Lowe article on Wolves rebuild

[wiley]

It's probably a good article but hasn't the idea of having vets to mentor
the younger players been around as long as peach cobbler?

[Moranis]

Having vets around isn't novel and it isn't always necessary.  Some players are "winners" and some players are "losers".  The winners don't need mentoring (though it might help them reach their potential faster) and while the mentoring might mask some of the losers qualities, it won't change their course.  Either they have it or they don't.

Who were the veteran mentors for KD, Westbrook, Harden, etc. in Seattle/OKC?  Who was the mentor for Lebron's first stint with the Cavs ?  Who was Jordan and Pippen's veteran mentor?

Winning players will eventually play like winners.  Losing players will consistently play like losers.  No amount of mentoring will change that.  What veteran mentors can do is help the winners reach their potential faster and can also help the team win faster by you know actually being useful players, but they certainly aren't necessary if you have the right players. 

[fairweatherfan]

It's probably a good article but hasn't the idea of having vets to mentor
the younger players been around as long as peach cobbler?

Philly's more of a Dippin Dots franchise then.

[Lucky17]

It's probably a good article but hasn't the idea of having vets to mentor
the younger players been around as long as peach cobbler?

Yes, but -- as the article stated -- having three veterans in such twilight of their careers taking up roster spots was what (theoretically) critics found problematic.

There are veteran players, and there are really, really old players.

[celticsclay]

Having vets around isn't novel and it isn't always necessary.  Some players are "winners" and some players are "losers".  The winners don't need mentoring (though it might help them reach their potential faster) and while the mentoring might mask some of the losers qualities, it won't change their course.  Either they have it or they don't.

Who were the veteran mentors for KD, Westbrook, Harden, etc. in Seattle/OKC?  Who was the mentor for Lebron's first stint with the Cavs ?  Who was Jordan and Pippen's veteran mentor?

Winning players will eventually play like winners.  Losing players will consistently play like losers.  No amount of mentoring will change that.  What veteran mentors can do is help the winners reach their potential faster and can also help the team win faster by you know actually being useful players, but they certainly aren't necessary if you have the right players.

All of those teams did have some veterans that had established NBA career, but I am not gonna waste my time researching them because you just blindly defend anything that could be slightly construed as slightly negative towards Philly.

I mean and just for the sake of showing you lazy you are being James rookie team, while not exactly overflowing with veterans did include Kevin Ollie (who if I not mistaken Durant also later credited with having a big impact on his career with his professionalism as a player), Tony Battie (another guy that made a long career as being a veteran presence), Ilgauskas and even old friend Eric Williams.

[Big333223]

My guess is we're going to start seeing Lowe more regularly now. Hopefully he'll be his same old self, just in a different font.

[BDeCosta26]

I remember one of the guys they got in the Sacto salary dump (Thompson I think) was like "yeah, I'm actually excited to be a guiding veteran presence for these talented young guys" and then he was promptly bought out.

Though they did have Jason Richardson for a couple games last year

[celticsclay]

I remember one of the guys they got in the Sacto salary dump (Thompson I think) was like "yeah, I'm actually excited to be a guiding veteran presence for these talented young guys" and then he was promptly bought out.

Though they did have Jason Richardson for a couple games last year

Jason Richardson was trying to rehab his career and get one more contract (unsuccessfully) and played something like 50 games in 3 years. The veteran they brought in and cut was McGhee.

[MBunge]

Who were the veteran mentors for KD, Westbrook, Harden, etc. in Seattle/OKC? 

Durant as a rookie had for at least part of the season Adrian Griffin (8 years), Donyell Marshall (13 years), Ira Newbill (7 years), Wally Z (8 years), Kurt Thomas (12 years) and Earl Watson (6 years).

Westbrook had for at least parts of the season Watson (7 years), Chucky Atkins (9 years), Desmond Mason (8 years), Malik Rose (12 years), Joe Smith (13 years) and Chris Wilcox (6 years).

Harden had for at least part of the season Ryan Bowen (9 years), Kevin Ollie (12 years), Etan Thomas (7 years) and Mike Wilks (6 years).

Philly has ONE guy on the current roster with 8 years of experience and no one else has more than 3.

