Author Topic: Oladipo benched.  (Read 9011 times)

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Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2015, 02:24:07 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I might look into the phrase "a couple picks".  I'd say "heavily protected firsts or 2nds right?"

I was thinking something like Mavericks 2016 + Timberwolves 2016.  Oladipo's far better than anybody we're likely to take with those picks (especially since the Minny pick is probably gonna be 2 second rounders).  The Dallas pick is looking like a lock for #15-20.  We need to shed some of these picks one way or another, regardless.  Don't have roster spots for another wave of might-be-role-players.
It's a risk but a bit of a responsible one involving selling Avery at his peak. I'd probably go in on that in general

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 04:22:24 PM »

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Oladipo is not the player we're looking for.


Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Oladipo has always seemed more kemba Walker than Dwayne Wade to me. 

Though it's weird to say that, because Kemba (who traditionally shoots 38% and 30% from three) is balling 14 games into the season (46% shooting and 40% from three).  Still, Oladipo is inefficient and with the way guys like Fournier are playing, a lineup of PG - Elfrid, SG - Fournier, SF - Harris, PF - Gordon, C - Vucevic makes the most sense imo... with Mario and Oladipo bringing energy off the bench.

Interesting they are starting Frye tonight...  Maybe they don't like the idea of playing Gordon at PF... but he seems to clearly be a future starter.  He's been their best player in multiple games this season.     

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 07:14:48 PM »

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Playing the Knicks and Porzingis tonight.

I wonder if Frye is starting just to matchup better with Porzingis. Melo at SF as well. No way Fournier could defend Melo one-on-one. Too weak physically. Now they have Tobias Harris at SF who has the size to battle with Melo. Get more size on the floor.

I wonder if Frye will go back to the bench after this game.

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 07:52:15 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Orlando wouldn't take that deal, anyhow.  Bradley is a lesser version of Oladipo without the potential for improvement, Rozier may or may not be an NBA player, and the picks we'd offer would probably be mid-1sts.

That's really quite debatable.

Oladipo is 23 years old and is in his third NBA season.  Bradley at the age of 23 was in his 4th NBA season, but I think it's fair to compare stats to the point since Bradley barely saw playing time in his rookie year (due to a combination of his injury and the level of talent on the team).

So, lets compare Oladipo's career stats so far, against Bradley's stats up to (and including) the 2013/14 season - where he was 23 years old.
 

Scoring output

Oladipo is 23 years old and has averaged 16.9 Point Per 36 so far for his career. 

Bradley was averaging career scoring numbers of 14.1 Points Per 36 by the end of the 2013/14 season. 

Oladipo has definately scored more points on a Per minute bases, if you factor in the dramatic difference in their scenarios (Bradley playing behind three HOF in Boston, versus Oladipo plying big minutes on a lottery team) Oladipo obviously has had more offensive opportunity.

All things considered, I'd say they are about on par.
 

Shooting Percentages

Oladipo has shot 42.3% from the field, 32.6% from three and 79.8% from the line so far for his career.

Bradley was averaging career percentages of 43.8% from the field, 36.6% from three and 78% from the line by the end of the 2013/14 season.

The thee point shooting clearly puts things in Bradley's favor here.


Finishing around the basket

So far in his career Oladipo has taken 30.3% of his shots inside three feet, and he has shot 55.7% on those shots.

By the end of the 13/14 season Bradley had taken 27% of his shots inside three feet, and he shot 58.8% on those shots.

Bradley actually finished better around the basket than Oladipo. 


Point Guard Skills

Over his career so far, Oladipo has averaged 4.1 APG and 2.9 TPG, for a career average of 1.41 Assists Per turnover.

Up until the end of the 13/14 season, Bradley averaged 1.4 APG and  1.2 TPG, for a career average (at the time) of 1.16 Assists Per Turnover.

Oladipo has been a better playmaker, but not by much. 


Defense 

By the end of the 2013/14 season Avery Bradley had already made an All Defensive team and was widely recognised as one of the best perimeter defenders in he game.

Oladipo is a good defensive player, but he has yet to make an all defensive team or earn the type of defensive reputation that Bradley had by that point in his career.


Overall-

All things considered, it's pretty hard to argue that Oladipo is significantly (if any) better right now than Bradley was at the same point in his career. 

