Author Topic: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)  (Read 18231 times)

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Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2015, 10:09:38 PM »

Offline colincb

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Force Awakens < Phantom Menace.
Force Awakens < Godfather 3

Total plagiarism of New Hope

Hated, hated, hated, Phantom Menace. Never watched another SW prequel all the way through thereafter.  I wanted to kill Jar Jar Binks. Couldn't stand the kid. Hated the idea of a prequel. Oh look, I'm going to want that kid to die when he grows up! Stupid film and anybody that liked it I hate. Nothing personal. Certainly better than any of the slash and gore movies though like Hostel, Saw and its ilk where all the attendees in the theater are future mass murderers, but that's about it.

I thought they did a nice job on this 3D version. I'd watch a sequel, but not a prequel.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2015, 10:15:19 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Force Awakens < Phantom Menace.
Force Awakens < Godfather 3

Total plagiarism of New Hope

Hated, hated, hated, Phantom Menace. Never watched another SW prequel all the way through thereafter.  I wanted to kill Jar Jar Binks. Couldn't stand the kid. Hated the idea of a prequel. Oh look, I'm going to want that kid to die when he grows up! Stupid film and anybody that liked it I hate. Nothing personal. Certainly better than any of the slash and gore movies though like Hostel, Saw and its ilk where all the attendees in the theater are future mass murderers, but that's about it.

I thought they did a nice job on this 3D version. I'd watch a sequel, but not a prequel.

I'll never understand why people hate other people for liking movies or entertainment they don't like.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2015, 10:18:08 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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#2 - No sense of humor - The prequels seemed like they were written by someone with autism or something.  No sense of humor at all.  In the original, they were able to improvise slightly.  Han had swagger.  It was light hearted and fun.

I don't have a problem with ideas of yours that others perceive to be obnoxious at times and it's perfectly fine if you don't like a movie, but to be so inconceivably insulting and offensive towards people with autism is not only unacceptable, but is also, as a move, lower than Sam Hinkie's win total, I'm sorry.
Maybe you find it offensive if you don't know much about the autism spectrum (or are familiar with other famous celebrities, artists, directors who are autistic).  I have spent a lot of time with folks with high functioning autism.  Some of them are very smart, but have difficulty comprehending certain emotions... and humor is often a difficult thing for them to grasp.  An autistic girl I worked with simply didn't understand jokes unless they were puns. She loved puns.  I also know someone who knows George Lucas personally and he insists he shows all the signs of high functioning autism.  There's been a lot of speculation in the autism community for a while that Lucas has Asperger’s Syndrome based on elements of his personality and how his writing lacks emotion (fwiw, Helena Bonham Carter claimed that Tim Burton also had all the signs of asperger's).  Sorry if the comment comes across flippant or if my use of the word "autism" was a trigger (I think some people confuse autism with down's syndrome), but I was more commenting on  the way those prequels were written, what the focus of the movies was on, how stunted/flat the dialogue was... and generally how the characters interacted with each other.  They seemed to lack a basic understanding of how real people interact with each other.  The reviewer in the video I linked says it felt like it was written by an 8 year old.  Maybe instead I should have said the prequels seem like they were written by someone with social problems... and I've heard from someone who knows him directly that George Lucas has social problems... and have seen many interviews in which people described him as an anti-social introvert with an obsessive personality.  He apparently had never been easy to get along with on sets... and I suspect that if Harrison Ford had not been clashing with Lucas and making up his own lines in the original movie, it probably wouldn't have worked as well. 

Anyways...  a lot of the best parts of the original trilogy didn't actually come from Lucas.   Lots of improvisation, both Empire and Jedi (and Episode 7) were written by Lawrence Kasden.  There were elements that were added in spite of him.  Lucas also wasn't the director on either "Empire Strikes Back" or "Return of the Jedi".   There was a lot more collaboration in the original trilogy.   With the prequels, Lucas took over the entire thing (all writing and directing responsibilities) and ultimately failed.  I think Lucas strength is world-building and ideas... I'm not sure he was ever a great director.  He should consult, create plot elements, give input on the world... and then step back and let people with a sense of humor and understanding of storytelling principles write the screenplay and direct the film.

Lucas written a lot of Empire along Kasdan. Jedi was considered to be the weakest of the OT so is that Kasdan's fault as well?

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2015, 10:20:30 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Oh yeah....Adam Driver has a major academy award nomination coming his way.   If we have to talk about guys who acted through a mask I'll take Dave Prowse or Boba Fett.

I will take Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Hayden Christiansen, Ian McDiarmid, Samuel Jackson, and Christopher Lee over anyone in this film, and that might even include a tired and disinterested Harrison Ford.

Furthermore let's make this clear about these "reviews".  Disney is a major player in Hollywood, but Lucas was despised. They tried to make him change his movies so he told them to go f themselves and left the director's guild. He's better than them and above them and they know it. "Reviews" was the only revenge they could get.

So now they feed us this junk and give it good "reviews". Disney made a billion dollar investment. There was no way the reviews were gonna be bad.
Nah.  That's utter nonsense.   Major Disney films get panned all the time.

