Author Topic: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?  (Read 19079 times)

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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2015, 01:51:23 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Okafor = like Eddy Curry or a young Al Jefferson ... in their effect on a team. Talented individual scorers but they make life difficult for everyone else around them. Too often take more off the table than they put on it. Their teams tend to do very badly.

Except for you, know, winning a national championship.

Let's not put this all on Okafor like he's suddenly turned into a player with a "loser" mentality.

NBA careers only.

It's not so much his mentality as his skill-set which is too individual / not team orientated enough. It's a lack of appreciation in defense, rebounding and team offense. In ways he can impact games outside of scoring. An immaturity.

He could get around that a lower level of competition like the NCAA. Especially nowadays where there are hardly any talented big men around. Average 10ppg 6rpg and you can go pro as a freshman.

None of this is a surprise, though.  His defense is a work in progress.  He's a young big man without elite physical tools.  Most NBA big men are not Karl Towns; they don't spend one year in college, come into the NBA and immediately help a team on the defensive end.

Okafor showed he could work very well within a team concept at Duke.  Nobody succeeds in that program if they lack appreciation for things other than scoring.

On the Sixers, he's surrounded by teammates who don't have the ability or the experience to provide a structure within which he is likely to thrive.  His point guards are Isaiah Canaan and TJ McConnell, and the perimeter guys are Jerami Grant and Jakarr Sampson.

The worst thing I can say about Jahlil Okafor so far is that he's not good enough as a 19 year old rookie to anchor the defense for a crappy team that can't hold onto the ball, and he's not dominant enough offensively to be the entire offense for a team whose second best scorer right now is ... Nik Stauskas?  Blech.

Still, as a 19 year old rookie he's averaging 20 points per 36 minutes on over 50% True Shooting.  On that Sixers team, that's borderline amazing.  Plus, he's blocking shots, which wasn't something people expected him to do in the NBA.


Anyway, my point in defending Okafor is I think it's asinine to blame him for the Sixers' struggles.  He's not such an amazing prospect that he can save that team alone.  They're not built to succeed with him at center because, well, they're not built to succeed.  A player who gets by on amazing physical prowess like Towns might be able to shine in that situation.  Okafor needs a competent team around him.  Don't confuse that with Okafor not being a really good player.  I'd be thrilled to have Jahlil on the Celts.

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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2015, 01:51:48 PM »

Offline Who

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You put Okafor on the Spurs and I'd bet you anything he'd be awesome.

He'd be the same everywhere in terms of defense & rebounding. Okafor has a slow feet and is bad at reading the game. His movements are too slow / limited. He cannot play transition defense, pick and roll defense, perimeter defense to an adequate level. Okafor can only rebound his own area and he can not box out if his check isn't right beside him because he is too slow. He is limited in how he can explode to the ball. These are all things that are not effected by what team he is. He is just bad at them.

What would change on a different team is improved offense. He is a willing and capable passer out of the low post. He is a very good low post scorer. On team with better spacing and shooting, these qualities would have more of a team-wide benefit in terms of ball movement and creating open shots for others + as well as Okafor's individual efficiency. This is where Okafor would see a good improvement in impact.

Unfortunately, his defense and rebounding would be still be so bad that he would have negligible impact on games despite his offensive talents.

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2015, 01:54:06 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Unfortunately, his defense and rebounding would be still be so bad that he would have negligible impact on games despite his offensive talents.

All of which again, is not concerning to me because he's a 19 year old rookie big man, and typically those guys don't help teams defensively.

You're painting him as a guy who's doomed to hurt teams more than he helps them for his career, as if he has no room to grow.

Comparing him to Eddy Curry is a joke.  A bad one.
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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2015, 01:54:19 PM »

Offline Who

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Quickness, mobility and explosive athleticism = best physical markers for the difference between a good big man prospect and a great big man prospect.

Okafor is not a great big man prospect.

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2015, 01:56:34 PM »

Offline Who

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Philadelphia should not be sacrificing a prospect like Nerlens Noel for Jahill Okafor. Nerlens Noel has incredible defensive quickness. One of the quickest defensive big men ever. The range of things he can do at a very high level defensively is extraordinary. He has the mentality of a Champion rooted in high effort high focus, understanding the value of team defense and rebounding, and how to make his teammates better through these areas. He has innate leadership. This is exactly the type of young man you build around. Not Okafor.

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2015, 01:56:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Unfortunately, his defense and rebounding would be still be so bad that he would have negligible impact on games despite his offensive talents.

All of which again, is not concerning to me because he's a 19 year old rookie big man, and typically those guys don't help teams defensively.

