Author Topic: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations  (Read 6358 times)

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Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2015, 07:53:22 AM »

Offline 2short

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I actually don't think any one player has outplayed his counterparts enough to deserve the extra minutes. 

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »

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Inconsistent minutes leads to inconsistent performances.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2015, 11:57:13 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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The Celts rode their starting unit to a win tonight against a solid opponent.  Maybe Brad listened to Crowder.  :)


And I appreciate the post from BDeCosta above.  It's a really nice way to look at this season.  It really is.  This team will give us things to feel good about.  And there will be nights where we throw our hands up and go, "What the ?!" like we did after that Orlando game.


Nonetheless, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I like a lot of the players we've got on this team.  I made a post earlier today suggesting we might have a team that's one player away from being a contender if Ainge just adds a couple of above average starters to the mix next summer.

At the end of the day, though, the direction of this rebuild hinges on getting that one really amazing piece, and the draft lottery is going to be our second really good chance in this rebuild process, after the draft lottery in 2014, to secure one.

We could shuffle through every single "nice" piece we currently have before we find that one really amazing piece.  Or we might get that guy sometime over the next three years thanks to Brooklyn.  Or maybe Ainge will swing a trade for Cousins or something.  We'll see. 


I'm not advocating for the team to tank, though, so I don't agree with KG LL's quoted response.

Well, to be fair to Stevens. When you have a team with a roster full of pretty young guys and a few vets who at the start of the year seemed to be on a pretty even talent level, and no ones separated themselves from the pack yet, you have to give everyone some time to see who's gonna prove worthy of major minutes. Like he said, no one wants set rotations more than him. And we've had a lot of either blow out wins or pretty bad losses, so there's been a lot of garbage time floating around. In the last few closer games, particularly last night he kept a short rotation because he's beginning to trust what his key 8-9 players will do in close games.

But still, part of what makes Stevens such a good coach is he knows how to get guys to buy into a system that is designed to involve a lot of ball movement, and good shots for your better scorers. Since we started with a team lacking a lot consistently good scorers, Stevens has done a very good job finding the right combinations, riding the hot hands and making key time-outs and substitutions that are a huge part of us winning as many games as we have.

But I have to ask, do you really think that the Brooklyn picks are the only thing that matters? Sully turning into a walking double double is a great development, as is his much improved D and his conditioning certainly has and seems to be continuing to improvement made a huge three after playing a lot of minutes in the Miami game and he's making huge effort plays almost every night. If he keeps this up, he could turn into a pretty good trade chip, or a major part of a team that could be a 5th or 6th seed and be resigned. Bradley's offense is really progressing, he may not keep putting up 20+ Pts a night when Smart comes back but it's clear that AB is making at least a moderate leap. He was doing this a pretty good amount at the end of last season and his defense is back to elite level. How is that not of importance to the future?

What about Stevens, who's clearly established himself as a top-shelf NBA coach who like 80% of the other NBA franchises wished they had? He's established a real culture and system here. We've gotten a bunch of guys who are his kind of guys. Idk who's gonna be on the next great celtics team, but if Stevens is the coach I bet you the team is gonna be committed to tough defense, and ball movement. Getting guys to buy into that is one of the most important aspects of the past two seasons. Even if we get a star player or two via the Picks/trade, a few of our key current guys will still likely he here and this hard-work mentality will continue to prosper. Just using the past couple years to establish that matters big time. He's the kinda guy other guys wanna play for.

Sure, we could certainly get another 8th seed first round exit with no one making a leap. Some trades would be made, guys wouldn't be resigned and we'd use/trade our picks to try and get better talent. But if two or three of KO, Zeller. Sully, Amir, Jerebko and Lee can't play well enough to prove they deserve major minutes over the other guys then their probably not that good anyways. Luckily I think some of the guys are separating themselves. Up to now, Zeller played his way out of the rotation, Sully's established himself as the starting 4 on this team and a guy deserving of a fairly major role. Johnson has been our best defensive big. KO has had some good performances and is much improved defensively. Lee has given us pretty good performances lately and deserves the mediocre minutes he gets. As the season goes on the development of these guys will play a major role in our rebuild. This team is like the 5th youngest team in the NBA and could quite possibly be a 4th or 5th seed in the east with 45-50 wins. That is a major part of the rebuild. The Brooklyn picks matter in a HUGE way. But I think it's just disrespectful to our current team and ignores so many of the most important aspects of building a contender. Culture matters, development of role players matters, trade assets matter. Building a team and a system that play together and have infectious intensity matters. A great front office matters, great owners matter. All that has been coming together for the past couple years, and they don't hinge on the Brooklyn pick.

