Author Topic: Tommy was kind of right  (Read 6700 times)

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Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 11:10:47 PM »

Offline konkmv

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Smart is bettwr than randle and clarkson

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 11:11:17 PM »

Offline konkmv

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And gordon

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2015, 11:14:27 PM »

Offline walker834

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I agree.  We made the right pick in that draft.  Embiid was so hyped but didnt want him due to the injury and i was right.  This past draft had some really good players at the top though.  I would have given up quite a bit to get a guy like Towns or Okafor.  Also really liked Kristaps was right there too. Those 3 guys really stood out to me.

Smart was my favorite player in college that year and so glad we took him. 

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 12:04:01 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.
Yup.   This is a classic CelticsBlog thread right here. 

"I'd rather have Jonas Jerebko than Aaron Gordon"...  It's right up there with "Kendrick Perkins is a better fit for this team than Hakeem in his prime"...  I officially nominate this for most Celticsbloggy thread of 2015... Great timing, too... like Oscar season, nobody remembers the threads from January.  Good to close out the year strong with this gem as we head into awards season.

Jerebko is 28 years old and averaging 3.1 points, 2.9 rebounds, 0.9 assists, 0.3 blocks and 0.3 steals with 34%/20%/87% shooting in 14mpg... he had 7 points, 3 rebounds and 3 assists tonight in 18 minutes and this thread gets created...

Gordon just turned 20 years old and is averaging 7.7 points, 5.1 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1.2 blocks and 0.6 steals with 44%/23%/67% shooting in 19.8mpg... He put up 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal tonight in 22 minutes. 

I still have Aaron Gordon ranked above Smart in trade value.  I have Smart above Randle for now, but Randle seems to be closing that gap.  He was dared to shoot jumpers last night and seemed to handle his business:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5-NSA9QAg


Randle has looked nice, but he reminds me of nobody so much as a young David Lee.  Nice, but not exactly a budding superstar.

He's closer to what you said before: Carl Landry I believe.
He's quicker and has a better handle than Landry.

With horrible defense to boot.
Not sure Defense is part of the game plan for the Lakers.

Probably, but Randle in particular stands out considering that their defense is actually better when he sits/
You going by stats cause defensive stats are very over rated considering there are so many variables involved.

And I haven't seen any of their games so I can't say myself. Would prefer to wait for the eye test on this.

Even by the eye test he doesn't pass, he gets lost on defense and he always late to contest the defender.
you guys referencing anything in particular or just relaying what you think you know about randle?  You watch a lot of Lakers games? 

I don't.  Not going to pretend I do.  But I see randle is tied with hibbert as the highest defensive rating.  Seems like an explosive rebounder and scorer.  A surprisingly good ball handler.  And seems to be working on his jump shot.

He turned 21 today. He's closing the gap on Smart.

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 12:30:04 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Of course you are. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 12:43:42 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Randle's on my fantasy team. Very 1 dimensional power forward.
Banner 18 please 😍

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 01:10:15 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Of course you are.


and of course you are




nothing wrong or worthy of concern here, not ever
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 01:31:13 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Gordon was picked before Smart, so where's the counterfactual?  Same with Clarkson, there's no way any team in the league is taking him 6. 

It's very fair to say that Smart has shown some major flaws but had some flashes of excellence, and that he keeps getting hurt too often to really confirm which one's closer to his long-term future.  I think we'll have a clearer sense of how to feel about Smart when he learns to stop playing like a wrecking ball and can stay healthy for extended stretches.

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 01:38:17 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Of course you are.


and of course you are




nothing wrong or worthy of concern here, not ever

I'm not saying there's "nothing worthy of concern . . . ever," I am saying, though, that I generally find it kind of silly to look around at every guy from the same draft as your guy, and say, "oh no, that guy looks pretty good, and that guy looks pretty good . . . we must have made a mistake with our guy."

Particularly, when we are only one season and about a month into their careers.  And when our guy is still giving plenty of reason for optimism.

I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears here.  I realize there's always the potential for catastrophe to strike at any minute.  I prefer to focus on the positives, though.  It makes it more enjoyable for me.  It doesn't mean that I ignore any negatives or potential negatives. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 02:17:07 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Randle's on my fantasy team. Very 1 dimensional power forward.
Yeah for now.

And Smart is a very 1 dimensional defensive role player... for now.  Well, for now, he's hurt.  But when he gets back... defensive role player for the time being, it seems.

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 02:46:37 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Gordon was picked before Smart, so where's the counterfactual?  Same with Clarkson, there's no way any team in the league is taking him 6. 

It's very fair to say that Smart has shown some major flaws but had some flashes of excellence, and that he keeps getting hurt too often to really confirm which one's closer to his long-term future.  I think we'll have a clearer sense of how to feel about Smart when he learns to stop playing like a wrecking ball and can stay healthy for extended stretches.


I know Gordon was taken before Smart, it's just that I'm seeing a lot of players from that draft blossoming and starting to look like nice players, while I still have many of the same concerns about Smart that I had this time last year.

Like I said, I've defended Smart many times, and I still think there's plenty of room for optimism about him.  I'm just worried, looking around at the other second year players, that the Celts might not have come away with one of the better all-around talents in that draft despite the high draft pick.

Doesn't help that Young does not seem to be any closer to earning a rotation spot.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 03:57:54 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd take Aaron Gordon over any of our young guys right now.

It's been very discouraging seeing a lot of these other 2014 guys blossoming (Gordon -- even in limited minutes, Lavine, Randle, Clarkson, etc) while Smart has mostly struggled and now is injured.