Like Bradley Oladipo is a guy who shows solid, but not sky-high potential.  He's shown pretty limited development up to this point, and is not really a massively different player now than he was in his rookie year - there haven't been any real signs to indicate he's going to take that next step.

The way I see it, trading Bradley for Oladipo would be very much a sideways move - if anything Oladipo's shooting limitations would probably hurt us more than Bradley's average ball handling/  passing skills, since we have a dramatic lack of quality shooters on this team but a reasonable numners of capable passers / ball handlers.

So trading Bradey for Oladipo just doesn't really make a lot of sense. 

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2015, 08:04:25 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Oladipo has always seemed more kemba Walker than Dwayne Wade to me. 

Though it's weird to say that, because Kemba (who traditionally shoots 38% and 30% from three) is balling 14 games into the season (46% shooting and 40% from three).  Still, Oladipo is inefficient and with the way guys like Fournier are playing, a lineup of PG - Elfrid, SG - Fournier, SF - Harris, PF - Gordon, C - Vucevic makes the most sense imo... with Mario and Oladipo bringing energy off the bench.

Interesting they are starting Frye tonight...  Maybe they don't like the idea of playing Gordon at PF... but he seems to clearly be a future starter.  He's been their best player in multiple games this season.   

I think Gordon is just too skinny, to be honest.  He really doesn't have the strength to defend stronger NBA Power Forwards (he makes Amir Johnson look strong).

Combine that with his horrible outside shooting (career 26.1% from three) and woeful defense (-0.47 DRPM, ranked 89th among NBA PF's) it's probably very hard to justify keeping him on the court.

Frye has always been a quality three point shooter (38.7% for his career, 42.4% this season) and has statistically been a far superior defensive player (+1.98 DRPM, 13th among PFs) this season.

If you look at advanced stats, it's not really hard to see why they would start Frye over Gordon.  The only justification for giving Gordon more minutes would be for pure developmental reasons.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 08:15:42 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2015, 08:22:27 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Orlando wouldn't take that deal, anyhow.  Bradley is a lesser version of Oladipo without the potential for improvement, Rozier may or may not be an NBA player, and the picks we'd offer would probably be mid-1sts.

That's really quite debatable.

Oladipo is 23 years old and is in his third NBA season.  Bradley at the age of 23 was in his 4th NBA season, but I think it's fair to compare stats to the point since Bradley barely saw playing time in his rookie year (due to a combination of his injury and the level of talent on the team).

So, lets compare Oladipo's career stats so far, against Bradley's stats up to (and including) the 2013/14 season - where he was 23 years old.
 

Scoring output

Oladipo is 23 years old and has averaged 16.9 Point Per 36 so far for his career. 

Bradley was averaging career scoring numbers of 14.1 Points Per 36 by the end of the 2013/14 season. 

Oladipo has definately scored more points on a Per minute bases, if you factor in the dramatic difference in their scenarios (Bradley playing behind three HOF in Boston, versus Oladipo plying big minutes on a lottery team) Oladipo obviously has had more offensive opportunity.

All things considered, I'd say they are about on par.
 

Shooting Percentages

Oladipo has shot 42.3% from the field, 32.6% from three and 79.8% from the line so far for his career.

Bradley was averaging career percentages of 43.8% from the field, 36.6% from three and 78% from the line by the end of the 2013/14 season.

The thee point shooting clearly puts things in Bradley's favor here.


Finishing around the basket

So far in his career Oladipo has taken 30.3% of his shots inside three feet, and he has shot 55.7% on those shots.

By the end of the 13/14 season Bradley had taken 27% of his shots inside three feet, and he shot 58.8% on those shots.

Bradley actually finished better around the basket than Oladipo. 


Point Guard Skills

Over his career so far, Oladipo has averaged 4.1 APG and 2.9 TPG, for a career average of 1.41 Assists Per turnover.

Up until the end of the 13/14 season, Bradley averaged 1.4 APG and  1.2 TPG, for a career average (at the time) of 1.16 Assists Per Turnover.

Oladipo has been a better playmaker, but not by much. 


Defense 

By the end of the 2013/14 season Avery Bradley had already made an All Defensive team and was widely recognised as one of the best perimeter defenders in he game.

Oladipo is a good defensive player, but he has yet to make an all defensive team or earn the type of defensive reputation that Bradley had by that point in his career.