ANyways, watch the Red Letter Media review series.  Highly entertaining and will explain to you why the prequels were despised and why this movie had to go back to basics.   If you do end up watching them, I'll be interested to see your response. 

Part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5919C8DE6F720A2D&v=FxKtZmQgxrI
Disney films get panned all the time? Ones that they spent billions to buy?
Dude that's a reach.  Am i really going to have to waste my time explaining why critics aren't paid off by studios?  Again, the core issue here is that you don't understand why people dislike the prequels.  Watch the Red Letter Media reviews and get back to me. 

For what it's worth, Episode 7 has an 81/100 on Metacritic.  That's very high.  I don't think a single Marvel movie (owned by Disney) has scored as highly as Episode 7.   On metacritic, the avengers movies scored in the 60s.   Some of score in the Marvel character movies score in the 40s/50s.   The Hobbit movies are some of the most expensive films ever made and those all were widely panned by critics (scoring in the 50s)... in your twisted world does only Disney have the money to pay off movie critics?  The most expensive movie of all time, "Pirates of the Caribbean:  On Stranger Tides" is... Disney... and scored a 45 on Metacritic.  It reportedly had a budget of 375 million.   

This is nonsense.  It's also received unanimous praise from people who have been dumping on Star Wars for the past 15 years.   You think they were all paid off?







Maybe I was paid off too.  We were all paid off!! Muhahaha.   Silly...  these movies could have been completely panned and would have still made a zillion dollars...

If you're incapable of comprehending what people are loving about this movie, I don't really know what to tell you.  It's mostly just a shame you couldn't enjoy it.  The movie isn't without flaws (literally no Star Wars movie is... ultimately they are all just homages (or "rip offs" if you'd prefer) to classic films with a cliche story arc and a heavy dose of stupidity), but it's a ton of fun... and that's what Star Wars is supposed to be.

The prequels were "hated" too, and the blu-ray versions made a lot of money so does that mean they're good?
Nope.   It means that had this movie gotten poor reviews, it would have broken records anyways.  It's getting good reviews, because it's a fun movie that people enjoyed.

You know reviews aren't everything. Lots of people bought the blu rays, if the prequels were "despised" as you claim then the sales wouldn't be so high.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2015, 10:21:45 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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I thought it was good, not great.

The two things I didn't like:

1.  Kylo Ren. He's a whiny emo punk. First Peter Parker, then Anakin Skywalker, now Ben Solo.  Enough. There's nothing wrong with making a villain bad ass; he doesn't need daddy issues.

2.  You don't kill Han Solo, period. He's a larger than life hero, and those guys shouldn't die. I get it, Obi Wan died, but Han's death was gratuitous.


1.With Ren, when he had the mask on he was intimidating. He needed the mask yo put fear in you. He was using Vaders image to become bigger than he actually was. Having an actor like him shows venerability, a weakness, his humanity due to the connection to his parents. I thought the same thing as you at first but after thinking about it and discussing it, it made sense in the end.

2.I don't think Ford does the movie it unless he died. He was trying to get Lucas to do it since Empire. Plus that is what makes Ren scarier than Vader, he will kill his own father were Vader couldn't. So it was either Han or blow Leia up. And that doesn't go by the hand of Ren, so Han it was. It also shows how strong the hold Sook(?) Has on Ren, and this is what he need to do to be come a Darth....And that was a end goal for Ren.

It also in powered Rey. The force was bubbling near the top, that help push it over the edge, Seeing Han Die and then Finn get sliced. It helped make her stronger for her fight with Ren. Plus these movies are about the new generation. If you want  hero Han, watch the original trilogy. This is about Rey,Finn and Poa. Plus Han got a huge part in this, and I have a feeling his death will be more meaningful in the long run for the story than keeping him around.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2015, 10:22:57 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Oh yeah....Adam Driver has a major academy award nomination coming his way.   If we have to talk about guys who acted through a mask I'll take Dave Prowse or Boba Fett.

I will take Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Hayden Christiansen, Ian McDiarmid, Samuel Jackson, and Christopher Lee over anyone in this film, and that might even include a tired and disinterested Harrison Ford.

Furthermore let's make this clear about these "reviews".  Disney is a major player in Hollywood, but Lucas was despised. They tried to make him change his movies so he told them to go f themselves and left the director's guild. He's better than them and above them and they know it. "Reviews" was the only revenge they could get.

So now they feed us this junk and give it good "reviews". Disney made a billion dollar investment. There was no way the reviews were gonna be bad.
Nah.  That's utter nonsense.   Major Disney films get panned all the time.

ANyways, watch the Red Letter Media review series.  Highly entertaining and will explain to you why the prequels were despised and why this movie had to go back to basics.   If you do end up watching them, I'll be interested to see your response. 

Part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5919C8DE6F720A2D&v=FxKtZmQgxrI

Prequels weren't "despised" like you or the reviewer claims. They have a lot of fans, I don't like the "go watch this review" argument because it's lazy and the reviewer slanders and strawman George Lucas.
Sure... I'll concede that some people who were children when Phantom Menace came out really like "Jar Jar"...  Overall, those movies were seen as a giant disappointment...   They are widely seen as the biggest failure of George Lucas' career... and the massive amount of backlash they received played a significant part in Lucas selling the rights and moving on.  A large chunk of dedicated Star Wars fans hated him for what he did with the "special editions" and the prequels.  They blamed him for "ruining" Star Wars.   Is this not common knowledge?  This is a strange thread... I thought this was common knowledge.



