Poll

Trade Kelly plus every pick this year minus Brooklyn's For Giannis.

Yes. Please give us a real SF.
6 (26.1%)
No. Just draft two SF's.
13 (56.5%)
I'd trade anyone on our roster for the Greek Freak.
4 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Author Topic: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak  (Read 4751 times)

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Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2015, 04:12:03 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Looking back Gianni's is the best player from the 2013 draft. Wow. We could have had the best player at the #13 selection.

 And OP is so correct that Ainge said, Kelly will be a good complimentary player, when we could have had someone with star potential. What a bad pick smh.

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2015, 04:26:13 PM »

Offline sahara

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Looking back Gianni's is the best player from the 2013 draft. Wow. We could have had the best player at the #13 selection.

 And OP is so correct that Ainge said, Kelly will be a good complimentary player, when we could have had someone with star potential. What a bad pick smh.

Wait what? The OP being you.. Way to high five yourself. Lol.

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2015, 04:40:17 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I maybe woud prefer to have had Gobert. He's a one man defense. Perfect to play small ball around.

But yeah, Giannis is having a really nice year so far and he's knocking down 3's. He's still not 21 yet. Jeez.
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Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2015, 05:07:41 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If the Brooklyn 1st became the #1 pick, it wouldn't take much more to land Giannis, if at all more. But until then, you'd probably have to include Smart and a good-looking pick.

If the Brookyn pick turned out a #1 pick, then I'd never trade it for Giannis.

He's a good player with a bright future, but he is no superstar yet and I am not sure he'll ever become one.  He might prove me wrong - I'd be happy enough to just take my chances on the draft. 

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2015, 05:13:29 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Umm... I actually like Ingram or Simmons and even Poetl more than Giannis... I don't get why everyone is so stuck on this guy. Its over. The Bucks would never trade him nothing short of a superstar, and even then their going for a youth movement.

Yes, I love Giannis, but while people are critical of Ainge, 12 other GM's also missed out on him.

And Ainge does not draft players that are overseas and with limited potential.
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Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2015, 05:29:28 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Looking back Gianni's is the best player from the 2013 draft. Wow. We could have had the best player at the #13 selection.

 And OP is so correct that Ainge said, Kelly will be a good complimentary player, when we could have had someone with star potential. What a bad pick smh.

Lets all please give Danny a break, shall we?

First of all, Giannis was taken at #15, and Boston's pick was #16.  As far as i'm aware the only way Boston could have drafted him is to trade for the #13 pick, then select him themselves.  As far as I am aware that was never an option because they didn't trade for the #13 pick, they traded for Kelly Olynyk (who Dallas selected at #13).

I'm not sure that the Jazz were willing to give up the #14 pick, and I'm not sure that Milwaukee were willing to give up #15.   

Secondly, it's so easy for everybody to make criticisms 3 seasons later when we all have the benefit of actually seeing these guys develop - it's not so easy when you are there on the day, and none of these guys have played an NBA minute, and nobody has an idea who is going to be a beast/bust.

As has been said, Giannis is arguably the best player in that draft, yet he went at #15. That means there were 14 teams who passed on him, which obviously tells you that very few team (possibly no teams at all) actually predicted he was going to be as good as he is.  Even if Milwaukee was higher up in the draft (say, in the top 10) - how do we know that even they wouldn't have passed on him?

Danny had the #16 pick, and traded to grab Olynyk at #13 instead.  In hindsight, there were really only 4 guys taken from #16 onwards who have because rotation quality NBA players (Schroeder, Dieng, Gobert, Plumlee)...so if Danny didn't trade for Olynyk and decided to keep #16, chances are we would have ended up with a player much worse than Olynyk.

In fact the only guy on that list who is really better than Olynyk is Gobert, and almost 30 teams passed on him.

So it's not really fair to criticise Danny for making a bad pick.  Taking Olynyk was a very good  draft decision once you factor in where Boston were situated in the draft, and which players went after him.  If you go in to the draft get a quality rotation player at #16, then you had a very good draft.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 05:45:08 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2015, 05:37:51 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Looking back Gianni's is the best player from the 2013 draft. Wow. We could have had the best player at the #13 selection.

 And OP is so correct that Ainge said, Kelly will be a good complimentary player, when we could have had someone with star potential. What a bad pick smh.

Lets all please give Danny a break, shall we?

First of all, we never had the #13 pick, we had the #16 pick.  Danny traded with Dallas to acquire Kelly Olynyk after the Mavericks had already selected him. 

Giannis was taken at #15, and Boston's pick was #16.  The only way Boston could have gotten him is by trading up before the draft got to him, or by trading with Milwaukee to acquire him.  I've seen nothing to suggest that either trade was available.

Secondly, it's so easy for everybody to make criticisms 3 seasons later when we all have the benefit of actually seeing these guys develop - it's not so easy when you are there on the day, and none of these guys have played an NBA minute, and nobody has an idea who id going to be good or be a bust.

