Weird Question About Race and Celtic Fans

[Big333223]

Are there any other Celtic fans out there who ever think about how it might be better for the team that its best player is a person of color and not a white guy?

For instance, when there was a chance the C's could get Kevin Love, I was for it but there was a part of me that didn't like the idea of the face of the franchise being a white guy given the history of race in Boston and the accusations of racism the team faced in the past.

I'm personally well aware of the Celtics history of commitment to both winning and diversity. The first NBA team to draft a Black player. The first NBA team to field an all-Black starting 5. The first professional sports team in the country to have a Black head coach. And certainly teams of this century have been as diverse as any. But not everyone knows all this.

I'm also aware of the type of harrassment Bill Russell and others endured during their time in Boston. And even though the league became a lot less White in the following years, Boston still built teams around Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and McHale which fanned flames of people who thought the Celtics were a racist organization. I don't believe it is. If I thought that, I wouldn't root for the team. But given that history, I do feel a little uneasy at the prospect of building the team around, say, Dragan Bender or bringing in Love as our #1.

Would I take either guy on the team, assuming they can play? Glady. Turning down talent because of my weird feelings about race would be silly and defeat the purpose of the "whatever wins" attitude the team has always taken. But those feelings still exist and I was curious if other Celtic fans ever thought about it.

For whatever its worth I am White.

[wayupnorth]

Are there any other Celtic fans out there who ever think about how it might be better for the team that its best player is a person of color and not a white guy?

For instance, when there was a chance the C's could get Kevin Love, I was for it but there was a part of me that didn't like the idea of the face of the franchise being a white guy given the history of race in Boston and the accusations of racism the team faced in the past.

I'm personally well aware of the Celtics history of commitment to both winning and diversity. The first NBA team to draft a Black player. The first NBA team to field an all-Black starting 5. The first professional sports team in the country to have a Black head coach. And certainly teams of this century have been as diverse as any. But not everyone knows all this.

I'm also aware of the type of harrassment Bill Russell and others endured during their time in Boston. And even though the league became a lot less White in the following years, Boston still built teams around Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and McHale which fanned flames of people who thought the Celtics were a racist organization. I don't believe it is. If I thought that, I wouldn't root for the team. But given that history, I do feel a little uneasy at the prospect of building the team around, say, Dragan Bender or bringing in Love as our #1.

Would I take either guy on the team, assuming they can play? Glady. Turning down talent because of my weird feelings about race would be silly and defeat the purpose of the "whatever wins" attitude the team has always taken. But those feelings still exist and I was curious if other Celtic fans ever thought about it.

For whatever its worth I am White.

Black, white, brown, yellow, red, green, or orange, if the dude is a great player and good enough person, I want them in Boston.

I find your line of thinking odd.

Do the right thing and don't care what anyone thinks.

[Neurotic Guy]

I don't think that having thoughts about how something appears to either reinforce or detract from a racial stereotype is weird at all.   Hopefully, good rational thinking following these thoughts leads you (as I think your post indicates) to sensible conclusions like -- if we're ever going to truly be color-blind as a society, that is, if we really learn to judge only by the content of character (or talent, ability, as the case may be), then we'll have to risk sometimes being thought of as racially biased.  This is simply because sometimes things just play out in ways that seem to reinforce racist images even when that isn't the intent or even a subconscious motivation.

I think our society is undergoing a long-term transition from a blatantly racist country, to a segregationist country, to a more subtle and subconscious racially biased country, and  eventually to a country in which race plays no role in predetermining our thoughts about an individual or group of people.  I think talking about the thoughts like the one you brought up in this thread is a good thing -- I think it's part of the transition process to openly put racial (not racist) thinking on the table and acknowledge that it exists and that we're in the process of getting past (working  through) this aspect of our social world. 

As an interesting side note, I expect many of you heard the quotes from Maine's Governor about the drug dealers who he characterized with "street" sounding nicknames and then stated that they come in and impregnate Maine's white girls.    Racial or racist thinking, whether blatant or subtle still infiltrates our society and frankly I'd almost rather he comes out and says something like that rather than just think it -- because it allows us to have the conversation. It faces us with the reality that racial/racist thinking is something handed down and ingrained  into all aspects of American culture.  It took gereations to create it and will take generations to undo it. 

[PhoSita]

Celts fans have cheered like heck for Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.  We've got multiple generations of Celts fans for whom the biggest faces of the team were not white.

That said, there is definitely something to the idea that white athletes get worshipped in Boston whereas athletes of color are merely loved.  Larry Bird and Tom Brady are saints in Boston.  Part of that is championships.  Part of it is that they are white.

I don't really blame people for that, though.  New England is overwhelmingly white, and you can't blame people for getting more excited about watching stars with whom they can identify more easily, especially in basketball, a sport that has been dominated by black players since the 60s.

I guess my point is, I think the attitudes of fans about race has evolved and will continue to evolve over time, but there will always be an element of getting more excited about players on the team -- especially stars -- with whom the typical fan can more easily identify, especially if there aren't a lot of players like that around the league.  Most people, I think, will always have an easier time identifying with people who look more like themselves.  That's just human nature.