You're painting him as a guy who's doomed to hurt teams more than he helps them for his career, as if he has no room to grow.

Comparing him to Eddy Curry is a joke.  A bad one.

Isn't Eddy Curry a world champion from his time with the Heat? That guy is a winner!

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2015, 02:00:49 PM »

Offline Who

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Unfortunately, his defense and rebounding would be still be so bad that he would have negligible impact on games despite his offensive talents.

All of which again, is not concerning to me because he's a 19 year old rookie big man, and typically those guys don't help teams defensively.

You're painting him as a guy who's doomed to hurt teams more than he helps them for his career, as if he has no room to grow.

Comparing him to Eddy Curry is a joke.  A bad one.

This is not what I am saying. I am saying that Okafor's ceiling isn't as high as many believe it to be. He isn't the trans formative center people want him to be. He has a mature physique and a mature low post skill set but clear limitations in terms of his all-round game. He is a player with All-Star potential but not much beyond that.

Okafor's current performance is comparable to Eddy Curry's performance. Dreadful defense, very poor rebounding, very good low post scoring but turnover prone. Curry more efficient than Okafor was with FG%. Okafor a better and more willing passer.

Okafor's future peak performance I believe to be more comparable to what Al Jefferson has achieved in Charlotte and Utah. A good individual player with extreme strengths / weaknesses who doesn't make his teammates better. And is the type of center you do not typically see on top teams / Championship caliber teams.

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2015, 02:09:07 PM »

Offline Who

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Okafor's future peak performance I believe to be more comparable to what Al Jefferson has achieved in Charlotte and Utah. A good individual player with extreme strengths / weaknesses who doesn't make his teammates better. And is the type of center you do not typically see on top teams / Championship caliber teams.

In contrast to Noel = Noel's skill-set in terms of high level defense & rebounding, ability to make his teammates better, character and leadership potential .... all are characteristics seen much more frequently in centers on top teams & Championship winning teams.

Noel also has All-Star potential (like Okafor) but his characteristics are much more favourable in terms of building winning basketball teams and winning Championship (unlike Okafor) ... and thus should be the big man who Philadelphia choose to build around and whose development should be prioritized.

Philadelphia should trade Okafor and build around Noel.

Choosing to build around Okafor and trading Noel (at some point) will only make their rebuild harder and longer ... and make things more difficult for Philly to get back to challenging for an NBA Championship.

That is my belief = On Philadelphia. On Noel. On Okafor. On what winning basketball is. On what is important in terms of how a center effects winning basketball. Noel has IT. Key qualities / characteristics. Okafor doesn't. Okafor is a talented individual player but not as special as Nerlens Noel who to me has clear Champion qualities.

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2015, 02:12:49 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I've said before, I think the Big Al comparison gets made too often with big men who are heavy on post scoring and struggle defensively.

To me, he seems more like an amalgam of traits I've seen in big men like Pau Gasol and Brook Lopez.  Those seem like better comps, too, because those guys, like Jahlil are around seven feet tall.  Jahlil is not an undersized center, unlike Big Al.

Demarcus Cousins was talked about in much the same way, earlier in his career.  Jahlil doesn't have the same physical tools Cousins does, but I think he'll improve on the defensive end, as Cousins (and Big Al, and Pau) did.

Unless, of course, spending his formative years on the Sixers torpedoes his development, as many posters have argued will happen to prospects on the Sixers.

If we revisit this in a couple years and Jahlil has kept on a track to become Enes Kanter 2.0, then I'll be on board with what you're saying.  I don't think we're there yet.

Certainly in today's league, it's harder to accommodate big men with Jahlil's skillset (as opposed to a player like Towns, or even Noel).  Plenty of teams have had success, modest and great, with big men like that, though, and I think they still can.
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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2015, 02:15:15 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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In contrast to Noel = Noel's skill-set in terms of high level defense & rebounding, ability to make his teammates better, character and leadership potential .... all are characteristics seen much more frequently in centers on top teams & Championship winning teams.


Kendrick Perkins, Andrew Bogut, Tyson Chandler ... these are championship centers.


They're also not players you can build a team around.


In Noel, I see a defensive role player.  A very good one, mind you, but a defensive role player nonetheless. 

I don't see "IT" with Noel as you do.  He's a nice player, but nothing I've seen from him says "this is a guy who will carry teams to big wins."  Okafor has looked special to me from early last year at Duke and on.  Talent and skill at his size just don't come along that often.  And I refuse to engage in the lazy exercise of painting every post center with defensive question marks who comes into the league today as another Al Jefferson.

