Author Topic: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think  (Read 12854 times)

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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2017, 11:01:08 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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  There are a ton more factors you are not considering.  The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas.  Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor.  He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.

I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.


There is a pretty straightforward explanation of the team defensive numbers though, that shift the blame fairly clearly off of Thomas as an individual.

If you look at the defensive rating of lineups with all three of IT+AB+MS on the floor (i.e, "3-guard" lineups) they have a DRtg of about 116.   In other words, truly, horrendous.   In fact, this pattern holds true for all of our "3-guard" lineups (involving any three of IT, AB, MS & TR).  Those lineups were just awful on defense.

The motivation for using those three-guard lineups was obvious in the case of the ones with IT:  They had similar hefty offensive rating numbers.   Unfortunately, the ones without IT had horrible offensive ratings.

3-guard lineups accounted for a very large percentage of IT's minutes on the floor last year:

IT+AB+MS  : 418 minutes, 115.0 DRtg
IT+AB+TR  :   30 minutes, 123.7 DRtg
IT+MS+TR :  118 minutes, 116.0 DRtg

That's a huge 566 minutes, a solid 20% of Thomas' minutes on the floor this year at a 115.7 DRtg.

In 1766 minutes of exclusive two-guard lineups (IT plus just one of AB, MS or TR), the DRtg was a much better 112.3.

In the 773 minutes that IT played just with Avery (no Smart, no Rozier) the team defensive rating was 109.1   That's a pretty hefty difference from the numbers up above.

The point of this is that, stats like DRPM were almost certainly being heavily swayed by the statistical weight of the Celtics' super-heavy use of 3-guard lineups last year.   It's notable that Avery Bradley, who like IT had a huge share of his minutes in such configurations, also scored poorly in DRPM.

Here next is where there is likely reason for optimism going forward:

In the 247 minutes IT played _without_ any of Avery, Smart or Rozier -- i.e., primarily one-guard plus all wings & bigs (most of it with Brown, Crowder, Horford + Amir),  the team defensive rating was 104.9  (while still maintaining a hefty 112.4 ORtg!!).

THAT latter number is probably closer to what we might expect with the new roster going forward, where we play IT more often with either 3-wings and a big or 2 wings and 2 bigs.

Danny has given Stevens the tools to play much bigger around Thomas this year.  Hopefully he will take advantage of those tools.

Edit: Fixed quoting.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:46:29 AM by mmmmm »
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2017, 11:02:17 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
It's good that he's not 5'9 then? (yes, that again :P).

IT4 is 5'7  ;D

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2017, 11:27:00 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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His offense is worse than you think. 

Maybe it evens out.

Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.

He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.

On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).

He is sixth among pgs in PER.

He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.

He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.

He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high.  He's a borderline top 50 player right now.  42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.   

I'm not knocking him.  He's our best offensive player.  But I'd say his defense is about as underrated as his offense is overrated.

Umm... yes, his USG is very high.  It was 34.0% last season.  But that's what makes his incredible offensive _efficiency_ last year even more special.

Only 5 players in the history of the NBA have ever posted a TS% above 60% while also carrying both a USG above 30% and an AST% above 30%.   And Thomas is the only one of those to do it while also having a super-stingy TOV% below 11%.

The other 4 players to do this were:   Lebron (4 times), Curry (2x), Harden (2x) and Jordan.

It is extremely, extremely difficult to maintain elite scoring efficiency when a player's USG is that high.  It is even more difficult when they also carry a huge ball-handling burden.

Hopefully, with Gordon Hayward added, Thomas won't have to carry quite so heavy a share of the offense, but there is also hope that his efficiency may actually go even higher because of that.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2017, 11:28:45 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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I repeat: This thread is from 2 years ago.

The numbers and arguments are outdated.

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2017, 11:36:31 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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His offense is worse than you think. 

Maybe it evens out.

Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.

He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.

On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).

He is sixth among pgs in PER.

He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.

He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.

He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high.  He's a borderline top 50 player right now.  42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.   

He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context.  He's 97th in the league in TS%.

Are you trolling?   You just threw THAT down without any context.   You just included everybody and their drunk uncle who played in the NBA, even if they only took a couple of shots all season.   You included a huge ton of guys with USG% rates in the single-digits.