Those movies were overall liked with Revenge of the Sith receiving an 80 percent on Rotton Tomatoes. It's not as "common knowledge" as you claim despite what the People vs George Lucas or the youtube reviewers say.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2015, 10:30:49 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'm learning a lot from this thread.  Mainly why I don't read Star Wars discussions online.  Holy cow. 



I thought it was good, not great.

The two things I didn't like:

1.  Kylo Ren. He's a whiny emo punk. First Peter Parker, then Anakin Skywalker, now Ben Solo.  Enough. There's nothing wrong with making a villain bad ass; he doesn't need daddy issues.

2.  You don't kill Han Solo, period. He's a larger than life hero, and those guys shouldn't die. I get it, Obi Wan died, but Han's death was gratuitous.


1.With Ren, when he had the mask on he was intimidating. He needed the mask yo put fear in you. He was using Vaders image to become bigger than he actually was. Having an actor like him shows venerability, a weakness, his humanity due to the connection to his parents. I thought the same thing as you at first but after thinking about it and discussing it, it made sense in the end.

I do agree completely with this.  The childish rage, self-loathing, and mixed emotions Ren showed were pretty much exactly how Anakin should've been played in the prequels.  He desperately wants to be what he imagines Vader was but is really just a less powerful Anakin.  This was conveyed extremely well in my opinion.  I also liked how "Kylo" was probably chosen as a deliberate portmanteau of "Skywalker/Solo". 


I enjoyed the movie overall, though the New Hope callbacks in details and the overall plot got to be a bit much.  Especially the Death Star III bit, though I liked having Han poke a little fun at it.  I was half-expecting someone to get their hand cut off in the end.  But I love the in media res feel of it, and can't wait for more backstory to get filled in next episode as Rey + Ren train with their respective masters.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2015, 10:40:56 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Oh yeah....Adam Driver has a major academy award nomination coming his way.   If we have to talk about guys who acted through a mask I'll take Dave Prowse or Boba Fett.

I will take Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Hayden Christiansen, Ian McDiarmid, Samuel Jackson, and Christopher Lee over anyone in this film, and that might even include a tired and disinterested Harrison Ford.

Furthermore let's make this clear about these "reviews".  Disney is a major player in Hollywood, but Lucas was despised. They tried to make him change his movies so he told them to go f themselves and left the director's guild. He's better than them and above them and they know it. "Reviews" was the only revenge they could get.

So now they feed us this junk and give it good "reviews". Disney made a billion dollar investment. There was no way the reviews were gonna be bad.
Nah.  That's utter nonsense.   Major Disney films get panned all the time.

ANyways, watch the Red Letter Media review series.  Highly entertaining and will explain to you why the prequels were despised and why this movie had to go back to basics.   If you do end up watching them, I'll be interested to see your response. 

Part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5919C8DE6F720A2D&v=FxKtZmQgxrI

Prequels weren't "despised" like you or the reviewer claims. They have a lot of fans, I don't like the "go watch this review" argument because it's lazy and the reviewer slanders and strawman George Lucas.
Sure... I'll concede that some people who were children when Phantom Menace came out really like "Jar Jar"...  Overall, those movies were seen as a giant disappointment...   They are widely seen as the biggest failure of George Lucas' career... and the massive amount of backlash they received played a significant part in Lucas selling the rights and moving on.  A large chunk of dedicated Star Wars fans hated him for what he did with the "special editions" and the prequels.  They blamed him for "ruining" Star Wars.   Is this not common knowledge?  This is a strange thread... I thought this was common knowledge.



Those movies were overall liked with Revenge of the Sith receiving an 80 percent on Rotton Tomatoes. It's not as "common knowledge" as you claim despite what the People vs George Lucas or the youtube reviewers say.
Revenge of the Sith wasn't that bad.   But let's not pretend like 'phantom menace" was embraced.  It disappointed many people and was seen as hacky.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_I:_The_Phantom_Menace#Reception

I will say, there's a fan-edit of the prequel trilogy that might actually be worth watching.   They cut out the majority of Phantom Menace, because it's mostly hot garbage.  The cut the remainder into one 2 hour long movie.  Even the opening scroll makes a lot more sense than the trade federation blockade nonsense in the original prequels.  From a storytelling perspective, it makes a lot more sense... they focus on Obi-Wan as the main protagonist.  It begins with his final show-down with Darth Maul.  His master is killed.  He barely survives.   By cutting out baby-Anakin and some of the ghastly dialogue from the "romance" scenes, they sort of make the relationship between Padme and Anakin work better... since part of the reason it failed was because we couldn't buy that the little 3 year old obnoxious kid from the  Phantom Menace was suddenly the love interest to Natalie Portman.    Also, it makes the beginning and end work a lot better, because it highlights how the Darth Maul fight mirrors Obi-Wan's final battle with Anakin.  In the Darth Maul fight, Maul has the higher ground... Obi-Wan is hanging below him ... he manages to force-flip over Maul and slice him down.    Then in the final battle, Obi-Wan has the higher ground.  Anakin is below him... Obi-Wan warns him, "Don't do it!!  I have the higher ground!  It's over!!"... you realize that from Obi-Wan's perspective, he's had that Darth Maul battle running through his head for years.  He realizes it was wreckless... he thinks about how Maul could have defeated him.  And here you have Anakin... about to try the same stunt... and yet Obi-Wan knows how to stop it.  Anakin is too cocky to hear Obi-Wan's warnings, so he tries the force flip over him...  Obi-Wan cuts him down in mid air... just like Darth Maul SHOULD have.  Thus it completes Obi-Wan's story arc to a certain extent. 