I hope you guys know I respect you as regulars posters here a lot, but I just think it's ridiculous to say that nothing we do this season matters, and I think just about everyone in the Celtics organization and a lot of NBA guys think the same way.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2015, 12:39:19 AM »

Offline Hemingway

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I have to disagree with the idea that "no ones separated themselves from the pack yet" I would say that Crowder and AB and Sully have separated themselves from Zeller, KO and Young.

Ainge might have very well told Brad you need to play everyone it make it easier for me to make deals, or something like that.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2015, 02:50:34 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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IT sharing Crowder's sentiment:

Quote
“It’s a strength and it could be a weakness just because coach knows we have a lot of guys, and he wants to give everybody an opportunity, which you should,” Thomas said.“But at the same time, when it’s winning time, put your best five out there.

“Not putting anything towards coach. He’s doing a great job. It’s just, as players, we’ve got to separate ourselves.”

Who would you pick as our 5 best (currently)?

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2015/11/celtics_notebook_roiling_rotation_causing_some_issues
The problem is that who the "best 5" are is situational. Crowder is a starter, but he is not so good that he is always in our "best 5". Even if we have a clear best 4 (like Rondo-Allen-Pierce-KG) and just needed to decide the 5th guy (Posey or Perk), we would see consistency. But everyone is too mediocre on this team.

I don't buy that the rotations are an issue, so long as people's roles are clear. I remember these same complaints when we were winning with Doc.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2015, 02:51:20 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I have to disagree with the idea that "no ones separated themselves from the pack yet" I would say that Crowder and AB and Sully have separated themselves from Zeller, KO and Young.

Ainge might have very well told Brad you need to play everyone it make it easier for me to make deals, or something like that.
Ah, yeah, Zeller and Young who regularly aren't even dressed to play.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2015, 02:52:59 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Inconsistent minutes leads to inconsistent performances.
Not really.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2015, 02:54:30 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The only events happening on an NBA court this season that really matter for the future of this Celtics franchise are those that occur while the Brooklyn Nets are playing.

This iteration of the Celts might win our hearts again like last year's team, or they might just flounder and remain very up and down, on the way to another 7th or 8th seed playoff appearance and first round exit. 

It's just a pageant to keep us entertained and focused on something other than the fact the team has no clear direction forward until the value of all those future picks becomes clearer.

Pretty much. This Celtics squad - smart included are really struggling to keep my attention this year for the aforementioned reason. Unless Danny can make a splash trade to grab some elite guys its merely just a countdown to the draft for me.
They are darn entertaining this season.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2015, 10:59:27 AM »

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Inconsistent minutes leads to inconsistent performances.
Not really.

It's been that way throughout the history of the league.

Consistent minutes / substitution patterns build better consistency and chemistry.

Inconsistent minutes / substitution patterns create inconsistent individual and then team performances.

Knowing how much you will play. Knowing when you come in and come out of games. Knowing which players you will play alongside you. All help create consistency.

Not knowing these things and constantly having to adapt to changes in your minutes, when you get those minutes and who the players are alongside you on the floor creates situations where your players are constantly having to adapt to change. Leading to inconsistency.

Pro players do better when given consistent minutes & roles.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2015, 11:03:53 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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You can't give players consistent minutes if they're not performing consistently.  Chicken and egg dilemma.  Does consistent play lead to consistent minutes, or consistent minutes lead to consistent play?  Or is it, like most things, some blend of the two.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2015, 11:19:12 AM »

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You can't give players consistent minutes if they're not performing consistently.  Chicken and egg dilemma.  Does consistent play lead to consistent minutes, or consistent minutes lead to consistent play?  Or is it, like most things, some blend of the two.
First step, Coach needs to create consistent minutes / roles / rotations.

Then coach changes it if players are not performing to satisfaction. I like giving 10-12 games (as a general rule) to see how things are working out before making a change / more changes.

A coach has to create a situation / environment where a player / lineups can find consistency. A coach is the first step in the process. It is his responsibility. From there, if a player fails, then it it becomes the player's responsibility. In that order.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2015, 11:23:02 AM »

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I think Stevens is to blame for a lot of the inconsistency problems right now. Especially the bigs who are all clearly uncomfortable with their status. Not knowing when they will come into games. Or how long they will get to play. Or who will be alongside them.

