Overall. Heck, I'd probably even go and buy a Ben Simmons jersey. However, we cannot expect averages of 21/6/6 as a rookie. Nor can we expect him to be an MVP, much less a 4x MVP. And all of this is okay.
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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2016, 08:42:14 PM »

Offline max215

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Have those of you who think he's shot needs fixing watched him play? Looks like a pretty sweet stroke to me.

To his credit his focus on distributing has his team playing much better, they're in first in the SEC.  I think he's a classic make everyone around him better type player.

Good thing we've got the winning the lottery thing all sewn up.   ;)
I haven't seen a ton of him but when I've watched him shoot, his stroke looks fine to me. I'm also not worried about his shooting because he shoot a solid 70% from the FT. I think that bodes well that he'd at least be able to learn to shoot if he puts in the work and he seems like a hard working kid.

I'm kind surprised no one has compared Simmons to Chris Webber yet.

I think I've seen the Webber comp before. Definitely makes some sense.
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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2016, 03:57:43 PM »

Offline spikelovetheCelts

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A friend of mine has been insisting all season that Simmons big stats are a result of weaker competition and a big role on a weak program.
He is the real deal. Ingram could out do him in the Long Run. He looked good against Oklahom and Kentucky. He is not going to move to 3rd.
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Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2016, 06:36:14 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

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A friend of mine has been insisting all season that Simmons big stats are a result of weaker competition and a big role on a weak program.

If he had a coach worth a flip his stats would be even better. That LSU team just does what they want. That's not a 8 loss team on talent. He can't shoot yet. He doesn't even try. Think he's made one 3 all season.

A little too passive. Very similar to Wiggins at Kansas. Is it the program or his real demeanor tho? All that said, his upside too good. You take him #1 and don't even think twice about it.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2016, 06:52:40 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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I feel like there's a pretty big disconnect between those who actually watch Simmons and those who don't. B$PN will try to sell Simmons as LeBron 2.0, the great Australian hope, some sort of savior. He is none of these. He is a deeply flawed prospect. But that is most certainly not something to freak out about, because he is a PROSPECT, and a very good, if not outstanding one at that. I really like Simmons, and I'd be thrilled if we got him #1 Overall. Heck, I'd probably even go and buy a Ben Simmons jersey. However, we cannot expect averages of 21/6/6 as a rookie. Nor can we expect him to be an MVP, much less a 4x MVP. And all of this is okay.

I've watched him, and I'm obviously missing the "deeply flawed prospect".  Shooting is I guess what you're referring to, and I don't think he's that far away.  He doesn't have Lebron's raw athleticism, but who does?  I think at the same age he's a more polished player, especially with his passing.  He has an obvious feel for the game.

Re: New Draft Express comparisons for Ben Simmons...fairly critical of Big Ben.
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2016, 07:14:09 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Been saying this kid has bust written all over him.  Ingram is the target, otherwise trade the pick
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:29:15 PM by cltc5 »