It helps the story a bit.  It's not perfect, but it makes sense.  Lucas needed other voices in the room telling him what needed to be trimmed out.   

"A Phantom Edit":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9LEhOZZbuk

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2015, 11:19:55 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Oh yeah....Adam Driver has a major academy award nomination coming his way.   If we have to talk about guys who acted through a mask I'll take Dave Prowse or Boba Fett.

I will take Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Hayden Christiansen, Ian McDiarmid, Samuel Jackson, and Christopher Lee over anyone in this film, and that might even include a tired and disinterested Harrison Ford.

Furthermore let's make this clear about these "reviews".  Disney is a major player in Hollywood, but Lucas was despised. They tried to make him change his movies so he told them to go f themselves and left the director's guild. He's better than them and above them and they know it. "Reviews" was the only revenge they could get.

So now they feed us this junk and give it good "reviews". Disney made a billion dollar investment. There was no way the reviews were gonna be bad.
Nah.  That's utter nonsense.   Major Disney films get panned all the time.

ANyways, watch the Red Letter Media review series.  Highly entertaining and will explain to you why the prequels were despised and why this movie had to go back to basics.   If you do end up watching them, I'll be interested to see your response. 

Part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5919C8DE6F720A2D&v=FxKtZmQgxrI

Prequels weren't "despised" like you or the reviewer claims. They have a lot of fans, I don't like the "go watch this review" argument because it's lazy and the reviewer slanders and strawman George Lucas.
Sure... I'll concede that some people who were children when Phantom Menace came out really like "Jar Jar"...  Overall, those movies were seen as a giant disappointment...   They are widely seen as the biggest failure of George Lucas' career... and the massive amount of backlash they received played a significant part in Lucas selling the rights and moving on.  A large chunk of dedicated Star Wars fans hated him for what he did with the "special editions" and the prequels.  They blamed him for "ruining" Star Wars.   Is this not common knowledge?  This is a strange thread... I thought this was common knowledge.



Those movies were overall liked with Revenge of the Sith receiving an 80 percent on Rotton Tomatoes. It's not as "common knowledge" as you claim despite what the People vs George Lucas or the youtube reviewers say.
Revenge of the Sith wasn't that bad.   But let's not pretend like 'phantom menace" was embraced.  It disappointed many people and was seen as hacky.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_I:_The_Phantom_Menace#Reception

I will say, there's a fan-edit of the prequel trilogy that might actually be worth watching.   They cut out the majority of Phantom Menace, because it's mostly hot garbage.  The cut the remainder into one 2 hour long movie.  Even the opening scroll makes a lot more sense than the trade federation blockade nonsense in the original prequels.  From a storytelling perspective, it makes a lot more sense... they focus on Obi-Wan as the main protagonist.  It begins with his final show-down with Darth Maul.  His master is killed.  He barely survives.   By cutting out baby-Anakin and some of the ghastly dialogue from the "romance" scenes, they sort of make the relationship between Padme and Anakin work better... since part of the reason it failed was because we couldn't buy that the little 3 year old obnoxious kid from the  Phantom Menace was suddenly the love interest to Natalie Portman.    Also, it makes the beginning and end work a lot better, because it highlights how the Darth Maul fight mirrors Obi-Wan's final battle with Anakin.  In the Darth Maul fight, Maul has the higher ground... Obi-Wan is hanging below him ... he manages to force-flip over Maul and slice him down.    Then in the final battle, Obi-Wan has the higher ground.  Anakin is below him... Obi-Wan warns him, "Don't do it!!  I have the higher ground!  It's over!!"... you realize that from Obi-Wan's perspective, he's had that Darth Maul battle running through his head for years.  He realizes it was wreckless... he thinks about how Maul could have defeated him.  And here you have Anakin... about to try the same stunt... and yet Obi-Wan knows how to stop it.  Anakin is too cocky to hear Obi-Wan's warnings, so he tries the force flip over him...  Obi-Wan cuts him down in mid air... just like Darth Maul SHOULD have.  Thus it completes Obi-Wan's story arc to a certain extent. 

It helps the story a bit.  It's not perfect, but it makes sense.  Lucas needed other voices in the room telling him what needed to be trimmed out.   

"A Phantom Edit":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9LEhOZZbuk

Did you know at one time, the Phantom Menace achieved a 97 percent on Rotten Tomatoes? And I don't care much for fan edits, I liked the movie the way it is.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2015, 09:22:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Ok I've seen the movie three times.

