Author Topic: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)  (Read 46956 times)

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Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2015, 06:57:10 AM »

Offline Casperian

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I actually liked the character of Finn. A Stormtrooper with a crisis of conscience? He starts out as a bit of a coward, concerned only with self-preservation, but grows into a bit of a flawed hero, taking greater and greater risks (usually to save Rey).

You'd have a point if they explored that angle and we actually saw him grow, but it was merely glossed over.

Stormtrooper gets blood on his helmet, decides to desert, because "it was the right thing to do". Instead of simply fleeing at the next convenient opportunity, he decides to help the rebellion and free the captive pilot so they can flee the battleship full of stormtroopers on a captured fighter. He then meets a girl and is instantly head over heels in love with her. So flat, so shoehorned in.

At no point did they ever explore his motivations or evolved him past anything than "bumbling sidekick", and the fact it's part 1 of a trilogy isn't really an excuse for that, either.

That being said, it had its moments;

-The chase on Coruscant

-The stuff on Kamino

- The Geonosis battles (both in the arena & the Dooku showdown)

I'll give you the chase on Coruscant. That was actually a fine action sequence. I mean, it's been over 10 years since the last time I watched AOTC, but I remember liking that part, even though it was basically nothing more than a hover car chase. The rest was somewhere between boring and cringe-worthy, especially the arena battle, imo.
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Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #151 on: December 28, 2015, 12:00:55 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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In regards to AOTC, it had its moments but I don't remember walking out of that movie being blown away.  Watching it years removed from theaters and its even more apparent how overblown the CGI is and how flat the acting it.

That being said, it had its moments;

-The chase on Coruscant

-The stuff on Kamino

- The Geonosis battles (both in the arena & the Dooku showdown)

The love story was godawful.  Absolutely terrible writing.

seeing yoda fight for the first time is by far the highlight of the film

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #152 on: December 28, 2015, 12:48:54 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I get that there's some fans of the prequels here, which I suspect speaks more to the ages of the people posting on this forum, but whether you are a prequel apologist or not, try to understand the reality that the prequels damaged the prestige of the Star Wars franchise.  They were Mediocre movies at best and there was significant backlash that they weren't as good as the originals and that aspects of the originals were missing.  They felt different.   George Lucas was so shamed by the the amount of the backlash that he realized he had to sell the rights to Star Wars.  The general population was not hyped by Lucas doing more Star Wars.  There was already too much bad vibes there from his mediocre prequels and his "ruining" the originals with his completely unnecessary "special editions".

Episode 7 was a direct response to that.  It's a re-launch of Star Wars. Yes, it borrows heavily from the original movie, but it wasn't accidental.  They wanted to prove they could capture the joys of the original.  They wanted to pass it on to a new generation of young actors.  So yeah, you get a bit of a paint by numbers rehash of the original.  It's intended to regain confidence in a franchise with wounds in it.  They have succeeded.  People are hooked again.  We are going to get a Star Wars movie every year from here on out.  They obviously felt like they couldn't take any chances with this one.

Here's the good news:   Rian Johnson is very creative.  If you've seen "brick" and "looper", you'd see that he's very good at defying expectations within specific genres.  Disney apparently has a lot of confidence in him, because he's writing episode 8 and 9.  He will be directing episode 8 (Colin treveror will direct episode 9).  I would be flabbergasted if episode 8 simply follows a blueprint of "empire strikes back".  They wouldn't have hired Rian Johnson if that was the intention.   The original idea from Disney seemed to be to let exciting young directors with creative vision take the helm of these projects.  You can feel free to be cynical and skeptical about it, but Disney had given some leeway to writer/directors of their marvel projects.   JJ was hired with the task of reintroducing us to this world in a familiar way.   I have a lot of confidence that Rian Johnson will put his stamp on this heading forward.  Hiring him was a bold choice.   You don't make bold choices if you just want a rehash.

I've heard that the script for episode 8 is pretty great.  Read an article that JJ Abrams himself was so impressed with it that he wished he had written it. 

Lots of criticism in this thread about how the new movie is just a rehash.  It wasn't a mistake.  Say what you will, but Star Wars is officially back.  The general audience is hooked again.  It's already made a billion dollars and the general consensus is very positive (which makes this thread kind of confusing to me since its slanting so negative).   It's going to be fun to see where it goes from here.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #153 on: December 28, 2015, 01:32:28 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Lots of criticism in this thread about how the new movie is just a rehash.  It wasn't a mistake.  Say what you will, but Star Wars is officially back.  The general audience is hooked again.  It's already made a billion dollars and the general consensus is very positive (which makes this thread kind of confusing to me since its slanting so negative).   It's going to be fun to see where it goes from here.
The criticism of it being a rehash is justified though.  that's not to say it wasn't a great or entertaining movie, which it certainly was even for most of those not happy with a rehash (such as myself). 

Saying it's not a mistake would be inaccurate.  Saying it was intentional seems to be more accurate.

they definitely rebooted the franchise.  as stated previously, my principle concern is whether the next 2 movies in the trilogy will be more rehashes of V and VI.  The rehashes may be wonderful and entertaining but if they are rehashes, that would be a disappointment.  hopefully you're right about VIII and IX going in a new direction. 

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #154 on: December 28, 2015, 02:17:32 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Lots of criticism in this thread about how the new movie is just a rehash.  It wasn't a mistake.  Say what you will, but Star Wars is officially back.  The general audience is hooked again.  It's already made a billion dollars and the general consensus is very positive (which makes this thread kind of confusing to me since its slanting so negative).   It's going to be fun to see where it goes from here.
The criticism of it being a rehash is justified though.  that's not to say it wasn't a great or entertaining movie, which it certainly was even for most of those not happy with a rehash (such as myself). 

Saying it's not a mistake would be inaccurate.  Saying it was intentional seems to be more accurate.

they definitely rebooted the franchise.  as stated previously, my principle concern is whether the next 2 movies in the trilogy will be more rehashes of V and VI.  The rehashes may be wonderful and entertaining but if they are rehashes, that would be a disappointment.  hopefully you're right about VIII and IX going in a new direction.

I mean, it's been over 30 years since a beloved Star Wars movie came out.  When news of Disney buying the property came it, it was met with a lot of skepticism.   There's also an entire young generation of kids who will never love the original trilogy as much as their parents.  They may have played this one safe, but they nailed it.  I don't think this was the movie to take risks.  Prove you can still bring back the magic, hook the fans again, and then move in a new direction.

They aren't going to just remake empire strikes back.  I've read a little about it.  It will be different.  It should be even better than episode 7.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2015, 01:27:24 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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-very good, but not great

-looking forward to see where it goes

-liked rey and looking forward to her story

-loved the character maz kanata

-having the old cast really helped bring the saga to the new storyline
liked kylo ren in the beginning, then was let down. star wars villains always had that appeal that you liked them, even if you hated them. i don't have that feeling with ren (or snoke) right now

-hated that ren was "ben solo" and not jacen solo.  also using ben from ben skywalker

-was hoping we would see thrawn

-HAN SOLO'S DEATH......Hated how he died.  as a kid, you always envisioned he would die in a blaze of glory, not all emotional
Saw this yesterday, and mostly agreed w/dark lord's critique.  I liked how the originals were sprinkled in the story.  Not better than the original, but not bad.  Liked the "Mah" character.  Even 'though science fiction is not my favorite genre, I really enjoyed this one...maybe because, since I didn't expect much, it exceeded my expectations.
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Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #156 on: December 31, 2015, 04:51:25 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #157 on: January 09, 2016, 05:51:56 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Abrams responded to critics:

Quote
“It was obviously a wildly intentional thing that we go backwards, in some ways, to go forwards in the important ways, given that this is a genre — that Star Wars is a kind of specific gorgeous concoction of George [Lucas]’ — that combines all sorts of things. Ultimately the structure of Star Wars itself is as classic and tried and true as you can get. It was itself derivative of all of these things that George loved so much, from the most obvious, Flash Gordon and Joseph Campbell, to the [Akira] Kurosawa references, to Westerns — I mean, all of these elements were part of what made Star Wars. I can understand that someone might say, ‘Oh, it’s a complete rip-off! What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards. We inherited Star Wars. The story of history repeating itself was, I believe, an obvious and intentional thing, and the structure of meeting a character who comes from a nowhere desert and discovers that she has a power within her, where the bad guys have a weapon that is destructive but that ends up being destroyed — those simple tenets are by far the least important aspects of this movie, and they provide bones that were well-proven long before they were used in Star Wars.”