As has been said, Giannis is arguable the best player in that draft, yet he went at #15. That means there were 14 teams who passed on him, which obviously tells you that he had a number of factors going against him - enough factors to convince every single lottery team in the draft that he wasn't worth drafting.  Hardly fair to criticise Danny for making a bad selection (even if he did have the chance, which he didn't) when every single other lottery team obviously felt the same way.

Danny had the #16 pick, and traded to grab Olynyk at #13 instead.  In hindsight, here is a list of all the guys taken from pick #16 onwards who have gone on to become half decent NBA players:

* Dennis Schroeder
* Gorgiu Dieng
* Rudy Gobert
* Mason Plumlee

That's 4 guys out of 45 (still on the board at #16) who actually went on to become decent NBA players.  Of those four, only one (Gobert) is really starting caliber - it's debatable whether the other three are any better than Olynyk.

So realistically, the only guy Ainge could have taken who would have turned out better than Olynyk was Gobert.  The fact that he ended up going #27 shows that no team in the league had any clue he would become as good as he has, so it's hardly fair to criticise Danny for making a "bad pick". 

Trading for Olynyk was a good move.  He's as good as or better than every signle guy on the list > #16 other than Gobert.

 Lets please stop criticising Danny for not drafting a player that he wasn't in a position to draft.

Thank you.

Everyone always criticizes Danny the GM, but honestly the fact we're even talking about even landing a top 5-10 pick from the Brooklyn Nets is something amazing.

We have an opportunity to do what most teams cannot.

Compete for a playoff spot, while having another team possibly at worst give us a top 13 pick, which is still valuable.
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Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2015, 05:48:53 PM »

Offline crownontherocks

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 Really my point is Danny really screwed us on the Olynyk pick. We could have had him. Now we would have to trade the farm for him. Really too bad.
When Ainge traded up, I thought for sure that it was to take Giannis.  So I thought Ainge blew it from the start.  Especially when I heard him call Olynyk a good complementary, role player in an interview after the draft.  Our rebuild would look a lot better if we had Giannis. 

However Ainge wasn't the only one to blow it.  Hinkie's plan was to go all out to get a star and yet he took MCW over Giannis.

I thought the same thing when the celtics traded up. I was so pumped then i saw KO i knew it would be a big mistake

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2015, 06:24:22 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Three first round picks for Giannis?  Geez, that is a high price for a guy who doesn't look like he is going to be a top level superstar (more likely a 'B' level star).

I don't think Olynyk has much trade value, though, so I'm not sure he'd sway the deal one way or the other.  I suppose if we were only giving up what project to be picks in the 20's three picks might be ok, but I'd pass.  No way I give up any of the Brooklyn picks for Giannis.

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2015, 06:49:38 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Looking back Gianni's is the best player from the 2013 draft. Wow. We could have had the best player at the #13 selection.

 And OP is so correct that Ainge said, Kelly will be a good complimentary player, when we could have had someone with star potential. What a bad pick smh.

Lets all please give Danny a break, shall we?

First of all, Giannis was taken at #15, and Boston's pick was #16.  As far as i'm aware the only way Boston could have drafted him is to trade for the #13 pick, then select him themselves.  As far as I am aware that was never an option because they didn't trade for the #13 pick, they traded for Kelly Olynyk (who Dallas selected at #13).

I'm not sure that the Jazz were willing to give up the #14 pick, and I'm not sure that Milwaukee were willing to give up #15.   

Secondly, it's so easy for everybody to make criticisms 3 seasons later when we all have the benefit of actually seeing these guys develop - it's not so easy when you are there on the day, and none of these guys have played an NBA minute, and nobody has an idea who is going to be a beast/bust.

As has been said, Giannis is arguably the best player in that draft, yet he went at #15. That means there were 14 teams who passed on him, which obviously tells you that very few team (possibly no teams at all) actually predicted he was going to be as good as he is.  Even if Milwaukee was higher up in the draft (say, in the top 10) - how do we know that even they wouldn't have passed on him?

Danny had the #16 pick, and traded to grab Olynyk at #13 instead.  In hindsight, there were really only 4 guys taken from #16 onwards who have because rotation quality NBA players (Schroeder, Dieng, Gobert, Plumlee)...so if Danny didn't trade for Olynyk and decided to keep #16, chances are we would have ended up with a player much worse than Olynyk.

In fact the only guy on that list who is really better than Olynyk is Gobert, and almost 30 teams passed on him.

So it's not really fair to criticise Danny for making a bad pick.  Taking Olynyk was a very good  draft decision once you factor in where Boston were situated in the draft, and which players went after him.  If you go in to the draft get a quality rotation player at #16, then you had a very good draft.
On draft day, I don't think you can trade the picks themselves.  You have to have the team with the pick draft the player you want and then make the trade.  Rondo was officially drafted by the Suns but he was Ainge's pick.  Ainge had Dallas draft Olynyk but he could have had them draft Giannis. 