In another life, I think Big Al and Brook Lopez could both have been major pieces on very good teams.  Not as the leader of the team, but as one of the main pieces.  I don't think either of them ever found the right situation.  Pau Gasol on the other hand, was lucky enough to play with Kobe in his prime, and his career was vindicated.


I'm very interested to see what happens with Greg Monroe in Milwaukee -- another player who doesn't have the "championship qualities" you mention.  With Jabari, Giannis, and Monroe, they've got the nucleus of a very good team.  I'd love to see them become one of the very best in the East for a while and shatter the notion that a team can't succeed with a guy like that at center.  Because I think it's nonsense. 

You can't build an offense anymore around dumping it into the post for your center to go to work 20+ times a game.  That doesn't mean having a high-IQ post scorer with good touch and passing can't be a huge asset for a top shelf team.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 02:22:43 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2015, 02:31:16 PM »

Offline konkmv

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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2015, 02:35:18 PM »

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In contrast to Noel = Noel's skill-set in terms of high level defense & rebounding, ability to make his teammates better, character and leadership potential .... all are characteristics seen much more frequently in centers on top teams & Championship winning teams.


Kendrick Perkins, Andrew Bogut, Tyson Chandler ... these are championship centers.


They're also not players you can build a team around.

I don't think Perkins or an old Bogut are good comparisons to Noel. Neither player has the type of defensive quickness to impact and dominate a game the way Noel can.

I do think Tyson Chandler is a good comparison. Those two share a lot of similar qualities and I think it is a flattering comparison for Noel.

A Championship winning player. A key figure in the title winning side. I consider Tyson the 2nd most important player on that team. A player who has had a big impact on improving teams and playing winning basketball everywhere he went. I think this is a good comparison for Noel. And like Noel, even as a rookie, as a teenager you could see the same leadership qualities in Tyson Chandler. Every time Tyson stepped on the floor you could see the effort level and focus increase for everyone around him. His energy and effort inspired others. The strong believes in defense and rebounding. The foundation was always there. He was a winner (winning mentality and style of play) from Day One in the NBA. Like Noel was and is.

Others could be Ben Wallace. Dikembe Mutombo. Nate Thurmond.

To the Holy Grail of Bill Russell.

Players with similar styles of play and characteristics. Obviously with different levels of ability & understanding (Russell one of B'ball's gods) to go along with those traits.



Nerlens Noel as a young player shares those characteristics as a player. He can be a Championship winning center like Tyson Chandler or a Ben Wallace. He can be one of the great winners of his generation. He is a special player who with continued hard work can achieve great things in this league.



I've said before, I think the Big Al comparison gets made too often with big men who are heavy on post scoring and struggle defensively.

To me, he seems more like an amalgam of traits I've seen in big men like Pau Gasol and Brook Lopez.  Those seem like better comps, too, because those guys, like Jahlil are around seven feet tall.  Jahlil is not an undersized center, unlike Big Al.

Demarcus Cousins was talked about in much the same way, earlier in his career.  Jahlil doesn't have the same physical tools Cousins does, but I think he'll improve on the defensive end, as Cousins (and Big Al, and Pau) did.

I don't think Pau Gasol is a good comparison. Pau had much more quickness and mobility as a young player and at his peak than J.Okafor has. Cousins also has much better lateral quickness, end-to-end quickness and agility than Okafor. That separates them.

I think Brook Lopez is a good comparison. I would say that B.Lopez has vacillated between Eddy Curry level performance and Al Jefferson level impact during his career. I considered Big Al a more flattering comparison for J.Okafor because Big Al has had more sustained success in the NBA than B.Lopez has had (due to Brook's injuries and inconsistent effort levels).


I'm very interested to see what happens with Greg Monroe in Milwaukee -- another player who doesn't have the "championship qualities" you mention.  With Jabari, Giannis, and Monroe, they've got the nucleus of a very good team.  I'd love to see them become one of the very best in the East for a while and shatter the notion that a team can't succeed with a guy like that at center.  Because I think it's nonsense. 

Monroe also has much more quickness and mobility than Okafor ... which helps give Monroe mpre capacity / potential as a team defender and rebounder.

I do think a team can win a Championship with Monroe. A different type of center than Noel but one who can be a good defender & rebounder with hard work + a good individual scorer and team offensive player. An all-rounder.