Personally, I'd be lying if I told you that the degree to which I have really loved watching and cheering for Dirk and Steve Nash had nothing to do with their race.

[wayupnorth]

Celts fans have cheered like heck for Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.  We've got multiple generations of Celts fans for whom the biggest faces of the team were not white.

That said, there is definitely something to the idea that white athletes get worshipped in Boston whereas athletes of color are merely loved.  Larry Bird and Tom Brady are saints in Boston.  Part of that is championships.  Part of it is that they are white.

I don't really blame people for that, though.  New England is overwhelmingly white, and you can't blame people for getting more excited about watching stars with whom they can identify more easily, especially in basketball, a sport that has been dominated by black players since the 60s.

I guess my point is, I think the attitudes of fans about race has evolved and will continue to evolve over time, but there will always be an element of getting more excited about players on the team -- especially stars -- with whom the typical fan can more easily identify, especially if there aren't a lot of players like that around the league.  Most people, I think, will always have an easier time identifying with people who look more like themselves.  That's just human nature.

Personally, I'd be lying if I told you that the degree to which I have really loved watching and cheering for Dirk and Steve Nash had nothing to do with their race.

I don't live there, so I can only speak for my areas Celtics fans (and only those I know in my area), but the love for pierce is pretty much on the bird level, except for the fact bird was a better player.

In a strict hypothetical, do you really think if Paul was white people would root for him harder than they did as he was?

Note, this isn't to say I disagree with what you are saying, but I am curious.

[2short]

Imagine all the people
Living for today


When Russ played there was certain areas of Boston that were x American immigrants and they were without a doubt racist

I completely believe today Boston is SUCH an educated integrated city that racism IN SPORTS has no place.  I won't say that for politics and other things.  Play hard, great work ethic, team ball you can be purple

[Emmette Bryant]

Are there any other Celtic fans out there who ever think about how it might be better for the team that its best player is a person of color and not a white guy?

For instance, when there was a chance the C's could get Kevin Love, I was for it but there was a part of me that didn't like the idea of the face of the franchise being a white guy given the history of race in Boston and the accusations of racism the team faced in the past.

I'm personally well aware of the Celtics history of commitment to both winning and diversity. The first NBA team to draft a Black player. The first NBA team to field an all-Black starting 5. The first professional sports team in the country to have a Black head coach. And certainly teams of this century have been as diverse as any. But not everyone knows all this.

I'm also aware of the type of harrassment Bill Russell and others endured during their time in Boston. And even though the league became a lot less White in the following years, Boston still built teams around Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and McHale which fanned flames of people who thought the Celtics were a racist organization. I don't believe it is. If I thought that, I wouldn't root for the team. But given that history, I do feel a little uneasy at the prospect of building the team around, say, Dragan Bender or bringing in Love as our #1.

Would I take either guy on the team, assuming they can play? Glady. Turning down talent because of my weird feelings about race would be silly and defeat the purpose of the "whatever wins" attitude the team has always taken. But those feelings still exist and I was curious if other Celtic fans ever thought about it.

For whatever its worth I am White.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/3vijkd/the-colbert-report-the-word---color-bind

[Eja117]

Personally I'd like maybe a gold colored dude because it would match the championship trophy I want him to lead us to.

[GetLucky]

Celts fans have cheered like heck for Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.  We've got multiple generations of Celts fans for whom the biggest faces of the team were not white.

That said, there is definitely something to the idea that white athletes get worshipped in Boston whereas athletes of color are merely loved.  Larry Bird and Tom Brady are saints in Boston.  Part of that is championships.  Part of it is that they are white.

I don't really blame people for that, though.  New England is overwhelmingly white, and you can't blame people for getting more excited about watching stars with whom they can identify more easily, especially in basketball, a sport that has been dominated by black players since the 60s.

I guess my point is, I think the attitudes of fans about race has evolved and will continue to evolve over time, but there will always be an element of getting more excited about players on the team -- especially stars -- with whom the typical fan can more easily identify, especially if there aren't a lot of players like that around the league.  Most people, I think, will always have an easier time identifying with people who look more like themselves.  That's just human nature.

Personally, I'd be lying if I told you that the degree to which I have really loved watching and cheering for Dirk and Steve Nash had nothing to do with their race.

Pho, I'm usually all-for diving deep into sociopolitical and psychological factors, but I think you're thinking too much here. Larry Bird and Tom Brady brought 3 and 4 championships to Boston, respectively. Pierce and Garnett brought 1. There were also entire generations that grew up loving Antoine Walker and Rajon Rondo. (I still root for Rondo harder than any non-Celtics player in the NBA, and I am not African American, a Kentucky alum, or from his hometown.) There's the saying that heroes live forever but legends never die. Pierce and KG and the like were heroes. Rondo was the Robin to the Big 3's Batman, and 'Toine was both Batman and Robin (before/after Pierce). They brought fun to the ultimately fruitless years. Larry and Brady are legends. They consistently brought both greatness and results, and no Celtics player in recent history can really say that.