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2015, 07:06:36 PM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

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Three first round picks for Giannis?  Geez, that is a high price for a guy who doesn't look like he is going to be a top level superstar (more likely a 'B' level star).

I don't think Olynyk has much trade value, though, so I'm not sure he'd sway the deal one way or the other.  I suppose if we were only giving up what project to be picks in the 20's three picks might be ok, but I'd pass.  No way I give up any of the Brooklyn picks for Giannis.

This.

Really getting tired of all the what-aboutery and what-ifery surrounding this draft. It's done. Milwaukee ended up with the best player in the late lottery, we ended up with a pretty good one. But while Giannis has potential there is no way he is worth 3 first round picks.

FWIW, I was banging the drum for Schroeder back in the day and still get annoyed we didn't pick him... but overpay for him now? No thanks.

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2015, 07:20:17 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Three first round picks for Giannis?  Geez, that is a high price for a guy who doesn't look like he is going to be a top level superstar (more likely a 'B' level star).

I don't think Olynyk has much trade value, though, so I'm not sure he'd sway the deal one way or the other.  I suppose if we were only giving up what project to be picks in the 20's three picks might be ok, but I'd pass.  No way I give up any of the Brooklyn picks for Giannis.
Who are some of the players you consider B level stars?  I'm not sure if you are undervaluing Giannis or overvaluing draft picks. 

I'd trade 3 draft picks in the 20s for Giannis in a split second.  Look at his improvement each season and how he is performing so far this season and consider that he is just about to turn 21.  He's on a better track than Jimmy Butler for example and is 5 years younger. 

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2015, 07:24:49 PM »

Offline chambers

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Not sure why you think it was a bad pick. Giannis was a very raw, very inexperienced teenager.
Taking him was an enormous gamble. If he'd taken him and he'd sucked, Ainge would be hearing it from everyone here.
He can't win.
Kelly was a good pick. If the draft were re-drawn Kelly would go top 10.


As for the 3 firsts, I wouldn't give up that much for him.

We have one of the best opportunities in the last 25 years of this franchise to be picking in the top 3 on lottery night so I wouldn't give up that opportunity unless the player was a proven franchise level guy.
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Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2015, 07:46:32 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Here is the point. Ainge needs to swing for the fences with these next draft picks coming up. Kelly is who he is he's a solid safe pick that's going to turn into an average a good player. Where with Gianni's he might have been a terrible or he might be unreal turns out it's leaning towards unreal that's why I was a bad pic Avery Bradley it was one of those upside pics. Gerald green didn't with out here, that's OK.

Re: Poll: Kelly and three firsts for the Greek Freak
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2015, 08:51:39 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Here is the point. Ainge needs to swing for the fences with these next draft picks coming up. Kelly is who he is he's a solid safe pick that's going to turn into an average a good player. Where with Gianni's he might have been a terrible or he might be unreal turns out it's leaning towards unreal that's why I was a bad pic Avery Bradley it was one of those upside pics. Gerald green didn't with out here, that's OK.

Ainge doesn't "need" to do anything.

His job as a GM is to decide what is best for the team at a given time.  Every single draft there are going to be guys who are high risk, high upside players.  It's up to a GM like Ainge to look at such players and determine what is the level of risk being taken (i.e. what is the probability of the player busting) versus the potential payoff (what is that player's apparent ceiling). 

As far as risk you had a guy who was going to be stashed overseas, which is high risk - you don't gain the benefit of having him on your team, but still have the risk of him getting hurt.  Secondly he was incredibly skinny, and you don't know if he'd be able to fill out that body - really skinny guys don't always work out in the NBA, so that adds risk.  Secondly you had a guy who was extremely raw, and hence had a LONG way to go to develop into an NBA player.  Hence the chance of him being a bust was ultimately, very high.   

As far as potential, Giannis was never an elite scorer (e.g. Durant, Melo) nor did he have the PG-like handles or court vision (e.g Lebron) so his likely ceiling offensively was that of a "good" offensive player rather than a great one.  Maybe a rich man's Nicholas Batum?  That's a nice piece to have, but it's not somebody you would be willing to take a huge gamble on.

Joel Embiid was the type of talent you WOULD take a huge gamble on.  The base was there for him to become a potential top 5 big, so even with those health concerns any team would take the gamble.

When Danny has two 1st round picks he'll usually spend the first pick on a guy who he sees as a safe bet, and who has a high chance of becoming a quality player.  Then he tends to use the second on a 'gamble pick'.  In this draft he didn't really have a safe bet available at #16, so he moved up a few spots to take one.

Ultimately things turned out just fine.

Again, it's easy in hindsight to look back and say "I should have done xyz".  But you don't have the benefit of hindsight at the time. 

This year Ainge gambled on Rozier because he felt he had a huge upside, and look how much blacklash he has copped for that. You can't please everyone.

At the end of the day, every decision he has made has been a good one.  Maybe not the "best" one, but good.