Overall-

All things considered, it's pretty hard to argue that Oladipo is significantly (if any) better right now than Bradley was at the same point in his career. 

Like Bradley Oladipo is a guy who shows solid, but not sky-high potential.  He's shown pretty limited development up to this point, and is not really a massively different player now than he was in his rookie year - there haven't been any real signs to indicate he's going to take that next step.

The way I see it, trading Bradley for Oladipo would be very much a sideways move - if anything Oladipo's shooting limitations would probably hurt us more than Bradley's average ball handling/  passing skills, since we have a dramatic lack of quality shooters on this team but a reasonable numners of capable passers / ball handlers.

So trading Bradey for Oladipo just doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Who was healthier and actually on the court to do all those things? Who drew more defensive attention?

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2015, 08:45:03 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Orlando wouldn't take that deal, anyhow.  Bradley is a lesser version of Oladipo without the potential for improvement, Rozier may or may not be an NBA player, and the picks we'd offer would probably be mid-1sts.

That's really quite debatable.

Oladipo is 23 years old and is in his third NBA season.  Bradley at the age of 23 was in his 4th NBA season, but I think it's fair to compare stats to the point since Bradley barely saw playing time in his rookie year (due to a combination of his injury and the level of talent on the team).

So, lets compare Oladipo's career stats so far, against Bradley's stats up to (and including) the 2013/14 season - where he was 23 years old.
 

Scoring output

Oladipo is 23 years old and has averaged 16.9 Point Per 36 so far for his career. 

Bradley was averaging career scoring numbers of 14.1 Points Per 36 by the end of the 2013/14 season. 

Oladipo has definately scored more points on a Per minute bases, if you factor in the dramatic difference in their scenarios (Bradley playing behind three HOF in Boston, versus Oladipo plying big minutes on a lottery team) Oladipo obviously has had more offensive opportunity.

All things considered, I'd say they are about on par.
 

Shooting Percentages

Oladipo has shot 42.3% from the field, 32.6% from three and 79.8% from the line so far for his career.

Bradley was averaging career percentages of 43.8% from the field, 36.6% from three and 78% from the line by the end of the 2013/14 season.

The thee point shooting clearly puts things in Bradley's favor here.


Finishing around the basket

So far in his career Oladipo has taken 30.3% of his shots inside three feet, and he has shot 55.7% on those shots.

By the end of the 13/14 season Bradley had taken 27% of his shots inside three feet, and he shot 58.8% on those shots.

Bradley actually finished better around the basket than Oladipo. 


Point Guard Skills

Over his career so far, Oladipo has averaged 4.1 APG and 2.9 TPG, for a career average of 1.41 Assists Per turnover.

Up until the end of the 13/14 season, Bradley averaged 1.4 APG and  1.2 TPG, for a career average (at the time) of 1.16 Assists Per Turnover.

Oladipo has been a better playmaker, but not by much. 


Defense 

By the end of the 2013/14 season Avery Bradley had already made an All Defensive team and was widely recognised as one of the best perimeter defenders in he game.

Oladipo is a good defensive player, but he has yet to make an all defensive team or earn the type of defensive reputation that Bradley had by that point in his career.


Overall-

All things considered, it's pretty hard to argue that Oladipo is significantly (if any) better right now than Bradley was at the same point in his career. 

Like Bradley Oladipo is a guy who shows solid, but not sky-high potential.  He's shown pretty limited development up to this point, and is not really a massively different player now than he was in his rookie year - there haven't been any real signs to indicate he's going to take that next step.

The way I see it, trading Bradley for Oladipo would be very much a sideways move - if anything Oladipo's shooting limitations would probably hurt us more than Bradley's average ball handling/  passing skills, since we have a dramatic lack of quality shooters on this team but a reasonable numners of capable passers / ball handlers.

So trading Bradey for Oladipo just doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Who was healthier and actually on the court to do all those things? Who drew more defensive attention?

Health is irrelevant - Bradley has been pretty healthy for two straight seasons now, which suggests his early career injuries issues are behind him.  They are no longer especially relelvant in determining their future  potential / value.

As for drawing the defenses attention - also not really relevant.  Bradley was in a very different scenario.  He never had to draw the defenses attention, because the team had other guys who were responsible for that. 