I've defended Smart a lot, but I'm beginning to worry about that pick.

Gordon was picked before Smart, so where's the counterfactual?  Same with Clarkson, there's no way any team in the league is taking him 6. 

It's very fair to say that Smart has shown some major flaws but had some flashes of excellence, and that he keeps getting hurt too often to really confirm which one's closer to his long-term future.  I think we'll have a clearer sense of how to feel about Smart when he learns to stop playing like a wrecking ball and can stay healthy for extended stretches.


I know Gordon was taken before Smart, it's just that I'm seeing a lot of players from that draft blossoming and starting to look like nice players, while I still have many of the same concerns about Smart that I had this time last year.

Like I said, I've defended Smart many times, and I still think there's plenty of room for optimism about him.  I'm just worried, looking around at the other second year players, that the Celts might not have come away with one of the better all-around talents in that draft despite the high draft pick.

Doesn't help that Young does not seem to be any closer to earning a rotation spot.

I hear you... some good players developing

Just looking at basic stats (points + rebounds + assists + steals + blocks ... subtract missed shots and turnovers) the rankings for second year players are

#1 Julius Randle
#2 Andrew Wiggins
#3 Clint Capela
#4 Dwight Powell
#5 Zach LaVine
#6 Jordan Clarkson
#7 Nikola Mirotic
#8 Elfrid Payton
#9 Nerlens Noel
#10 TJ Warren
#11 Rodney Hood
#12 Jerami Grant
#13 Aaron Gordon
#14 Nilola Jokic
#15 Marcus Smart
#16 Gary Harris
#17 Jabari Parker
#18 Doug McDermott
#19 Nik Stauskas
#20 Bojan Bogdanovic

... That's just raw stats, though.  Smart is hurt by his atrocious shooting.  He obviously makes a major impact as a defensive role player.  Also, I think some of the guys on that list are being called second year players even though they weren't taken in the 2014 draft (like Noel and Mirotic... both of which have struggled early this season despite being top 3 rookies last season).

If you sort them by per minute production (filtering only players averaging at least 15 minutes), Smart is #18 out of 24 players.    He's having a rough start statistically.  There's at least some reason to be concerned... especially with the injuries.  It's not like every prospect develops into a star just because they are wearing Celtic jerseys.  Smart still seems he could develop into a defensive role player like Tony Allen, but I am still holding out hope he'll have more offensive game.


Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 09:08:54 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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It'd be nice if we could look at Marcus Smart a month into his sophomore season and say he was guaranteed to be a superstar for the next decade and a half.

When I look at LarBrd33's list, though, I'm not seeing a bunch of names where I feel like we can say that for certain at this point.

Young players have ups and downs.  You get, what, maybe one every five years who shows he's a bona fide superstar before his twenty-second birthday?  It's really, really rare. 

I mean look at Aaron Gordon.  He's had a nice couple of weeks of basketball and is giving Magic fans reason for optimism, but there's no way he's proven he's a lock as a perennial all star or anything like that.  Actually, he's probably on a very similar pace in his development to Marcus Smart. 

Randle's putting up some decent numbers right now on an atrocious team.  Again, he's still trying to prove who he's ultimately going to be as an NBA player. 

Smart is still a top prospect from the 2014 draft class.  I figure everyone knows that.  Only a few overly fretful Celtics fans seem to doubt that at this point. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 09:33:46 AM »

Offline oldtype

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Despite my general pessimism at the moment, there's nobody on that list other than Wiggins who I would 100% unequivocally take over Smart. 2014 just isn't a particularly good draft class.


Great words from a great man

Re: Tommy was kind of right
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 10:29:41 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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It'd be nice if we could look at Marcus Smart a month into his sophomore season and say he was guaranteed to be a superstar for the next decade and a half.

------

Smart is still a top prospect from the 2014 draft class.  I figure everyone knows that.  Only a few overly fretful Celtics fans seem to doubt that at this point.


Sure, everybody would love to be able to say he was guaranteed to be a superstar for a decade and a half.


The fact that we can't do that isn't the basis of the concern being expressed here, though.



For me, Smart has shown me enough to give me optimism about his potential as an above average starter, maybe even a borderline All-Star caliber player.

But every young player has to reach a point where they stop just showing flashes here and there and actually start putting together an extended run of games where they show you what their ceiling might me.


There are plenty of things Smart has done consistently over time -- play great defense, force turnovers, show confidence taking shots from outside, keep the ball moving, make smart plays, hustle his butt off.  Every one of those things he does are really nice attributes to have in a player.  I'm glad he's on the team, and the Celts are significantly better with him than without him.  It's hard to find too many first or second year players you can say that about.

All of that said, what's the best month he's put together so far?

Probably April of last season, where he put up 8.3 points, 2.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, and 2.1 steals on 42 / 32 / 50 shooting in 30 minutes a game.  He was +12.4 in that month.

What's his signature game?  Maybe that performance against Westbrook and OKC?  Maybe last year against OKC, when he also scored in the mid twenties.   Smart has three 20+ point games in his career so far.


Based on all of that, I guess where I'm at is that I have zero doubt Smart will help teams win for a long time so long as he stays healthy.  I'm just worried about whether he'll ever come close to being a genuine, consistently productive offensive piece, which is what you hope to get when you pick a guy in the top 10.



Then again, the counter here is that you could probably make a similar worried argument about a number of these exciting prospects.  Not many of them have put together a lot of high production performances, and those that do have such performances have mostly done so on teams that weren't playing for anything at the time. 

Following the Celts so closely and placing a lot of hopes on Smart in particular means being able to see the flaws a lot more clearly in this case.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain