What would it take to get Nerlens Noel?

[Moranis]

You can compare Smarts defence to ABs or TAs or even Kawahis, but you can't compare it to Noel. They simply do not play the same position and not against the same opposition. Their defences are bound to be different because of need of the position and type of opposition.
The only thing you can argue is that Noel is a C, something Boston is looking for.
But just ask your self this question. when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?

when was the last time a defensive PG with terrible O was able to lift a team to a championship?  You mean that has never happened.  Hmm.  However, there are plenty of defensive oriented centers that have been starters on championship teams (and Wallace was in fact his teams best player). 

  You don't see how comparing the number of defensive point guards who lifted their teams to titles to the number of defensive centers who were simply starters on title teams might skew the numbers one way or the other, do you?

I gave you one, Ben Wallace.  You could argue Tyson Chandler as well (obviously Dirk was the main guy there, but they don't win the title without Chandler).  Those are in the last 15 years.  I'm still waiting for that PG.

  Apparently you were confused by my question. Even with that, I'd say that the fact that you could only name one defensive center in the last 45 years that was even arguably the best player on a title team does a lot more to hurt your argument than to help it.

I wasn't confused at all and you still haven't answered my bolded question.  Also, lifting a team to a title, doesn't imply best player.  The original question, I answered, BTW, was when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?  The Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler, who is a defensive center without much offense.  Does that mean Chandler lifted a team to a championship?  Ben Wallace is clear.  I believe Chandler fits that bill.  I've still yet to hear a PG that fits that bill.  You see the original premise was a flawed shot at Noel, without realizing it affects Smart a great deal more.

I don't like this question because it takes Smart being a terrible offensive player going forward as a given. It's a lot more likely Smart ends up being a good offensive player than that Noel does.

I'm not sure you can really say that.  Smart has regressed as a shooter, while Noel has improved (in at least a few areas).  Could Smart end up being a shooter like Kidd, sure, but Noel could also end up with a more polished offensive game closer to a guy like Howard.  Frankly, I don't see either as very likely.

[Evantime34]

You can compare Smarts defence to ABs or TAs or even Kawahis, but you can't compare it to Noel. They simply do not play the same position and not against the same opposition. Their defences are bound to be different because of need of the position and type of opposition.
The only thing you can argue is that Noel is a C, something Boston is looking for.
But just ask your self this question. when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?

when was the last time a defensive PG with terrible O was able to lift a team to a championship?  You mean that has never happened.  Hmm.  However, there are plenty of defensive oriented centers that have been starters on championship teams (and Wallace was in fact his teams best player). 

  You don't see how comparing the number of defensive point guards who lifted their teams to titles to the number of defensive centers who were simply starters on title teams might skew the numbers one way or the other, do you?

I gave you one, Ben Wallace.  You could argue Tyson Chandler as well (obviously Dirk was the main guy there, but they don't win the title without Chandler).  Those are in the last 15 years.  I'm still waiting for that PG.

  Apparently you were confused by my question. Even with that, I'd say that the fact that you could only name one defensive center in the last 45 years that was even arguably the best player on a title team does a lot more to hurt your argument than to help it.

I wasn't confused at all and you still haven't answered my bolded question.  Also, lifting a team to a title, doesn't imply best player.  The original question, I answered, BTW, was when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?  The Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler, who is a defensive center without much offense.  Does that mean Chandler lifted a team to a championship?  Ben Wallace is clear.  I believe Chandler fits that bill.  I've still yet to hear a PG that fits that bill.  You see the original premise was a flawed shot at Noel, without realizing it affects Smart a great deal more.

I don't like this question because it takes Smart being a terrible offensive player going forward as a given. It's a lot more likely Smart ends up being a good offensive player than that Noel does.

I'm not sure you can really say that.  Smart has regressed as a shooter, while Noel has improved (in at least a few areas).  Could Smart end up being a shooter like Kidd, sure, but Noel could also end up with a more polished offensive game closer to a guy like Howard.  Frankly, I don't see either as very likely.