Since the big three left and Bradley has had a bigger role in the offense he's been scoring at a rate on par with Oladipo, and if you watch him play he rarely gets open looks - many of his shots are either contested or off the dribble.  He may not draw double teams the way superstars do, but he gets more than his share of attention from the defense when he is on the court. 

Oladipo is a nice player, not denying that.  Avery Bradley is also a nice player.  Neither is likely to ever be a legit star.  Both ultimately have about the same upside - that of a good two-way starter.

Not much point in trading one for the other, really.  They are similar caliber players.

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2015, 08:56:29 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Orlando wouldn't take that deal, anyhow.  Bradley is a lesser version of Oladipo without the potential for improvement, Rozier may or may not be an NBA player, and the picks we'd offer would probably be mid-1sts.

That's really quite debatable.

Oladipo is 23 years old and is in his third NBA season.  Bradley at the age of 23 was in his 4th NBA season, but I think it's fair to compare stats to the point since Bradley barely saw playing time in his rookie year (due to a combination of his injury and the level of talent on the team).

So, lets compare Oladipo's career stats so far, against Bradley's stats up to (and including) the 2013/14 season - where he was 23 years old.
 

Scoring output

Oladipo is 23 years old and has averaged 16.9 Point Per 36 so far for his career. 

Bradley was averaging career scoring numbers of 14.1 Points Per 36 by the end of the 2013/14 season. 

Oladipo has definately scored more points on a Per minute bases, if you factor in the dramatic difference in their scenarios (Bradley playing behind three HOF in Boston, versus Oladipo plying big minutes on a lottery team) Oladipo obviously has had more offensive opportunity.

All things considered, I'd say they are about on par.
 

Shooting Percentages

Oladipo has shot 42.3% from the field, 32.6% from three and 79.8% from the line so far for his career.

Bradley was averaging career percentages of 43.8% from the field, 36.6% from three and 78% from the line by the end of the 2013/14 season.

The thee point shooting clearly puts things in Bradley's favor here.


Finishing around the basket

So far in his career Oladipo has taken 30.3% of his shots inside three feet, and he has shot 55.7% on those shots.

By the end of the 13/14 season Bradley had taken 27% of his shots inside three feet, and he shot 58.8% on those shots.

Bradley actually finished better around the basket than Oladipo. 


Point Guard Skills

Over his career so far, Oladipo has averaged 4.1 APG and 2.9 TPG, for a career average of 1.41 Assists Per turnover.

Up until the end of the 13/14 season, Bradley averaged 1.4 APG and  1.2 TPG, for a career average (at the time) of 1.16 Assists Per Turnover.

Oladipo has been a better playmaker, but not by much. 


Defense 

By the end of the 2013/14 season Avery Bradley had already made an All Defensive team and was widely recognised as one of the best perimeter defenders in he game.

Oladipo is a good defensive player, but he has yet to make an all defensive team or earn the type of defensive reputation that Bradley had by that point in his career.


Overall-

All things considered, it's pretty hard to argue that Oladipo is significantly (if any) better right now than Bradley was at the same point in his career. 

Like Bradley Oladipo is a guy who shows solid, but not sky-high potential.  He's shown pretty limited development up to this point, and is not really a massively different player now than he was in his rookie year - there haven't been any real signs to indicate he's going to take that next step.

The way I see it, trading Bradley for Oladipo would be very much a sideways move - if anything Oladipo's shooting limitations would probably hurt us more than Bradley's average ball handling/  passing skills, since we have a dramatic lack of quality shooters on this team but a reasonable numners of capable passers / ball handlers.

So trading Bradey for Oladipo just doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Who was healthier and actually on the court to do all those things? Who drew more defensive attention?

Health is irrelevant - Bradley has been pretty healthy for two straight seasons now, which suggests his early career injuries issues are behind him.  They are no longer especially relelvant in determining their future  potential / value.

As for drawing the defenses attention - also not really relevant.  Bradley was in a very different scenario.  He never had to draw the defenses attention, because the team had other guys who were responsible for that. 

Since the big three left and Bradley has had a bigger role in the offense he's been scoring at a rate on par with Oladipo, and if you watch him play he rarely gets open looks - many of his shots are either contested or off the dribble.  He may not draw double teams the way superstars do, but he gets more than his share of attention from the defense when he is on the court. 

