Author Topic: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton  (Read 4647 times)

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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2016, 02:36:14 PM »

Offline BballTim

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my favorite 'best case scanrio' comparison for Smart is Chauncey Billups.
Came in as a solid defender, capable guard.
Honed his shooting, honed his dribbling ability and learnt how to run a team.

Became an All Star and crucial piece of Detroit's most recent two championships.

  Billups got somehow sidetracked in the pros but he was a very good scorer with a nice jump shot in college.

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 02:42:36 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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my favorite 'best case scanrio' comparison for Smart is Chauncey Billups.
Came in as a solid defender, capable guard.
Honed his shooting, honed his dribbling ability and learnt how to run a team.

Became an All Star and crucial piece of Detroit's most recent two championships.

  Billups got somehow sidetracked in the pros but he was a very good scorer with a nice jump shot in college.
Yeah, odd comparison.

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 02:48:06 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Gary Payton is a 47% career shooter. That is all.

 True. But coach has him jacking three's for his long term development. If Payton were shooting 4 3 point attempts per game, his FG% would have really suffered
Poor Gary Payton, how did he ever develop when his coach never had him jacking up threes.

... by the way, Payton has 4 seasons with 4+ three attempts per game. His overall shooting percentage in those? 48, 45, 43, 45.

Marcus Smart will never be as good as Gary Payton, and that's ok.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 02:52:31 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Anything is possible.

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2016, 03:01:44 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Anything is possible.
Of course. It's just that some things aren't very probable.
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 03:02:48 PM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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I think Billups is the best comparison. Carried a team on his back in college, similar to smart. More of a "hero guard" than a point guard. Big, physical body, rugged defender. Didn't shoot very well his first couple years in the league.

Don't get caught up in a guy's FG percentages his first 1-2 years in the league. If those were predictive of one's career, Dirk Nowitzki would have been dumped a lot years ago. These things take time.

Just use your eyeballs. Smart has made a lot of offensive improvement this year after shooting horribly the first couple weeks of the season. He's smoother in the pick and roll after being a train wreck at it last year. His form and rhythm shooting the three looks a lot better (never mind the percentages). He's starting to go to the hoop more often, though he's still having trouble finishing.

Kid doesn't have to be a hall of famer. If he's a good (not great) offensive player while sticking to his current level of defensive, that's a superbly impactful player for your team.
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 03:10:54 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Just use your eyeballs.
My eyeballs are telling me that Smart has zero offensive game other than launching up threes and hoping some of them stick. Also, looking on how he has zero offensive game is telling me that it's going to be very hard for him to develop one down the road. We're looking at Tony Allen with a less atrocious three-point shot here, folks, not Chauncey Billups or Gary Payton.
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2016, 03:17:30 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Gary Payton is a 47% career shooter. That is all.

 True. But coach has him jacking three's for his long term development. If Payton were shooting 4 3 point attempts per game, his FG% would have really suffered
Poor Gary Payton, how did he ever develop when his coach never had him jacking up threes.

... by the way, Payton has 4 seasons with 4+ three attempts per game. His overall shooting percentage in those? 48, 45, 43, 45.

Marcus Smart will never be as good as Gary Payton, and that's ok.







 Yes, but you fail to mention he didn't attempt 4 three's per game until he was 28 years old.

 What was Paytons 3point% early on?

 .077%
 .130%
 .206%.  24 years Old.

 Smart will not be as good as Payton I know. But he's already a better three point shooter at .316% career % at 21_years old

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2016, 04:25:03 PM »

Offline Jon

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The only thing that stats from Gary Payton's early career prove is that having mediocre stats in your early 20s doesn't preclude a Hall of Fame career. It does not, however, prove anything about Marcus Smart becoming the next Gary Payton. Plenty of players have had similar stats to Payton early in his career and never amounted to anything.

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2016, 04:32:31 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Gary Payton is a 47% career shooter. That is all.

 True. But coach has him jacking three's for his long term development. If Payton were shooting 4 3 point attempts per game, his FG% would have really suffered
Poor Gary Payton, how did he ever develop when his coach never had him jacking up threes.

... by the way, Payton has 4 seasons with 4+ three attempts per game. His overall shooting percentage in those? 48, 45, 43, 45.

Marcus Smart will never be as good as Gary Payton, and that's ok.







 Yes, but you fail to mention he didn't attempt 4 three's per game until he was 28 years old.

 What was Paytons 3point% early on?

 .077%
 .130%
 .206%.  24 years Old.