I continue to be fascinated by how Philly supporters are now consumed with arguing that they really aren't doing anything different than anyone else.

Mike

[celticsclay]

Who were the veteran mentors for KD, Westbrook, Harden, etc. in Seattle/OKC? 

Durant as a rookie had for at least part of the season Adrian Griffin (8 years), Donyell Marshall (13 years), Ira Newbill (7 years), Wally Z (8 years), Kurt Thomas (12 years) and Earl Watson (6 years).

Westbrook had for at least parts of the season Watson (7 years), Chucky Atkins (9 years), Desmond Mason (8 years), Malik Rose (12 years), Joe Smith (13 years) and Chris Wilcox (6 years).

Harden had for at least part of the season Ryan Bowen (9 years), Kevin Ollie (12 years), Etan Thomas (7 years) and Mike Wilks (6 years).

Philly has ONE guy on the current roster with 8 years of experience and no one else has more than 3.

I continue to be fascinated by how Philly supporters are now consumed with arguing that they really aren't doing anything different than anyone else.

Mike

Got to agree with you Mike and it is so superflous stuff that now gets argued. I can see someone disagreeing if I said the 76ers had no directions, or called Noel and Okafor busts. However, these apparent Celtics fan have gotten to the point of arguing ridiculous stuff like Philly has good role players or have as many vets as other rebuilding teams which are just non starters.

[LarBrd33]

Who were the veteran mentors for KD, Westbrook, Harden, etc. in Seattle/OKC? 

Durant as a rookie had for at least part of the season Adrian Griffin (8 years), Donyell Marshall (13 years), Ira Newbill (7 years), Wally Z (8 years), Kurt Thomas (12 years) and Earl Watson (6 years).

Westbrook had for at least parts of the season Watson (7 years), Chucky Atkins (9 years), Desmond Mason (8 years), Malik Rose (12 years), Joe Smith (13 years) and Chris Wilcox (6 years).

Harden had for at least part of the season Ryan Bowen (9 years), Kevin Ollie (12 years), Etan Thomas (7 years) and Mike Wilks (6 years).

Philly has ONE guy on the current roster with 8 years of experience and no one else has more than 3.

I continue to be fascinated by how Philly supporters are now consumed with arguing that they really aren't doing anything different than anyone else.

Mike

Is there anyone (Philly "Supporters" or non-supporters) who thinks they aren't doing things differently?  There's nothing conventional about the way Hinkie is running that team.  I'm probably labelled a Philly "supporter" more than anyone on this forum.   I just find them to be a fascinating team.  I've given my reasons.  In short, Hinkie runs that team like most people run franchise mode in video games... trade everyone for draft picks and youth, shoot for a superstar or bust.  It's interesting in the same way Donald Trump running his campaign like a cracked out version of the movie "Bullworth" is interesting.  It's not like I'm rooting for either.  I'm just curious to see what happens.   The only Philly game I've seen this season was the one they played against the Celtics.  Okafor looked good.  I was mildly jealous.

Learning that the team was lying about Embiid's health and maybe/maybe not covering up a re-injury was a blow.  Saric still hasn't come over.  The team is playing horribly... but there's still a chance it works out for them.  Talent can win out.  I agree that KD and LeBron probably had a few vets on the team when they entered the league.  Maybe the lack of the Desmond Masons and Mike Wilks will stunt the development of Philly's players.  Or maybe the "throw them into the fire, invest all the coaching energy into developing players, and let them learn from their mistakes on the job" will eventually pay off.   I get the tone of Lowe's article and can't disagree with it... but are we really going to pretend like Karl Anthony-Towns wouldn't be averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks with 50% shooting and 90% from the line 10 games into his rookie season if not for Kevin Garnett being on that roster?   Are we really going to say Philly "failed their plan" when their plan is still fluid and ongoing?   Did LeBron make the jump from averaging 20, 6, and 6 with 42%/29 shooting as a rookie (35 wins) to 31, 7 and 7 with 48%/35% in year 3 (50 wins) mainly because he spent his rookie year playing with 31 year old Kevin Ollie and 31 year old Eric Williams..... or was it just a natural progression of his game that lead to his statistical improvement and the team's increased success? 