I'm not sure you can say Smart has regressed, given that you are comparing his numbers last year to 10 games this year. 10 games is not a big enough sample size to judge a player's shooting by. I'm confident that his shooting numbers will improve to at least the level they were at last year once he plays more minutes. Smart shot the 3 much better than Jason Kidd did in his rookie year so I don't think his shooting is as dire as Kidd's was early in his career.

I believe his shot selection has already shown signs of improvement. He has increased the percentage of his attempts that come from 0-3 feet and 3-10 feet while decreasing the number of middle distance J's he took last year (from 10-16 feet), he also decreased the percentage of his shots that come from 3.

In fact Smart is making the same exact percentage through his first 10 games as he did in his first 10 games last year. The biggest difference between the two starts to his seasons are that he is getting to the line 3 times as often as he did in his first 10 games last year. This is a positive step for a player that was an elite scorer in college due to his ability to get to the line.

[BballTim]

You can compare Smarts defence to ABs or TAs or even Kawahis, but you can't compare it to Noel. They simply do not play the same position and not against the same opposition. Their defences are bound to be different because of need of the position and type of opposition.
The only thing you can argue is that Noel is a C, something Boston is looking for.
But just ask your self this question. when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?

when was the last time a defensive PG with terrible O was able to lift a team to a championship?  You mean that has never happened.  Hmm.  However, there are plenty of defensive oriented centers that have been starters on championship teams (and Wallace was in fact his teams best player). 

  You don't see how comparing the number of defensive point guards who lifted their teams to titles to the number of defensive centers who were simply starters on title teams might skew the numbers one way or the other, do you?

I gave you one, Ben Wallace.  You could argue Tyson Chandler as well (obviously Dirk was the main guy there, but they don't win the title without Chandler).  Those are in the last 15 years.  I'm still waiting for that PG.

  Apparently you were confused by my question. Even with that, I'd say that the fact that you could only name one defensive center in the last 45 years that was even arguably the best player on a title team does a lot more to hurt your argument than to help it.

I wasn't confused at all and you still haven't answered my bolded question.  Also, lifting a team to a title, doesn't imply best player.  The original question, I answered, BTW, was when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?  The Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler, who is a defensive center without much offense.  Does that mean Chandler lifted a team to a championship?  Ben Wallace is clear.  I believe Chandler fits that bill.  I've still yet to hear a PG that fits that bill.  You see the original premise was a flawed shot at Noel, without realizing it affects Smart a great deal more.

  Lifting a team to a title doesn't imply anything at all. "don't win a title without" generally applies to anyone who plays a significant role on any team. All you're doing is coming up with nebulous definitions and randomly deciding who fits that definition based on whether that player bolsters your point or not. Did Eddie House lift the Celts to a title in 2008? Because you could claim we wouldn't have won a title without him. Same with Posey, Perkins, Rondo, Perk, PP, Ray and KG. Many hands make light work I suppose.

[slamtheking]

I believe Noel will exit Philly at end of his rookie contract

as do I

[Moranis]

You can compare Smarts defence to ABs or TAs or even Kawahis, but you can't compare it to Noel. They simply do not play the same position and not against the same opposition. Their defences are bound to be different because of need of the position and type of opposition.
The only thing you can argue is that Noel is a C, something Boston is looking for.
But just ask your self this question. when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?

when was the last time a defensive PG with terrible O was able to lift a team to a championship?  You mean that has never happened.  Hmm.  However, there are plenty of defensive oriented centers that have been starters on championship teams (and Wallace was in fact his teams best player). 

  You don't see how comparing the number of defensive point guards who lifted their teams to titles to the number of defensive centers who were simply starters on title teams might skew the numbers one way or the other, do you?

I gave you one, Ben Wallace.  You could argue Tyson Chandler as well (obviously Dirk was the main guy there, but they don't win the title without Chandler).  Those are in the last 15 years.  I'm still waiting for that PG.

  Apparently you were confused by my question. Even with that, I'd say that the fact that you could only name one defensive center in the last 45 years that was even arguably the best player on a title team does a lot more to hurt your argument than to help it.

I wasn't confused at all and you still haven't answered my bolded question.  Also, lifting a team to a title, doesn't imply best player.  The original question, I answered, BTW, was when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?  The Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler, who is a defensive center without much offense.  Does that mean Chandler lifted a team to a championship?  Ben Wallace is clear.  I believe Chandler fits that bill.  I've still yet to hear a PG that fits that bill.  You see the original premise was a flawed shot at Noel, without realizing it affects Smart a great deal more.

  Lifting a team to a title doesn't imply anything at all. "don't win a title without" generally applies to anyone who plays a significant role on any team. All you're doing is coming up with nebulous definitions and randomly deciding who fits that definition based on whether that player bolsters your point or not. Did Eddie House lift the Celts to a title in 2008? Because you could claim we wouldn't have won a title without him. Same with Posey, Perkins, Rondo, Perk, PP, Ray and KG. Many hands make light work I suppose.

Eddie House is an easily replaceable role player.  PP, Ray, and KG were the integral parts of the title team.  None could easily be replaced, thus I would say all 3 would fit that category of player.  Chandler is that same category of player.  Ben Wallace was Detroit's best player so he clearly fits that definition as well.

BTW, still waiting for that PG that fits that description.

[slamtheking]

You can compare Smarts defence to ABs or TAs or even Kawahis, but you can't compare it to Noel. They simply do not play the same position and not against the same opposition. Their defences are bound to be different because of need of the position and type of opposition.
The only thing you can argue is that Noel is a C, something Boston is looking for.
But just ask your self this question. when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?

when was the last time a defensive PG with terrible O was able to lift a team to a championship?  You mean that has never happened.  Hmm.  However, there are plenty of defensive oriented centers that have been starters on championship teams (and Wallace was in fact his teams best player). 

  You don't see how comparing the number of defensive point guards who lifted their teams to titles to the number of defensive centers who were simply starters on title teams might skew the numbers one way or the other, do you?

I gave you one, Ben Wallace.  You could argue Tyson Chandler as well (obviously Dirk was the main guy there, but they don't win the title without Chandler).  Those are in the last 15 years.  I'm still waiting for that PG.

  Apparently you were confused by my question. Even with that, I'd say that the fact that you could only name one defensive center in the last 45 years that was even arguably the best player on a title team does a lot more to hurt your argument than to help it.

I wasn't confused at all and you still haven't answered my bolded question.  Also, lifting a team to a title, doesn't imply best player.  The original question, I answered, BTW, was when was the last time a defensive center with terrible O able to lift a team to a championship?  The Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler, who is a defensive center without much offense.  Does that mean Chandler lifted a team to a championship?  Ben Wallace is clear.  I believe Chandler fits that bill.  I've still yet to hear a PG that fits that bill.  You see the original premise was a flawed shot at Noel, without realizing it affects Smart a great deal more.

  Lifting a team to a title doesn't imply anything at all. "don't win a title without" generally applies to anyone who plays a significant role on any team. All you're doing is coming up with nebulous definitions and randomly deciding who fits that definition based on whether that player bolsters your point or not. Did Eddie House lift the Celts to a title in 2008? Because you could claim we wouldn't have won a title without him. Same with Posey, Perkins, Rondo, Perk, PP, Ray and KG. Many hands make light work I suppose.

Eddie House is an easily replaceable role player.  PP, Ray, and KG were the integral parts of the title team.  None could easily be replaced, thus I would say all 3 would fit that category of player.  Chandler is that same category of player.  Ben Wallace was Detroit's best player so he clearly fits that definition as well.

BTW, still waiting for that PG that fits that description.