“What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards,” he continues. “So I understand that this movie, I would argue much more than the ones that follow, needed to take a couple of steps backwards into very familiar terrain, and using a structure of nobodies becoming somebodies defeating the baddies — which is, again, I would argue, not a brand new concept, admittedly — but use that to do, I think, a far more important thing, which is introduce this young woman, who’s a character we’ve not seen before and who has a story we have not seen before, meeting the first Storm Trooper we’ve ever seen who we get to know as a human being; to see the two of them have an adventure in a way that no one has had yet, with Han Solo; to see those characters go to find someone who is a brand new character who, yes, may be diminutive, but is as far from Yoda as I think a description of a character can get, who gets to enlighten almost the way a wonderful older teacher or grandparent or great-aunt might, you know, something that is confirming a kind of belief system that is rejected by the main character; and to tell a story of being a parent and being a child and the struggles that that entails — clearly Star Wars has always been a familial story, but never in the way that we’ve told here.”

It was obviously intentional to re-introduce the world in a familiar way.  Regardless of how you feel about it... long-term, it'll be fine.  Literally every piece of information I've heard about Episode 8/9 is that Rian Johnson is going to take it in a different direction.  Don't expect it to be just another Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.   

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #158 on: January 09, 2016, 09:03:04 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Most of my friends, liked Kylo Ren, until he took off the mask.   Then he was an emo, which disgusted them.   I am still waiting for the crowds to thin.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #159 on: January 09, 2016, 09:16:30 AM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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I saw this movie again recently and in terms of acting...Rey was definitely the weakest  - although I imagine that's been said before. She's, maybe intentionally, stiff-ish early but later she seems to ease into the role. I wish there had been more Poe.

Some unexplained/un-fleshed out stuff still bothered me, but I think there'll be good explanations later.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2016, 10:08:27 AM »

Offline Sketch5

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-very good, but not great

-looking forward to see where it goes

-liked rey and looking forward to her story

-loved the character maz kanata

-having the old cast really helped bring the saga to the new storyline
liked kylo ren in the beginning, then was let down. star wars villains always had that appeal that you liked them, even if you hated them. i don't have that feeling with ren (or snoke) right now

-hated that ren was "ben solo" and not jacen solo.  also using ben from ben skywalker

-was hoping we would see thrawn

-HAN SOLO'S DEATH......Hated how he died.  as a kid, you always envisioned he would die in a blaze of glory, not all emotional

Heres the thing about Hans death. It wasn't about him, it was about Ren(Ben). Ren did the one thing Vader couldn't do and that was kill his own flesh and blood. Vader suggested to the Emperor to bring Luke in the fold and that caused the Emperor's undoing.

Han tried to bring his son back, which shows growth of his character of a once was shoot first(yes George Han shot first) to a father trying to reason with his son. His Son to torn to do what he had to do asked pretty much asked him his permission to do so. Which shows the twistedness of Ren and the grasp of the Darkside has on him and how much further he's willing to go. Which Makes Ren a much more opposing foe than Vader was.

Han's death long term becomes much more meaningful for the story. When Ford went to Lucas about killing off Han it was suppose to be when he got froze in cardonite. So this death was much better than that. I mean to be killed by your own son when you're trying to help him, think about that.
   

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2016, 11:16:33 AM »

Offline MBunge

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Abrams responded to critics:

Quote
“It was obviously a wildly intentional thing that we go backwards, in some ways, to go forwards in the important ways, given that this is a genre — that Star Wars is a kind of specific gorgeous concoction of George [Lucas]’ — that combines all sorts of things. Ultimately the structure of Star Wars itself is as classic and tried and true as you can get. It was itself derivative of all of these things that George loved so much, from the most obvious, Flash Gordon and Joseph Campbell, to the [Akira] Kurosawa references, to Westerns — I mean, all of these elements were part of what made Star Wars. I can understand that someone might say, ‘Oh, it’s a complete rip-off! What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards. We inherited Star Wars. The story of history repeating itself was, I believe, an obvious and intentional thing, and the structure of meeting a character who comes from a nowhere desert and discovers that she has a power within her, where the bad guys have a weapon that is destructive but that ends up being destroyed — those simple tenets are by far the least important aspects of this movie, and they provide bones that were well-proven long before they were used in Star Wars.”