MASSIVE SPOILERS


Here's my theory that will maybe address some of the complaints.

Rey is Luke's daughter.  Everything seems to point to that. Star Wars is a story about Skywalkers afterall.  We need a Skywalker for the next generation.  It's Rey.  All sorts of hints.  Main hints:

- Naturally powerful with the force.  Seems familiar with the ways of the force and knows of the myths of Luke.   My original thought was that maybe she was a random youngling/padawan that somehow escaped the wrath of Ren and was put into hiding... so maybe she had some basic jedi training that she's forgotten Bourne Identity style... but i'm going with her being Luke's daughter.

- I think Han knows who she is.  He warms to her instantly.  Offers her a job.  In the watering hole with the 1000 year old elf woman, she asks who the girl is and it immediately cuts away... suggesting that Han knows.   Also, the Skywalker light-saber calls out to her.   And after her visions, the 1000 year old woman is like, "That was Luke's and his father's before... now it's yours... you take it".  She reacted towards Rey as if Han had just informed her, "uh yeah... that's Luke's daughter, but she doesn't remember who she is"... Then suddenly the light saber calls out to Rey and elf woman recognizes, "woah... we have a new hope... this is big... she needs that saber... she needs to find Luke... it's the will of the force".   All seems to suggest that Rey is the next in line.   Elf woman also says something like, "You already know nobody is coming back for you... but the belonging you seek is in front of you... someone can still come back"... and Rey responds knowingly... "Luke".  Even as the place is being bombed, the elf woman insists that Fin take the saber and give it to Rey.

- Despite the fact that she's never met Rey before, Leia and Rey embrace each other when they first meet at the Rebel Republic base.   They are connected not only by the force, but I think instinctively know they are family.   Also, Han has already filled in Leia about "the girl"... I suspect Leia knows it's her niece. 

-  This is a big one.  R2D2 has gone into "low power mode" ever since Luke went away.  But as soon as Rey arrives at the base and is in the general proximity of R2D2,  he beep boop beeps back to life.   Not a coincidence.  Also, R2D2 was in Rey's visions/memories. 

She's Luke's daughter.  But why was she abandoned? 

Here's where I think it gets interesting and after watching the movie 3 times, I think the visions/memories offer many clues. 

One thing that wasn't clear to me the first viewing was the timeline for Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.  It's now clear to me that he was displaying aggression from an early age.  As Leia puts it, "he had too much Vader in him".   It was also suggested that Snoke got to Ben at a young age and seduced him to the Dark Side.  It makes sense that Snoke would target an offspring of Anakin Skywalker, because he's strong with the force.   Leia/Han feel the main blame is with Snoke (though they clearly blamed themselves).  It was at this point that Leia decided he needed to be sent away to live with his religious fanatic uncle Luke who might be able to get through to Ben.   It didn't work out.  We're told that Ben turned on Luke and "destroyed all of it"... presumably killing all of the remaining new generation of Jedi that Luke was training.   Out of shame, Luke went into seclusion. 

I think this partially explains why Kylo Ren isn't very powerful.  He's naturally gifted in the force, but likely wasn't trained very long.  Originally, I thought he was training with Luke as a young boy, but it seems more likely that he wasn't formally trained for long.  He's still learning the ways of the force and Snoke himself says Kylo Ren has yet to complete his training.

I think there's another very key reason why Kylo Ren didn't come across "very powerful" in that final battle and it speaks more to his pathos and inner conflict.  You gotta understand that from Kylo Ren's perspective, the dark side of the force is what needs to be embraced for ultimate peace (side note:  Remember that it's all blatantly Nazi inspired... they felt that their methods would lead to a better world... the ends justified the means).  His grandfather, Vader, almost succeeded, but was "Seduced by the light side".  Think about that for a second... from Kylo Ren's perspective, Vader FELL to the light side... Vader didn't have the strength to murder his own son.  Kylo wants to finish what Vader started... and wants to prove he can succeed where his grandfather failed... hence why he had to murder his relative.     But he was obviously pained by it.  It wasn't easy for him.   He still feels the pull of the light side.  It still haunts him. 

So here's the thing... Let's assume for a moment that I'm right and that Rey is Luke's daughter.  That makes Rey the young cousin of Kylo Ren.  He would have held her as a baby... watched her as an innocent young child.  While he was going through all this inner struggle, Rey was pure light... but she was also dangerous.  She was naturally strong with the force and could be a major threat down the line if she was kept alive and trained.   

When Rey has her visions, we see her as a young child being dropped on Jakku and screaming "nooooOooo!!! don't go!!!"... We also see visions of Luke and R2D2 and visions of Kylo Ren.  The interesting thing about the visions of Kylo Ren is that Ren is surrounded by his "Knights of Ren" (only seen in this brief glimpse, but basically they are a group of his lackeys)



Presumably, this is the group that worked with Kylo Ren to cut down and murder the remaining Jedi.  The really interesting thing is that in Rey's vision, one of them is coming towards her... only to be lightsabered through the chest by Kylo Ren himself.   If you watch the movie again, watch specifically for that scene.  It's one of his own men that is coming towards Rey (shot from her perspective) and then Kylo Ren cuts him down.    We then cut to a shot of her at Jakku screaming "noooo!!!" while she's abandoned... and my girlfriend insists that the ship that is flying away is an Imperial First Order ship.   