Stevens has created this problem with his own inconsistent minute / substitution patterns.

It's no surprise that they are struggling for consistency when their own coach makes so many changes game-to-game.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2015, 11:43:53 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I think Stevens is to blame for a lot of the inconsistency problems right now. Especially the bigs who are all clearly uncomfortable with their status. Not knowing when they will come into games. Or how long they will get to play. Or who will be alongside them.

Stevens has created this problem with his own inconsistent minute / substitution patterns.

It's no surprise that they are struggling for consistency when their own coach makes so many changes game-to-game.

It hasn't really been all that inconsistent, though.  Amir and Sully are the starters.  Kelly and D. Lee are the bench bigs.  For the most part, the two starters have been playing together and getting the bulk of the minutes, with Lee and KO acting as the "bench bigs."  When the bench bigs play well, their minutes are extended a bit, when they aren't they get an earlier hook.

A few times, when someone has been really struggling, he's given T. Zeller a look. 

For all the hand-wringing, the rotation hasn't really been unusually inconsistent. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2015, 11:45:37 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I think Stevens is to blame for a lot of the inconsistency problems right now. Especially the bigs who are all clearly uncomfortable with their status. Not knowing when they will come into games. Or how long they will get to play. Or who will be alongside them.

Stevens has created this problem with his own inconsistent minute / substitution patterns.

It's no surprise that they are struggling for consistency when their own coach makes so many changes game-to-game.


I disagree with much of this. I mean, I'm with you with the theory of giving players consistency and a decent amount of games as you mention as well.

But I'm not going to put the blame here on Stevens. No one's minutes had been more inconsistent in the beginning of the season than Amir, Sullinger, and Lee and all three are actually performing well. Heck, Lee starting playing better when his minutes became even more inconsistent.

Jerebko is getting consistent minutes off the bench, that was always going to be his role anyways, and he's simply not performed well at all. That's not on Stevens.

Zeller's problem was on the defensive end, he simply wasn't getting it done... getting played with and showing little resistance, so this is not on Stevens. He's playing what he deserves to play up to this point, though a case could be made for him to start playing and Stevens benching Olynyk, but I'm not seeing it.

Then we have Olynyk, Steven's binky who often gets more minutes than he deserves to be playing since he got on the league. No one gets more chances to establish himself on Stevens' team than Olynyk does, and he just hasn't made the progress some have expected of him. Thankfully his defense seems improved, but his shot selection has been as terrible as it's always been and combine it with him shooting it poorly and turning the ball over, and there's simply no way to rescue it. But his role on this team has been the same from the get go this season, being decreased a bit lately as others in the team have widened the gap.

So no, I don't think Stevens is actually to blame here.

Rotations wise, I actually think Stevens is doing a very good job this year. It would be quite easy to keep giving minutes to all our bigs, but he cut one of them out of the rotation fairly early (because of defense as I mentioned) and others have stepped up enough keep him on the bench for the time being.

The only gripes I could see is with the insertion of Rozier and Hunter more often than maybe Stevens should, but I'm also a believer of giving young players minutes, but I think Stevens is giving them too much.

The other is with Jerebko, but he's active and brings energy, Stevens likes that... so I'll deal with it.

One thing though I do not like is how long Stevens takes to put back his starters in the game after they go to the bench, particularly with Sullinger and Amir.

But minutes wise, I think players are playing what they should be playing for the most part... maybe a bit more playing time for our starting bigs is warranted, but that's a small thing really. The struggling players need to step it up, all of their struggles are really on them. They've gotten more chances than they should be getting as it is, with the exception of Zeller, but he's simply been outplayed.

Re: Crowder says team needs identity, set rotations
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2015, 12:28:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I hope you guys know I respect you as regulars posters here a lot, but I just think it's ridiculous to say that nothing we do this season matters, and I think just about everyone in the Celtics organization and a lot of NBA guys think the same way.

You're right.  It goes too far to say that nothing that happens in this regular season matters.

Instead, I'd say that the impact of where those picks fall, and who the Celts get, or don't get, as a result of where those picks fall, will have a much, much greater impact than anything they do on the floor this season.

There are plenty of nice stories to follow with this Celtics team.  I'm still not sure that anybody in the rotation right now will still be on the team a few years from now.  That is why I feel like this team is little more than an amusing distraction while we wait to see how those draft assets turn out, and what Ainge can do with them.
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