Oladipo is a nice player, not denying that.  Avery Bradley is also a nice player.  Neither is likely to ever be a legit star.  Both ultimately have about the same upside - that of a good two-way starter.

Not much point in trading one for the other, really.  They are similar caliber players.
Ok, so you are saying if you trade them straight up at any point in their careers neither team gets better or worse?

Ok, I'll agree to disagree on all points

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2015, 05:40:44 AM »

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I think Oladipo's main problem is that he tries to do too much. He will be a much more successful player when (if) he learns to concentrate on defense and doing the little things while being a 3rd/4th scoring option on the floor ... instead of trying to be a #1 or #2 guy.

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2015, 07:46:05 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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He is similar to Smart ......better offense , less Defense ......but I like his game .....And I agree Oladipo would be better that the two spot.


Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2015, 10:06:31 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Skiles should be putting those players in the best position to win games, which isn't necessarily going to be the same as putting them in the best position to maximize their individual numbers.

I agree that it's important for that team to start learning how to win.  More important than individual numbers.  But the issue with Skiles seems to be that he's not very good at getting the wins in the present while also keeping in mind a blueprint for the future.

Hiring Skiles to teach your guys to play quality defense and give 100% effort is a good idea, in theory.  But if it's not done in a way that helps you get a better sense of how your young pieces could succeed together, it's not worth much.

The Magic aren't really learning anything about how they're going to find success in the future by keeping Hezonja and Gordon nailed to the bench, and using Oladipo as a sixth man, while giving minutes to CJ Watson, Channing Frye, Andrew Nicholson, and Jason Smith.

A good development coach designs his game plan to maximize the strengths of those core pieces playing on the floor together.  A short sighted coach decides they're not ready and benches them in favor of more traditional veterans with established skillsets.

That seems like hyperbole to me.  I think the criticisms of Skiles are based more in reputation than on reality.

Gordon's played in every game and averaging 20 MPG.  That hardly qualifies as "nailed to the bench."  Oladipo may have been shuffled to a sixth man role for a game--maybe more--but, he's still averaging 32 MPG.

Sure, CJ Watson, Channing Frye, Andrew Nicholson (ok, that one's a head scratcher--but reports are that he's finally turning into an NBA player), and Jason Smith are getting minutes, but they are all getting significantly less minutes than the team's talented youngsters. 

Watson's getting almost 20 a game, but that guy's been considered one of the best backup PGs in the league for a long time now. I don't hate CJ getting legitimate minutes as Elfrid's backup and mentor. 

The team is currently a game below .500.  It seems like things are going fine in Orlando.  Their goal should be to get to at least 35 wins.  It looks to me, just based on the numbers, that Skiles is doing a nice job managing minutes on that team while trying to win. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2015, 10:13:46 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Isn't Oladipo the same as AB with better handles but worse jump shot. And we need more shooting not less. No thanks

Bigger, more athletic, far better dribbler, driver, and playmaker.  You know how we talk about how Avery doesn't have enough in his game when his jumper isn't falling?  Oladipo has all the things Avery is missing.  So long as his jumper comes along, he'll be a really excellent player. 

Put him on a team with better shooting around him and I suspect his jumper wouldn't seem so bad.  It's tough playing Oladipo next to a total non-shooter like Payton.
So he is an inch taller

6'4'' 210 lbs versus 6'2'' 180 lbs
and olidapo has a 6'9.25" wing span to bradley's 6'7.25" wingspan.

but then again, given their relative positions in the draft, bradley looks to have pretty good value. neither are chopped liver.
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Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2015, 10:09:44 PM »

Offline viulo

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The main thing with Oladipo coming off the bench is that Hezonja isn't playing at all - 4:55 tonight in the blowout win against Bucks (the last 4:55, all garbage time) and 42 seconds on wednesday against the Knicks. Go after him now! Offer the house if you have to.

Re: Oladipo benched.
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2015, 10:24:24 PM »

Offline Eja117

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The main thing with Oladipo coming off the bench is that Hezonja isn't playing at all - 4:55 tonight in the blowout win against Bucks (the last 4:55, all garbage time) and 42 seconds on wednesday against the Knicks. Go after him now! Offer the house if you have to.
I would offer a Suburu Forrester but certainly not a house.