Making a Murderer

[KeepRondo]

But it was ok for the DA to give false information that mislead the public to the media before the trial began? You can't have it both ways Pho.

I'm not trying to have it both ways, I'm just suggesting what I think would be at play if they tried to get another trial.

I understand that. It's certainly a possibility.

But was it fair for the jurors to be influenced by the lies spread by the DA and media before the trial begun? Also, the defense lawyer keeps mentioning there is new evidence. Has anyone heard what this evidence is?

[celticsclay]

I can see how people think there is a chance that Avery did it, but is there anyone that actually thinks that the Kid did it? That was the most ridiculous part of the whole thing to me. There was not a shred of evidence against the Kid in anything I have ever read. He was also right at the threshold of being learning disabled, but somehow could not crack or implicate himself in some way on the stand if he actually did anything>

[BDeCosta26]

I can see how people think there is a chance that Avery did it, but is there anyone that actually thinks that the Kid did it? That was the most ridiculous part of the whole thing to me. There was not a shred of evidence against the Kid in anything I have ever read. He was also right at the threshold of being learning disabled, but somehow could not crack or implicate himself in some way on the stand if he actually did anything>

I think the kid is pretty clearly innocent. The taped "confession" is down right heart breaking. They pressure him so hard, emphasizing how "if he tells the truth it will be okay", and basically feeding him details to repeat back to them despite him sticking to his original story of not being involved for a while. You feel terrible for that kid watching the tape, because he clearly has no idea what he's talking about. The cops basically tell him everything to say, and after he basically confesses to raping, murdering and maiming Ms.Halbach, he says "I have a project due in 6th period, can I go back now" so he clearly has no idea what he's even saying. He's just saying whatever he thinks they wanna hear.

Based on the evidence found at Avery's home, there is literally NO possible WAY Ms.Halbach died the way Dassey describes in the confession. The whole thing is just ridiculous. The story changes every single time he tells it because he's basing his answers off the info the cops are feeding to him. The poop kid doesn't even know what the word "inconsistent" means.

[PhoSita]

But was it fair for the jurors to be influenced by the lies spread by the DA and media before the trial begun?

No, and unfortunately I don't think that sort of thing is unique to this case.

[Neurotic Guy]

I can see how people think there is a chance that Avery did it, but is there anyone that actually thinks that the Kid did it? That was the most ridiculous part of the whole thing to me. There was not a shred of evidence against the Kid in anything I have ever read. He was also right at the threshold of being learning disabled, but somehow could not crack or implicate himself in some way on the stand if he actually did anything>

Sorry if it sounds jerky to correct this, but Dassey was actually on the threshold of MR. 
 Not saying he couldn't have been involved but 1) if involved his guilt should be mitigated by the likelihood that he was manipulated to participate -- a borderline MR 15 year old may be responsible for his own actions to some extent, but in fairness you'd want to think of him cognitively as 10 or 11.    2) you'd want more evidence than a retracted confession that was obtained using questionable tactics and without guidance of a parent or lawyer.  Incredibly unfair even  if he were guilty. 
Also, his initial public defender was astoundingly incompetent  (kindest word i could think of).

[PhoSita]

The forced confession of a kid who clearly was not capable of understanding his circumstances and just wanted to tell the police what he thought they wanted to hear, without a lawyer or any kind of responsible adult present, was easily the most disturbing part of the documentary for me.

[kozlodoev]

Any thoughts on his motive? I just don't understand why he would do it.  That's the part that I don't get.  He was about to be a very rich person and he threw his life away?

Heard of Aaron Hernandez?

[BDeCosta26]

Sorry double post.

[celticsclay]

The forced confession of a kid who clearly was not capable of understanding his circumstances and just wanted to tell the police what he thought they wanted to hear, without a lawyer or any kind of responsible adult present, was easily the most disturbing part of the documentary for me.

Yea as another poster said he was talking about missing a wwf wrestling match and asking if he could go back to school after the confession. I don't even know why the prosecutors wanted that kid to go jail, but why did they even bother with the kid after Avery went to Jail? They obviously had huge motives to want to put Avery away and even perhaps some legitmate belief he killed the woman or was dangerous to society. However, I don't believe the kid had ever even done a misdemeanor before and now has spent what, 10 years in jail?

[Neurotic Guy]

Any thoughts on his motive? I just don't understand why he would do it.  That's the part that I don't get.  He was about to be a very rich person and he threw his life away?

Heard of Aaron Hernandez?

I guess it speaks to a mental health/ emotional control issue.   Hernandez had a drug issue that exacerbated his problem. 

The only explanation that makes sense to me is some kind of compulsion issue.  This isn't meant to excuse him in any way (if he did it), but explains motive as related to a compulsion rather than a typical or logical motive.  What would surprise me is if this was the first time.  That wouldn't make any sense. 