Anthony Davis spent his rookie season with Hakim Warrick, Roger Mason and Lou Amundson as the only teammates over the age of 30... are they responsible for his leap into superstardom?  Is anyone going to be stunned if Okafor makes a statistical leap without a Roger Mason to guide him?  With the kind of talent Philly has under contract and the picks still owed to them, I'm still not throwing in the towel on a possible beast of a team in a few years.   

That said, it certainly can't hurt the Wolves to have vets guiding the way.  If you look at NBA players as computer-generated videogame characters, they all usually have a current star rating and a potential star rating.  They might come into the league at 2.5 stars with a 4 star potential.  Sometimes you have a Darius Miles who comes into the league with a 4.5 star potential and never comes close to reaching it.   And sometimes you have a Rajon Rondo who comes into the league with a 3 star potential, but vastly exceeds it peaking at 4 stars.  I tend to think that having Doc Rivers (former star PG) as a coach, Danny Ainge (former star PG) as a GM,  Sam Cassell (former star PG) on his team in year 2, Stephon Marbury (former star PG) on his team in year 3... not to mention Paul Pierce, KG and Ray Allen as mentors... did a lot to help Rondo exceed his potential.   Having KG, Prince and Miller as mentors on the Wolves sure can't hurt. 

You look at someone like Eddie Curry and wonder what might have happened in his career had he had some vets to mentor him as a rookie.  I mean, he had a 38 year old Charles Oakley on his team as a rookie... so maybe that's a bad example.  Maybe not.  On the flip side, you got your Darko Milicic's (played his rookie season on a championship team filled with veterans) and your Kwame Browns (played his rookie season with Michael freakin Jordan)... Could it be argued they would have stood a better chance with 35+ minutes a night on a low-pressure Hinkie team?    We don't know.   It's looking grim in Philly right now, but we aren't going to know if they failed for a few years.

[Moranis]

I'm confused.  My statement had nothing to do with Philly, yet every comment has to do with that.  Seems people are really hung up on Philly on this board bringing them into conversations that have nothing to do with them. 

After all this is a thread about the Wolves and their use of veteran mentors.  If you guys really think those players were mentors for KD, James, etc. I have a bridge to sell you.  KD, James, etc. received almost no benefit from guys that were barely playing and were nothing like the skill set of them. 

Someday if Towns lives up to his potential it won't be because he got to play with KG his rookie year.  It will be because he is the type of player that has the drive and talent to be that good.  No amount of harassment from KG is going to make him that type of player if he isn't already one. 

Cousins had Dalembert to guide him as a rookie.  Cousins is still a giant screw ball and head case.  Cousins would be a head case with or without Dalembert, because that is just who he is.  Veterans don't change the makeup of people.

[LooseCannon]

I don't believe in having a single veteran as a mentor for a young player.  I think you need multiple veterans.  I think there is some value in being able to put inexperienced players on the floor where the majority of the guys in your game have a solid understanding of what they are supposed to be doing.  It's hard to learn your role if your teammates don't know their role so you can't see how you are supposed to fit in.

[LarBrd33]

Watching the Wolves right now.  I love watching this team.  Towns and Wiggins are really exciting.  They are my second favorite team right now, I guess.

Behind the Celtics, in case that wasn't clear.  I didn't want to give whatshisdingus the satisfaction of the obvious Philly joke. 

[MBunge]

It's looking grim in Philly right now, but we aren't going to know if they failed for a few years.

Nah, we're going to know quicker than that.  At the end of three solid years of tanking, Philly's going to have Noel, Okafor, Embiid, the rights to Saric and probably no one else capable of being a top 8 rotation player on a great team.  Noel is not a franchise player, Embiid might never play again and Saric is a question mark.

That means after three years of tanking, Philly will basically have Okafor as a centerpiece.  He clearly has elite potential but honestly looks more like a better version of Al Jefferson than he does another Kareem or Olajuwon.  And that means if Philly doesn't get that LeBron/Durant/Bird/Magic franchise player in the next draft, they never will because I don't think even Hinkie can stretch this out another year.

And that will be a failure.  Oh, Philly will still have the young core to become a good team.  Maybe even a great team.  But not the kind of team worth throwing away three years of your basketball life.

And no, LarBrd, you are not just fascinated or intrigued by Philly.

Mike