I would say Andrew Bogut as a younger player in Milwaukee was more along these lines (more similar to Greg Monroe than a Tyson Chandler). A different athlete. Slower and less mobile than Monroe but bigger and more intimidating around the basket. A player who was more of an all-rounder in terms of his skill-set (similar to Monroe). A plus defender, rebounder and offensive player. Andrew Bogut (like Monroe) also had the qualities of a Championship winning center albeit a different type of Championship winning center than Nerlens Noel.

Unfortunately, injuries zapped Bogut's offensive game. Made him more of a defense-only player than the all-rounder he was earlier in his career.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 02:53:07 PM by Who »

Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2015, 02:50:10 PM »

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In contrast to Noel = Noel's skill-set in terms of high level defense & rebounding, ability to make his teammates better, character and leadership potential .... all are characteristics seen much more frequently in centers on top teams & Championship winning teams.


Kendrick Perkins, Andrew Bogut, Tyson Chandler ... these are championship centers.


They're also not players you can build a team around.


In Noel, I see a defensive role player.  A very good one, mind you, but a defensive role player nonetheless. 

And Okafor is an offensive roleplayer at a position that puts a premium on D.

The rookie Big Al comp looks dead on to me. He's got one inch on Big Al in height and standing reach. They were almost the exact same age coming into the league. They have the same reliance on post games and finesse 2-point finishes, which puts a damper on the overall efficiency of their volume scoring. Both are reluctant and turnover prone passers. They are both slow team defenders with terrible defensive instincts who get blocks out of sheer length but hurt their teams enormously on D overall.

Okafor is a smoother ball-handler and flashes more all-around offensive skill than rookie Al, but Al was a much better garbage man, working the offensive boards much more effectively to get easy points.

And I think Okafor's superior skill-level and pedigree is actually making him a worse player - he's so confident that he frequently just freezes out other teammates to dribble himself into isolation whereas rookie Big Al didn't  hog usage to anywhere near the same degree (different situations, but there's still a clear distinction in approach).

Okafor is putting up an outrageous -27.5 on-off rating. No one else on the team is even close. Probably the most destructive player in the league.
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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2015, 03:22:23 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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And Okafor is an offensive roleplayer at a position that puts a premium on D.

In other words, Enes Kanter.

I think this is a fair description of him right now, and I'm not arguing that he hasn't been bad on the Sixers, but I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that he's sure to be that in the future.

Put him on a good team with quality role players, good coaching, and an actual intent to win, and I think he could be awesome.

Like I said, I'd be thrilled to have him in Boston.  If they're stupid enough to trade him in favor of a seven footer with a career FG% of 45.3% on almost entirely face-up attempts in the paint, then by all means, I say we take advantage.


You don't build around Theo Ratliff.  Or Tyson Chandler, frankly.

I really, truly don't understand the notion that Noel can be "one of the great players of his generation."  He doesn't look like that type of talent to me, at all.  A nice player.  I'd be happy to have him on the Celts, too.  But I'll be surprised if he ever makes an All-Star squad, and I think he'll always be tricky to fit into an offense because of his lack of range and poor finishing ability.

Tyson Chandler has never been a guarantee on his own that a team will be any good, and he's a fantastic finisher inside.  Even greats like Dikembe and Ben Wallace needed multiple great (offensive) players around them to achieve success.  Ben Wallace is probably the best comp because he was a terrible finisher for a paint-bound big man, but will Noel ever reach that incredible level of defense and rebounding?  Unlikely.


Who, if you were talking about Andre Drummond, I would get it.  Completely.  I'd take Drummond over Okafor any day.  But Noel isn't that kind of player in my eyes.  Not close.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 03:28:07 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Is this year's Sixers team the worst NBA squad ever?
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2015, 03:26:08 PM »

Offline colincb

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It's tough to project where Okafor will be defensively 5 years down the road given that he's a rookie. His reactions seem slow though. More troubling is that his ttotal shooting percentage and rebounding percentages are really sub-par. He's 45th in TS% among centers. Outside of Pau Gasol and Seraphim who shoot in the mid-range, Okafor's only ahead of Mahimi, who's a stiff, for guys who get real minutes and play under the basket. Obviously his FT% is bad, but his numbers are pretty disappointing given his facility around the basket and his rebounding sucks (TRB% is 61st among centers!). It's really tough for me to believe how bad his numbers are when you get past the points per whatever.

Noel's not a great rebounder either, but he's passable. His offense is stunted and will continue to be stunted playing PF and not having a decent PG around (why do you need if one if you're developing young talent anyway). It would be best for him to take a qualifying offer and get away to some team that will develop him though I'm skeptical of his ceiling ever being at an all-star level given his offensive woes. He can be elite defensively with a good team.