[ederson]

The forced confession of a kid who clearly was not capable of understanding his circumstances and just wanted to tell the police what he thought they wanted to hear, without a lawyer or any kind of responsible adult present, was easily the most disturbing part of the documentary for me.

Isn`t this enough to show that the police wanted by any means to put Avery in prison?
Do we really want the police to decide who is innocent and who isn`t?

[Big333223]

Nobody actually believes the cops killed Theresa Halbach. Avery doesn't and his defense team didn't and I don't think you could reasonably conclude from all of the information out there. But that doesn't mean the cops didn't try to pin the murder on him.

I think the easiest explanation is that someone murdered Halbach near Avery's property shortly after she took pictures of the van and decided to hide her vehicle in the salvage yard. When her disappearance was reported and the cops knew that Avery was the last person to see her alive, they assumed that Avery did it and went about making sure he was convicted, regardless of whether or not he was actually guilty.

I believe the simplest explanation is generally going to be the right one in these cases.

You are suggesting that a third party and the police, acting independently of one another and at different points in the timeline, both conspired to frame Steven Avery, who was completely uninvolved in the murder of this woman even though he was the only one who we know interacted with her on the day in question, and the only person living anywhere near where her remains were found that actually had a personal connection to her.

That, to me, is a stretch.  To say the least.


What's more likely?

A vast conspiracy involving multiple parties acting independently?   

Or that this one guy, who has an extremely low IQ, has a history of odd, violent, deviant behavior -- which very likely got much worse in prison because that's how prison works -- murdered this woman and then did a terrible job of attempting to cover up the evidence?

This, again, is really frustrating because you're complicating something that is really simple.

If some third party killed Theresa Halbach and wanted to dump the car somewhere, the Avery's salvage yard would not just be a reasonable place to do so, it would be the sensible place to do so. It doesn't have to be someone "framing" Steven Avery or even knowing anything about him.

Same thing when we get to the police. The conspiracy doesn't have to be "vast" and it doesn't even really have to be a conspiracy. Like his lawyers said at trial, this could've been 2 cops, aided by a system that rewards convictions, instead of truth. And these were guys who already didn't like Avery, thought he might've been guilty of another crime (despite all the evidence he wasn't), and figured he was guilty of this one too and wanted to ensure he didn't get away.

Trying to pin the murder on Avery doesn't even require malice on their part. They might think he's guilty and think they're doing the right thing. But they're still wrong to have done it. But that explanation, to me, is a lot simpler than the one you'd need to come up with to explain away all of the discrepencies with the state's case.

[The One]

The recent new development (don't want to say what specifically, in case some haven't watched the series yet) motivated me to watch the series.

I liked it and am looking forward to the new episodes.

Anyone still following the story?

[Smokeeye123]

I personally think Avery killed her but the police planted evidence to surely get a conviction. They couldn't link Avery to her death directly so they stole some of his blood and put it around the scene. There's also the whole key thing along with the fact that the officer called her car in two days before it was 'discovered'. The police were facing a 26mil lawsuit and Avery handed them an easy out on a silver platter. They just needed to make sure they slammed his conviction home. I'm less interested in Avery's innocence or guilt because I honestly think he is a social deviant who acts irrationally and probably killed her. I'm more interested possible police corruption and Dassey who absolutely should sue his former lawyer.

The Dassey confession wasn't deemed permissible to use in the Avery trial but was good enough to send him to jail for 10 years?...What the heck is that logic?

[IDreamCeltics]

Nobody actually believes the cops killed Theresa Halbach. Avery doesn't and his defense team didn't and I don't think you could reasonably conclude from all of the information out there. But that doesn't mean the cops didn't try to pin the murder on him.

I think the easiest explanation is that someone murdered Halbach near Avery's property shortly after she took pictures of the van and decided to hide her vehicle in the salvage yard. When her disappearance was reported and the cops knew that Avery was the last person to see her alive, they assumed that Avery did it and went about making sure he was convicted, regardless of whether or not he was actually guilty.

I believe the simplest explanation is generally going to be the right one in these cases.

You are suggesting that a third party and the police, acting independently of one another and at different points in the timeline, both conspired to frame Steven Avery, who was completely uninvolved in the murder of this woman even though he was the only one who we know interacted with her on the day in question, and the only person living anywhere near where her remains were found that actually had a personal connection to her.

That, to me, is a stretch.  To say the least.


What's more likely?

A vast conspiracy involving multiple parties acting independently?   

Or that this one guy, who has an extremely low IQ, has a history of odd, violent, deviant behavior -- which very likely got much worse in prison because that's how prison works -- murdered this woman and then did a terrible job of attempting to cover up the evidence?

You're aware before this trial that he was on the verge of being awarded a massive amount of money for being the victim of the kind of multi-person conspiracy and frame-job you're saying is so unlikely right?