The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among the 271 players who actually played enough to qualify for the leader boards, Thomas ranked 15th in TS%.   And of the 14 guys ranked above him, the vast majority are bigs whose only scoring attempts consisted of dunks.

The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among players with high USG% and high AST% rates, his efficiency was truly elite.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2017, 11:47:57 AM »

Offline ThePaintedArea

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His offense is worse than you think. 

Maybe it evens out.

Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.

He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.

On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).

He is sixth among pgs in PER.

He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.

He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.

He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high.  He's a borderline top 50 player right now.  42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.   

He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context.  He's 97th in the league in TS%.

Are you trolling?   You just threw THAT down without any context.   You just included everybody and their drunk uncle who played in the NBA, even if they only took a couple of shots all season.   You included a huge ton of guys with USG% rates in the single-digits.

The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among the 271 players who actually played enough to qualify for the leader boards, Thomas ranked 15th in TS%.   And of the 14 guys ranked above him, the vast majority are bigs whose only scoring attempts consisted of dunks.

The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among players with high USG% and high AST% rates, his efficiency was truly elite.

Good points, keeping things in perspective. Note that his ts% was a point higher than Curry's.

His assist% was 32.5 and his turnover% an amazing 10.7 - at a usage rate of 34%! - his stellar shooting and scoring was only the beginning.

I'd hope that his usage goes down a bit, saving some of the wear and tear on his body, now that he's got some more support in shot-creation.

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2017, 11:49:48 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I repeat: This thread is from 2 years ago.

The numbers and arguments are outdated.

Agh!  My bad.  I fell into the zombie-thread trap!

Oh well, the numbers I just posted are all current and maybe relevant.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2017, 12:02:46 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
It's good that he's not 5'9 then? (yes, that again :P).

IT4 is 5'7  ;D
Yup, but this year we're getting the upgraded and growth-spurted  IT5 version, so he'll be 5'8 :P
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2017, 12:41:04 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Sorry for the bad quality but this was a famous play back in the day:




That's great lol. I can remember that he hustled, but he had to have been a net liability on defense.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2017, 01:35:37 PM »

Offline playdream

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  There are a ton more factors you are not considering.  The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas.  Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor.  He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.

I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.



In the 247 minutes IT played _without_ any of Avery, Smart or Rozier -- i.e., primarily one-guard plus all wings & bigs (most of it with Brown, Crowder, Horford + Amir),  the team defensive rating was 104.9  (while still maintaining a hefty 112.4 ORtg!!).

THAT latter number is probably closer to what we might expect with the new roster going forward, where we play IT more often with either 3-wings and a big or 2 wings and 2 bigs.

Danny has given Stevens the tools to play much bigger around Thomas this year.  Hopefully he will take advantage of those tools.

Edit: Fixed quoting.
Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude

If he is healthy he can be horrible on defense and still score more point than he lose so i am fine with it

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2017, 01:40:09 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P

You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2017, 02:59:02 PM »

Offline playdream

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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P

You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end

as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2017, 03:04:48 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P

You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end

as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2017, 04:14:12 PM »

Offline ThePaintedArea

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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P

You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end

as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.

All this new position terminology has caused a lot of confusion, it seems, though the term "wing" has meant both 2's and 3's for a long time now.

First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career.  For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.

Incidentally, I believe that the concern about Jae's "attitude" is a myth.

But surely he moves to the bench now, where his versatility and super-efficient usage will give bench units more flexibility.

Brown logged some minutes guarding 1-4 this past season and looks to be the real successor to Bradley, albeit with more height and length, and 40 pounds added.

I think the starters are:

Horford
Morris
Hayward
Brown
Thomas

6 Smart
7 Crowder
8 Baynes

I believe that that makes Tatum 9 and leads to a minutes crunch, especially when he gets his footing and earns his way into the rotation.  Stevens has been in Popovich territory for managing minutes, but the roster is loaded with guys who deserve floor time.

Re: Isaiah Thomas' Defense is Better than You Think
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2017, 04:20:31 PM »

Offline playdream

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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P

You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end

as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
It's Brown/Hayward