“What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards,” he continues. “So I understand that this movie, I would argue much more than the ones that follow, needed to take a couple of steps backwards into very familiar terrain, and using a structure of nobodies becoming somebodies defeating the baddies — which is, again, I would argue, not a brand new concept, admittedly — but use that to do, I think, a far more important thing, which is introduce this young woman, who’s a character we’ve not seen before and who has a story we have not seen before, meeting the first Storm Trooper we’ve ever seen who we get to know as a human being; to see the two of them have an adventure in a way that no one has had yet, with Han Solo; to see those characters go to find someone who is a brand new character who, yes, may be diminutive, but is as far from Yoda as I think a description of a character can get, who gets to enlighten almost the way a wonderful older teacher or grandparent or great-aunt might, you know, something that is confirming a kind of belief system that is rejected by the main character; and to tell a story of being a parent and being a child and the struggles that that entails — clearly Star Wars has always been a familial story, but never in the way that we’ve told here.”

It was obviously intentional to re-introduce the world in a familiar way.  Regardless of how you feel about it... long-term, it'll be fine.  Literally every piece of information I've heard about Episode 8/9 is that Rian Johnson is going to take it in a different direction.  Don't expect it to be just another Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

This is the only response Abrams needs to make: $$$$$$$$$!

The decision to rehash Star Wars' greatest hits has been validated by overwhelming popular acclaim.  Hopefully there won't be extreme pressure from Disney to continue down that road.

Mike

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #162 on: January 09, 2016, 11:46:11 AM »

Offline incoherent

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Take away all the comparisons and expectations.

Remove the idea that it's even a Star Wars film.

Forget about the politics and the majority opinions.


TFA is an above average sci-fantasy film. 
TFA is an above average movie compared to rest of what Hollywood produces on a regular basis.


I honestly don't believe people when they say they hate this movie. I think they are saying it because they like the sound of their own voice.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2016, 11:51:23 AM »

Offline incoherent

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I actually liked the character of Finn. A Stormtrooper with a crisis of conscience? He starts out as a bit of a coward, concerned only with self-preservation, but grows into a bit of a flawed hero, taking greater and greater risks (usually to save Rey).

You'd have a point if they explored that angle and we actually saw him grow, but it was merely glossed over.

Stormtrooper gets blood on his helmet, decides to desert, because "it was the right thing to do". Instead of simply fleeing at the next convenient opportunity, he decides to help the rebellion and free the captive pilot so they can flee the battleship full of stormtroopers on a captured fighter. He then meets a girl and is instantly head over heels in love with her. So flat, so shoehorned in.

At no point did they ever explore his motivations or evolved him past anything than "bumbling sidekick", and the fact it's part 1 of a trilogy isn't really an excuse for that, either.

That being said, it had its moments;

-The chase on Coruscant

-The stuff on Kamino

- The Geonosis battles (both in the arena & the Dooku showdown)

I'll give you the chase on Coruscant. That was actually a fine action sequence. I mean, it's been over 10 years since the last time I watched AOTC, but I remember liking that part, even though it was basically nothing more than a hover car chase. The rest was somewhere between boring and cringe-worthy, especially the arena battle, imo.

I have the disagree with above bolded statement.

Poe clearly figures out and calls Finn out on just using him to escape the ship and Finn doesn't actually care, at that point, about helping the rebellion.   In fact Finn still doesn't care about helping the rebellion for quite some time after his and Poe's escape.  The movie made sure they had dialogue that clearly pointed out Finn only doing this to help himself.

Also, I dont believe Finn immediately falls head over heels in love with Rey.  I didnt pick up on that at all and the movie definitely doesn't portray Finn falling in love Rey in my opinion.  Can I see it happening in the next couple movies, yeah... but to pretend like he immediately falls in love with Rey is just wrong. Hell he is ready to abandon Rey the first chance he gets at Maz's pub.


Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #164 on: January 17, 2016, 01:19:27 PM »

Offline Hemingway

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living in China I just saw the movie. I thought it was pretty good. my gf had never seen any of the other movies and she really liked it. i kept thinking I would have to explain things to her during the movie but they made it well enough that someone who knew nothing of starwars would still like it a lot. well done.