All this leads me to believe that Kylo Ren, being seduced by the "light side" of the force, couldn't bring himself to murder his young baby Cousin.  This leads me to believe that one of the Knights of Ren was about to cut her down, but Kylo Ren himself murdered his own man... ultimately decided to let Rey live, mind-wiped her, and dropped her off on some desert planet... sparing her and hoping that his decision wouldn't come back to haunt him.  Keep in mind this was likely a decade before the movie's events start... and Kylo hadn't yet fully embraced the dark side.  Murdering family members wasn't something he could yet bring himself to do.

There seems to be evidence of this in how Kylo Ren reacts when he's told of "a girl" helping the Droid escape.   He seems to instantly know something.  He knows where Rey was dropped off... he knows how the force works... he knows that it's not a coincidence that "some girl" has helped a droid escape in the Millenium Falcon of all ships.    The force works in mysterious ways... and at that moment Kylo Ren realizes he dun fugged up.  He reacts in a fit of rage, smashing the console in front of him with his saber.

... This also explains why when they first meet... Kylo Ren reacts knowingly.  He's not hateful towards Rey.  He's curious.  He knows she's seen the map, of course, and she's an asset in that regard... but he also knows... this is his cousin... the cousin he spared.   Later when interrogating her, he taps into her mind... realizes that Rey has seen visions of an ocean/island (where we eventually realize Luke is staying)... realizes that Rey saw Han as the father figure she never had and tells her that Han would only disappoint her... but Rey starts to fight back with the force and this frightens Kylo.   His worst fears are coming true...  the cousin his spared is powerful with the force... she could prove to be a threat.    When he realizes she's escaped, he once again reacts in a fit of rage.   He knows this is his fault.   

Which brings me to my final point about the climactic fight between Kylo and Rey.  Not only do I think Kylo Ren is not fully trained in the force.. not only do I think Kylo Ren was semi-injured during that battle (Chewie shot his leg up)...  but I think Kylo Ren was absolutely holding back.  He doesn't want to kill Rey for the same reasons he couldn't bring himself to kill her as a little girl.   He's not going for the kill.  He's sparring with her.   She's jabbing and swinging and he's fending her off... and at one point he even tries to plea with her, "I can train you... join me!"...   He doesn't want to kill her.   She taps into the force, gains the upper hand and lashes out at him...  but I think if Kylo wanted her dead, she'd be dead.    This of course mirrors the early fights between Luke and Vader in which Vader essentially toys with Luke... not wanting to kill his son.

So anyways.  I think Han/Leia know who Rey was.  It wasn't their place to tell her the truth.  Of all people to send to see Luke, they decided to send Rey... a curious decision until you realize General Leia is keenly aware that Rey is perhaps the only person who can bring Luke back.  We then need to ponder what Luke's reaction is when he sees Rey on that mountain top.  Does he immediately know that is his daughter?  Did he believe her to be dead?   Has Luke himself lost his marbles a bit after years of seclusion?  Will he be fearful in training her... worried that she may be lost for good to the dark side?   

All of this I suspect, will be played out in more detail during the sequels.   Is there still good in Kylo Ren?  Will he fully embrace the Dark side or will his soft spot for Rey remain?  Will he be saved by Rey much like Vader was saved by Luke?  Will a greater threat appear?  Will Luke himself turn to the dark side?   What kind of twists and turns are in store for us? 

This is what was missing from the prequels.  There was no mystery.  I thought the new movie was a blast and I'm genuinely interested to see where the story goes from here.   

 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 09:43:26 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2015, 09:48:55 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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the group I was with thought the same as you on Ren. We also thought Luke could have mind wiped her to hide her from Ren.

Should be interesting. People are complaining about some things, but I think they are questions that will be answered in the next movie.

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2015, 11:26:21 PM »

Offline MBunge

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1.  The prequels were very poorly made.  Even "Revenge of the Sith," which gets over praised simply by not being quite as bad as the first two.  This isn't really a matter of opinion.  Of course, people can still like bad movies.  I enjoyed the Tim Story Fantastic Four flicks and they are both pretty terrible.

2.  I'd hold off on thinking that any of the relatively minor problems with TFA are actually part of some master plan.  It's most likely they're just mistakes.  I mean, Han just mentions The Force to Rey and she goes from someone who has never shown any Jedi abilities to being more powerful than Luke in "Empire?"  If you have to invoke Jason Bourne to explain it, it's really better to just admit that it doesn't hold up and move on.

Mike

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2015, 11:42:38 PM »

Offline MBunge

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#2 - No sense of humor - The prequels seemed like they were written by someone with autism or something.  No sense of humor at all.  In the original, they were able to improvise slightly.

Just watched the original again and the guy who wrote and directed it clearly didn't have the kind of condition you are talking about.  You can't give all the credit to the actors.  Lucas at that age absolutely had a solid grasp on emotions, humor and interpersonal relationships.  If anything affected him later on, it's decades of being insanely wealthy and surrounded by sycophants.