I wouldn't consider Ben the best player on that team.  I'd put him behind Sheed and Billups but he was definitely key on that team with no stars.

As for a guard that was primarily defensive, I'd offer DJ from the '84 and '86 titles.  DJ's shooting wasn't very good and he didn't have any range.  Could argue Ron Harper from those 3 Bulls titles --> he wasn't the scorer he was in Cleveland.  Mostly played D rather than O.  Heck, for that matter you could throw in Rondo from 2008 because he couldn't shoot either and was a pretty key player.  add in every title run the C's made after that too --> Rondo was key.

[cb8883]

Noel has more trade value than anyone on this roster. Now, I would really like this guy on the Celtics but there is zero reason for the Sixers to trade him. It would probably take the Nets pick this year and next year Bradley and Sullinger.  I know people are going to react and say "oh my god, that's way too much" but a proven young big is more of a valuable commodity.

[Eddie20]

Noel has more trade value than anyone on this roster. Now, I would really like this guy on the Celtics but there is zero reason for the Sixers to trade him. It would probably take the Nets pick this year and next year Bradley and Sullinger.  I know people are going to react and say "oh my god, that's way too much" but a proven young big is more of a valuable commodity.

He's young and tall, but I wouldn't exactly call him big or proven.

[Evantime34]

Noel has more trade value than anyone on this roster. Now, I would really like this guy on the Celtics but there is zero reason for the Sixers to trade him. It would probably take the Nets pick this year and next year Bradley and Sullinger.  I know people are going to react and say "oh my god, that's way too much" but a proven young big is more of a valuable commodity.

So much I disagree with. First, I don't agree that Noel has more trade value than anyone on the Celtics. The Sixers have performed better this year with him on the bench, which I don't think will help his trade value.

Secondly, there is plenty of reason for the Sixers to trade him. He plays the same position as their best prospect, they have shown to be an awful fit when playing together. 3 of the top 5 players in the draft are big men. If they get one of those 3 plus add Embiid and Saric it will be clear that they have to make a trade to smooth out the roster. The reason is simple, they currently have too many bigs and will be adding even more next year.

[flybono]

Smart and a Brooklyn #1 (15) for Noel and Micic

[max215]

Noel has more trade value than anyone on this roster. Now, I would really like this guy on the Celtics but there is zero reason for the Sixers to trade him. It would probably take the Nets pick this year and next year Bradley and Sullinger.  I know people are going to react and say "oh my god, that's way too much" but a proven young big is more of a valuable commodity.

So much I disagree with. First, I don't agree that Noel has more trade value than anyone on the Celtics. The Sixers have performed better this year with him on the bench, which I don't think will help his trade value.

Secondly, there is plenty of reason for the Sixers to trade him. He plays the same position as their best prospect, they have shown to be an awful fit when playing together. 3 of the top 5 players in the draft are big men. If they get one of those 3 plus add Embiid and Saric it will be clear that they have to make a trade to smooth out the roster. The reason is simple, they currently have too many bigs and will be adding even more next year.

Don't forget that Noel is far from proven and has actually regressed since last year.

[Ilikesports17]

Smart and a Brooklyn #1 (15) for Noel and Micic

?

[LarBrd33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

[jpotter33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

[obnoxiousmime]

I always thought they were playing Okafor to showcase him. He puts up numbers, but he's limited as a defender and his game is very old school (that's a negative). From the comments on this board it seems like the general perception is that Noel is the expendable one, if the Sixers were inclined to deal one of the two. Playing Okafor as a rookie was also a good tanking tactic.

I think that while Noel is somewhat overrated as a defender right now, he actually has the physical capability of becoming a good one with experience and good coaching. I don't think Okafor will ever be a good defender and there's a limit to how good your team can be with him starting and taking a large percentage of shots.

What do you guys think? I'm just surprised that people are assuming Noel is the one Sixers brass would rather deal if there is a trade.