For the Red Sox, David Ortiz is LOVED, much more than someone like Nomar Garciaparra, a former star that never delivered a title. Pedro is perhaps the most loved Sox pitcher ever. Manny Ramirez was passionately loved for a short time (before his antics started outweighing the production), as was Randy Moss. 

I genuinely don't think that race place a role in most Celtics fans' support of the players/team. It's hard to compare the legacies of Boston's recent "stars" because the Celtics have not had a string of title runs like the Pats or Sox. I can guarantee that if Marcus Smart is a 20/10 guy for the three-peating Boston Celtics in 2025 he will be revered for his athletic prowess just as much as Brady or Bird are. 

I think the only time race would play a large factor in player popularity is when a player from a not-very-well-represented-in-the-NBA country or of a similar race reaches stardom. Examples include the Asian-American Jeremy Lin and Latvian Kristap Porzingis.

 

[Celtics4ever]

Are there any other Celtic fans out there who ever think about how it might be better for the team that its best player is a person of color and not a white guy?

It has been that way since McHale and Bird were gone.   What are you talking about.   You want to me that you think Scal was the best player in 08?   Potapenko in 02?   KO now?   You must not be able to tell our best player, perhaps?

[FatKidsDad]

 you can't blame people for getting more excited about watching stars with whom they can identify more  but there will always be an element of getting more excited about players on the team -- especially stars -- with whom the typical fan can more easily identify, especially if there aren't a lot of players like that around the league.  Most people, I think, will always have an easier time identifying with people who look more like themselves.  That's just human nature.

Even though I am a life-long Celtics fan, I'm switching to the first team that puts a short fat bald guy in the starting 5

[CroCorvus]

C's fan from Croatia here. Don't care what race, religion, sexual orientation and whatever other classification we have on this earth... it all boils down to being a high moral good citizen hell of a player who cares about our tradition.     

[Big333223]

Pho, I'm usually all-for diving deep into sociopolitical and psychological factors, but I think you're thinking too much here. Larry Bird and Tom Brady brought 3 and 4 championships to Boston, respectively. Pierce and Garnett brought 1. There were also entire generations that grew up loving Antoine Walker and Rajon Rondo. (I still root for Rondo harder than any non-Celtics player in the NBA, and I am not African American, a Kentucky alum, or from his hometown.) There's the saying that heroes live forever but legends never die. Pierce and KG and the like were heroes. Rondo was the Robin to the Big 3's Batman, and 'Toine was both Batman and Robin (before/after Pierce). They brought fun to the ultimately fruitless years. Larry and Brady are legends. They consistently brought both greatness and results, and no Celtics player in recent history can really say that.

For the Red Sox, David Ortiz is LOVED, much more than someone like Nomar Garciaparra, a former star that never delivered a title. Pedro is perhaps the most loved Sox pitcher ever. Manny Ramirez was passionately loved for a short time (before his antics started outweighing the production), as was Randy Moss. 

I genuinely don't think that race place a role in most Celtics fans' support of the players/team. It's hard to compare the legacies of Boston's recent "stars" because the Celtics have not had a string of title runs like the Pats or Sox. I can guarantee that if Marcus Smart is a 20/10 guy for the three-peating Boston Celtics in 2025 he will be revered for his athletic prowess just as much as Brady or Bird are. 

I think the only time race would play a large factor in player popularity is when a player from a not-very-well-represented-in-the-NBA country or of a similar race reaches stardom. Examples include the Asian-American Jeremy Lin and Latvian Kristap Porzingis.

I pretty much agree with all of this. The thing I was trying to get at in the OP was that for other teams, having the face of their franchise be a white guy (Dirk in Dallas, Love in Minnesota, etc.) is fien because those franchises don't have a history of being accused of racism. Like I wrote above, I think the accusations of racism leveled against the Celtics in the past (mostly in the 70's and 80's) are unfounded but they still happened. And because they happened, it's sort of a bad look if our franchise guy was White in a sport where its pretty rare for White guys to be the best on their team.

I'm sure everyone here feels the same way: Winning and attitude matter first and race is inconsequential in the pursuit of championships. But that doesn't stop me from worrying, to a degree, about the perception of my favorite team by people who don't know the real history of the team. Everything else considered equal, I'd rather root for a diverse team than one that might play in to the idea that the Celtics are, or have ever been, a racist organization.

But these are also, in the larger scheme, kind of inconsequential musings that wouldn't (and shouldn't) actually affect personel decisions.

[PhoSita]

In a strict hypothetical, do you really think if Paul was white people would root for him harder than they did as he was?

Note, this isn't to say I disagree with what you are saying, but I am curious.

I think the average casual white fan would, yeah.  I also don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[KG Living Legend]

 Tp's to everyone in this thread for having a mature, reasonable conversation on something that needs to be talked about occasionally.

 NG and Pho, I'm with you for the most part, and Lucky I believe it was, The Fact that Tom and Larry are white does play a factor in Blue Collar New England.

 Not that we don't love Ortiz, KG, Pierce, Etc.
 Lots of Black athletes resented Bird for all the praise he got.
 Lots of Black athletes dislike Brady for various reasons, being white one of them, its understandable. And we are a long way from it being perfect, but it is getting better.