Mike

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2015, 12:10:03 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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2.  I'd hold off on thinking that any of the relatively minor problems with TFA are actually part of some master plan.  It's most likely they're just mistakes.  I mean, Han just mentions The Force to Rey and she goes from someone who has never shown any Jedi abilities to being more powerful than Luke in "Empire?"  If you have to invoke Jason Bourne to explain it, it's really better to just admit that it doesn't hold up and move on.

Mike
There's much of the story left to be explained.  I'm saying that these "minor problems' likely aren't problems at all.  She's obviously familiar with the force... otherwise why would she have even tried a jedi mind trick?  She knows of Luke SKywalker.  She knows of Han Solo.  And she's obviously naturally gifted in the force.  There's also points in her vision where you can hear Obi-Wan telling her "these are your first steps"... so for all we know, she's been communicating with Force Ghosts or at the very least is being guided by the force.   Luke Skywalker more or less gets a pep talk from Obi-Wan and is suddenly able to blow up a death star by closing his eyes... this isn't uncharted territory.   That combined with the fact that Kylo Ren just got blasted with a cross-bow that had previously been shown powerful enough to knock a normal person across the room (he was clearly in pain) and the fact that he was avoiding killing her... either for the reasons I explained or because he preferred keeping her as a student... I had zero problems with how any of that fight went down.  It was great.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 12:44:42 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Force Awakens. (Possible spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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#2 - No sense of humor - The prequels seemed like they were written by someone with autism or something.  No sense of humor at all.  In the original, they were able to improvise slightly.

Just watched the original again and the guy who wrote and directed it clearly didn't have the kind of condition you are talking about. You can't give all the credit to the actors.  Lucas at that age absolutely had a solid grasp on emotions, humor and interpersonal relationships.  If anything affected him later on, it's decades of being insanely wealthy and surrounded by sycophants.

Mike
George Lucas is a known anti-social.  He's very awkward.  Had trouble developing relationships.  Awkward on sets.  Went into it in the previous page, but he shows many signs of someone with aspergers. 

But more to the point, you suggested I'm wrong, because Lucas wrote the original "Star Wars".   You don't actually know what you're talking about.  I'll just cut and paste this super-fan's response from another website on "who wrote Star Wars":

Quote
Lucas began by writing a synopsis of the story in early 1973, then started working on a rough draft of a script the next year. Lucas' first draft was a mess: the story was confusing, far too long, and incredibly boring; the characters were terrible and bland; the dialogue was leaden and stilted; etc. He eventually produced at least 6 versions of the script (first/rough draft, second draft, third draft, then 3 different versions of the fourth draft), and he had lots of help during the revision process.

In Lucas' own words in an article from Mediascene Prevue #42, 1980:
Quote
    I think [I came up with the title The Star Wars before the story]. When I made the deal, I had to give it a name. I had been making notes, doing research over the years, but it wasn’t until I finished American Graffiti in ’73 that I actually started writing it. My original 14-page treatment didn’t bear much relationship to the final production, though.
From a site on the development of Star Wars:
Quote
    [In the first synopsis,] the story was very confusing and the spelling was horrible, since Lucas had never learned proper spelling or punctuation. His agent and lawyer were puzzled and did not understand the story, and it was actually due to the popularity of American Graffiti that they eventually managed to sell the film to Twentieth Century Fox—after it had been rejected by both United Artists and Universal Pictures.

    A rough [draft] was completed one year later in May 1974, and still carried the title The Star Wars. It was the first of four major drafts and several revised versions... When the screenplay draft was finished, however, Lucas still thought it was a mess.

    The Adventures of the Starkiller (Episode One): “The Star Wars” was the title of Lucas’s second draft which was delivered on January 28, 1975. This was a more character-driven story with more character development, which was important since Lucas wanted the film to make an emotional impact... He let his friends (among them director Francis Ford Coppola) read the scripts and tape-recorded their comments in order to get some advice. However, the suggestions from his wife Marcia (a film editor who later won an Oscar for Star Wars) were the ones he took most seriously, even though her criticism sometimes made him angry.

    The third [draft] which was finished on August 1, 1975 was called The Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Starkiller, and by this time, most of the plot was established. Lucas felt quite comfortable with his characters, but he still thought that the dialogue needed improvement, and was very concerned that his story might never make it to the silver screen.

    Lucas’s revised fourth draft was the one which was used when filming began in Tunisia on March 25, 1976. A slightly edited version of this draft, entitled Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope—From the Journal of the Whills, was published in 1979 as the official screenplay of the film (the final editing of that public version [of the fourth draft]—erroneously dated to January 15, 1976—was done after Star Wars went into production, probably after the film’s May 1977 release).