 Smart will not be as good as Payton I know. But he's already a better three point shooter at .316% career % at 21_years old
This isn't really a discussion about Smart's three point shooting, by the way (you brought that in), it's about his complete lack of other redeeming offensive qualities. That's a fact whether or not he's shooting 4 threes a game. He's 42% career on two-point shots, and is really pretty awful from everywhere on the floor.
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 04:44:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I've gone into a lot of detail in past threads about why Payton - Smart is a flawed comparison.

Payton was actually a pretty good finisher and mid-range shooter his second year in the league.  He barely ever shot a three pointer.

Smart takes almost half his shots from outside.  He started this year horribly and has been shooting at a torrid pace for a few weeks now.  So far in the league, though, his offensive success has been predicated on hitting shots from deep.

So far this year, Smart's finishing inside is markedly worse than last year (last year it was about average).  He's improved significantly from mid-range.  His three pointer has vacillated between scorching and non-existent.  His free throw rate has gone up from last year; he's getting close to 4 attempts per 36 minutes.

Threes and free throws, that's going to be the basis of Smart's offensive game, if he turns into a consistent offensive option.


Defensively, you can see the comparison.  But I think overall, Chauncey Billups is a much better best-case-scenario type comparison.
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 04:58:20 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Gary Payton is a 47% career shooter. That is all.

 True. But coach has him jacking three's for his long term development. If Payton were shooting 4 3 point attempts per game, his FG% would have really suffered
Poor Gary Payton, how did he ever develop when his coach never had him jacking up threes.

... by the way, Payton has 4 seasons with 4+ three attempts per game. His overall shooting percentage in those? 48, 45, 43, 45.

Marcus Smart will never be as good as Gary Payton, and that's ok.







 Yes, but you fail to mention he didn't attempt 4 three's per game until he was 28 years old.

 What was Paytons 3point% early on?

 .077%
 .130%
 .206%.  24 years Old.

 Smart will not be as good as Payton I know. But he's already a better three point shooter at .316% career % at 21_years old
He's also better from 3 than Shaq. Also not relevant.

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 04:58:38 PM »

Online Moranis

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Payton didn't shoot very man 3 pointers until his 5th year when he was over 30%.  Payton however was a much better 2 point shooter than Smart is.  Smart has been under 43% from 2 point range both his seasons.  Payton's rookie year he was at 46% and that was the lowest of his career. 
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Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 05:22:15 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Gary Payton is a 47% career shooter. That is all.

 True. But coach has him jacking three's for his long term development. If Payton were shooting 4 3 point attempts per game, his FG% would have really suffered
Poor Gary Payton, how did he ever develop when his coach never had him jacking up threes.

... by the way, Payton has 4 seasons with 4+ three attempts per game. His overall shooting percentage in those? 48, 45, 43, 45.

Marcus Smart will never be as good as Gary Payton, and that's ok.

Stylistically on the offensive end Payton and Smart are nothing alike, but let's objectively look at Payton's development here. The dude was a bad offensive player his first two seasons in the league. He had a 47-48% TS through his first two years which is about where Smart has been thus far. The biggest difference is that Payton came into the league two years after Smart did. Payton was shooting a 48% TS at the age of 23 in the NBA. That's not good at all. He didn't become a good offensive player until his 4th year at the age of 25, and he didn't become an efficient offensive player until the age of 26. That's when he hit his stride and proceeded to make 8-9 all star teams. He really only had 4-5 years of really good, efficient basketball, and that was between ages 26-30. Don't get me wrong, though, he was still a really good playmaker and amazing defender between ages 31-34, but he probably would have been better off taking a few less shots at that point in his career..

So yeah, very different styles, but in the sense that Smart will take time to develop his particular style, I see the OP's point. Same could be said about guys like Billups and Lowry. Sometimes players take a lot of time to develop their offensive games. I think Smart has the will and work ethic that those three players had. He will figure it out in his own way just like they did.

Tempering my expectations for his offensive game, I see Smart as a 13-15/5/5 player in his prime with all first team defense; however, I wouldn't put it past him to develop into a 17-20 PPG guy one day. He has a lot to work with and a very good work ethic.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 05:32:26 PM by DarkAzcura »

Re: Smart is on track to becoming Gary Payton
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 07:50:35 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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my favorite 'best case scanrio' comparison for Smart is Chauncey Billups.
Came in as a solid defender, capable guard.
Honed his shooting, honed his dribbling ability and learnt how to run a team.

Became an All Star and crucial piece of Detroit's most recent two championships.

Yeah, I can see that.

Except Billups was a borderline elite outside shooter, which I'm not sure Smart has the potential to ever be..but other than that I can see it. 

Billups was never a natural PG in terms of his passing ability - was good enough, but not outstanding.  Solid rebounder, strong physically. 

Aside from the shooting ability (which is a big one) I can see that.