    Lucas had consulted his co-writers from American Graffiti (Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz) to sharpen the dialogue, which he felt lacked humour and bounce, and although he rejected most of what they came up with, their new ideas gave Lucas renewed confidence in his work.
Regarding A New Hope:

Lucas later commented on the contributions of Huyck and Katz, in the book Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays:
Quote
    Dialogue has never been my strong point, and so I talked to Willard and Gloria and asked them to do a quick dialogue polish. I gave them the fourth draft of the script, and they just improved the dialogue where they felt they could make a contribution. Then I took their changes, and sometimes I rewrote some of their lines. Some of their dialogue of course changed again when we started shooting. Some of it survived; some of it didn’t. They did about thirty percent of the dialogue.
The cast agreed with Lucas' assessment of his dialogue-related shortcomings. Carrie Fisher, Mark Hammil, and others frequently teased Lucas about this, and it is touched upon in audio commentary tracks and making-of documentaries. Harrison Ford was particularly outspoken, and his difficulties with Lucas' dialogue led him to improvise many of his lines in the series.
Quote
    Ford famously told George Lucas, concerning the clunky dialogue in "Star Wars," "George, you can type this ****, but you sure as hell can't say it."
Harrison Ford later confirmed this:
Quote
    "I told George: 'You can't say that stuff. You can only type it.'"
Regarding Ford's improvisation:
Quote
    Mark Hamill, for one, was amazed at the dedication Ford put into each and every line, stating, "He'd written things in the margins, saying the same thing basically, but his way. He had an amazing way of keeping the meaning but doing it in a really unique way for his character."
A George Lucas quote from Denise Worrell’s book Icons (1989):
Quote
    There are four or five scripts for Star Wars, and you can see as you flip through them where certain ideas germinated and how the story developed. There was never a script completed that had the entire story as it exists now. But by the time I finished the first Star Wars, the basic ideas and plots for Empire and Jedi were also done. As the stories unfolded, I would take certain ideas and save them; I’d put them aside in notebooks. As I was writing Star Wars, I kept taking out all the good parts, and I just kept telling myself I would make other movies someday. It was a mind trip I laid on myself to get me through the script. I just kept taking out stuff, and finally with Star Wars I felt I had one little incident that introduced the characters. So for the last six years [1977-1983] I’ve been trying to get rid of all the ideas I generated and felt so bad about throwing out in the first place.
Regarding Empire Strikes Back:

George Lucas quote from Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays:
Quote
    Writing has never been something I have enjoyed, and so, ultimately, on the second film I hired Leigh Brackett. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out; she turned in the first draft, and then she passed away. I didn’t like the first script, but I gave Leigh credit because I liked her a lot. She was sick at the time she wrote the script, and she really tried her best. During the story conferences I had with Leigh, my thoughts weren’t fully formed and I felt that her script went in a completely different direction.
A George Lucas quote from Alan Arnold’s book Once Upon A Galaxy
Quote
    I hired Leigh Brackett to write the screenplay, but tragically she died right after completing the first draft. Faced with the situation that somebody had to step in and do a rewrite, I was forced to write the second draft of this screenplay. But I found it much easier than I’d expected, almost enjoyable. It still took me three months to do, but that’s a lot different from two years. I also had the advantage of Larry Kasdan coming in later to do a rewrite and fix it up.
Lawrence Kasdan quote from Cinefantastique Vol. 28:
Quote
    What I worked on was a draft of the script George had written, based on the story George had given to Leigh [Brackett]. I don’t know what of Leigh’s draft survived into the draft George wrote. What George handed me was a very rough first draft, really somewhere between an outline and a first draft. The structure of the story was all there – it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”
Regarding Return of the Jedi (originally titled "Return of the Jedi" in early pre-production, retitled "Revenge of the Jedi" just before filming began, kept this title until 4 months before the film was released, when Lucas finally, officially changed the title back to "Return of the Jedi"):

Lawrence Kasdan quote from Starlog #51 (October 1981):
Quote
    [Kasdan is working from a] very rough first draft [script that George Lucas wrote. Kasdan will have to write Revenge of the Jedi quickly, since it begins shooting in January.] It’s a similar situation to the terrible time problem we had on Empire, but I think that this time I’ll have a much freer hand, because the Jedi screenplay that George gave me isn’t nearly as far along as Empire’s was.
Robert Watts quote from The Making of Return of the Jedi:
Quote
    The screenplay is the blueprint for everything, and without it you tend to flounder a bit. We’d had indications, we’d had discussions, we’d had drafts, but the final script did come very, very late.
You can see more here:  http://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/10555/how-much-of-star-wars-did-george-lucas-actually-write  ... along with links to the original terrible script and notes on how it differed from the one that made it to the screen.  It was VERY MUCH a collaborative process. 

The problem with the prequels... Lucas wrote it all with no input.  He directed it with no input.  He did all the casting.  It was his show from start to finish.. and they were pretty flawed... and this is someone who apparently has trouble communicating with people and admits he's terrible at writing dialogue.   George Lucas is not Steilberg.   Speilberg is a people person.  Lucas own personality reflects in his writing.  I'm not the first person to speculate he's got high functioning autism.  And if that offends you, it might just be that you aren't familiar with what high functioning autism is. 

Regardless, part of the reason this new movie works is because more people were involved.  They noted what people disliked about the prequels and addressed all of it.  They took things back to basics.  Far more humor.  A more simplified story.  Dialogue that actually works.  Characters that display actual characteristics.   It wasn't just a bunch of bland models spewing empty lines... which is what the prequels were and what the original Star Wars would have been had the script not gone through many revisions with tons of input.


« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 12:43:14 AM by LarBrd33 »