Author Topic: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?  (Read 59896 times)

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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2015, 04:01:47 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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But if you're a member of the majority -- and this is something I've struggled to learn to do, myself -- I think you need to be willing to be persuaded and respect when somebody tells you a behavior bothers them, especially if that person speaks from a perspective you can't fully understand because of your privilege.

I'm consistently perplexed by the tendency of other white, straight males (like myself) to hear racial/sexual minorities and women describe their experiences and just flatly say, "nope, you're wrong, that's not the way it is".  It's basically telling someone your characterization of their personal experiences trumps their own.  It doesn't mean you'll always be wrong - sometimes an outsider's perspective really is more accurate - but gosh, how do they not realize the odds are sharply against that?

   The odds probably aren't that sharply against it. If you're disagreeing with their experience it's frequently the case that they're describing a situation involving a white, straight male. Why would they have more of an idea of that person's perspective than you would of a minority's perspective?

Because the bolded bit is something you pulled out of thin air and not the quote?  And omitted the second bit where I do mention that scenario and argue that it's the same problem reversed?

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2015, 04:04:23 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Because the bolded bit is something you pulled out of thin air and not the quote?  And omitted the second bit where I do mention that scenario and argue that it's the same problem reversed?
Yes, the odds are so sharp that we pay an entire profession to give us an outside perspective of our problems.

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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2015, 04:11:33 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I often feel that much of what I see derogatorily labeled as "PC Culture" could also be fairly labeled "Don't Be A Jerk" culture.

  It could also be fairly labeled "attack people who don't hold all of your opinions" culture. For instance, there would be plenty of objections if people here made remarks about minorities that took on the tone and tenor of many of the remarks that you see here about conservative, relatively affluent white men. There's no inherent difference between the comments made, but one target's more socially acceptable than the other in the PC culture. There's no differentiation based on whether you're a jerk or not.

If it seems like stuff that didn't used to count as "being a jerk," is being called that now, maybe it's because the people that were hurt or offended by the behavior in the past didn't feel empowered to speak up about it.

  Some of that's the case, much of it is people that are hyper vigilant about comments that could possibly be construed as offensive when no such meaning was meant.

But if you're a member of the majority -- and this is something I've struggled to learn to do, myself -- I think you need to be willing to be persuaded and respect when somebody tells you a behavior bothers them, especially if that person speaks from a perspective you can't fully understand because of your privilege.

  On one hand this is somewhat true, on the other hand there's no end to the number of things that everyone does that nobody at all will object to. Hence the thread title.

Very astute observation. TP.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2015, 04:14:07 PM »

Offline BballTim

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But if you're a member of the majority -- and this is something I've struggled to learn to do, myself -- I think you need to be willing to be persuaded and respect when somebody tells you a behavior bothers them, especially if that person speaks from a perspective you can't fully understand because of your privilege.

I'm consistently perplexed by the tendency of other white, straight males (like myself) to hear racial/sexual minorities and women describe their experiences and just flatly say, "nope, you're wrong, that's not the way it is".  It's basically telling someone your characterization of their personal experiences trumps their own.  It doesn't mean you'll always be wrong - sometimes an outsider's perspective really is more accurate - but gosh, how do they not realize the odds are sharply against that?

   The odds probably aren't that sharply against it. If you're disagreeing with their experience it's frequently the case that they're describing a situation involving a white, straight male. Why would they have more of an idea of that person's perspective than you would of a minority's perspective?

It's pretty easy to tell other people to lighten up.  It's much harder to be told.  The odds are always against knowing what's going on in someone's else head..

  I'm making the assumption that, if a person's describing their experiences and their feelings about it, you'd have an inkling about what's going on in their head.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2015, 04:21:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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But if you're a member of the majority -- and this is something I've struggled to learn to do, myself -- I think you need to be willing to be persuaded and respect when somebody tells you a behavior bothers them, especially if that person speaks from a perspective you can't fully understand because of your privilege.

I'm consistently perplexed by the tendency of other white, straight males (like myself) to hear racial/sexual minorities and women describe their experiences and just flatly say, "nope, you're wrong, that's not the way it is".  It's basically telling someone your characterization of their personal experiences trumps their own.  It doesn't mean you'll always be wrong - sometimes an outsider's perspective really is more accurate - but gosh, how do they not realize the odds are sharply against that?

   The odds probably aren't that sharply against it. If you're disagreeing with their experience it's frequently the case that they're describing a situation involving a white, straight male. Why would they have more of an idea of that person's perspective than you would of a minority's perspective?

Because the bolded bit is something you pulled out of thin air and not the quote?  And omitted the second bit where I do mention that scenario and argue that it's the same problem reversed?

  Sorry, I made the assumption that if you were going to tell someone describing an experience "that's not how it is" that you'd base that comment on having some insight into the situation.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2015, 04:44:07 PM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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I often feel that much of what I see derogatorily labeled as "PC Culture" could also be fairly labeled "Don't Be A Jerk" culture.

  It could also be fairly labeled "attack people who don't hold all of your opinions" culture. For instance, there would be plenty of objections if people here made remarks about minorities that took on the tone and tenor of many of the remarks that you see here about conservative, relatively affluent white men. There's no inherent difference between the comments made, but one target's more socially acceptable than the other in the PC culture. There's no differentiation based on whether you're a jerk or not.

If it seems like stuff that didn't used to count as "being a jerk," is being called that now, maybe it's because the people that were hurt or offended by the behavior in the past didn't feel empowered to speak up about it.

  Some of that's the case, much of it is people that are hyper vigilant about comments that could possibly be construed as offensive when no such meaning was meant.

But if you're a member of the majority -- and this is something I've struggled to learn to do, myself -- I think you need to be willing to be persuaded and respect when somebody tells you a behavior bothers them, especially if that person speaks from a perspective you can't fully understand because of your privilege.

  On one hand this is somewhat true, on the other hand there's no end to the number of things that everyone does that nobody at all will object to. Hence the thread title.

Very astute observation. TP.

Except for the inherent difference of the history of this country, particularly as pertaining to race, class, gender, sexuality, and a myriad of other issues where the assumption of equal ground and equality touted here, and often in these discussions, is no more than a fantasy.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2015, 04:52:16 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Except for the inherent difference of the history of this country, particularly as pertaining to race, class, gender, sexuality, and a myriad of other issues where the assumption of equal ground and equality touted here, and often in these discussions, is no more than a fantasy.
Yup, so the gloves are off when it comes to your run-of-the-mill white male making more than the average, but the hunger-striking kid of an executive with net worth or $8 million or more needs "safe space".

All because of stuff that likely happened before either of the two was born. Sounds legit.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2015, 05:03:39 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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However, there is a line.  Even you would admit there's a line.  This thread is about where that line is.  I think you've gone a little abstract here..
Me, or Pho?

I'm really not all that abstract. The line is mostly written in the law of the land, and the law says that being a jerk is everyone's constitutional right.


Well, in an ethical discussion, the law isn't necessarily relevant -- the law itself may or may not be ethical.

I think Phosita's point isn't that you don't have the legal right to be a jerk.

He's saying that if you get an indication that what you are doing is harmful (even if simply 'emotionally' / 'psychologically' harming) someone, a non-jerk person (i.e., an ethical person) would assess the necessity of doing said action.

Note - even an ethical person might still decide to continue the action, if all things considered, he finds it necessary (For example, if my breathing offends you, too bad.).   But if he doesn't find it necessary, an ethical person would probably stop.

A jerk would not stop - and in fact, a jerk would probably not even bother to make the assessment.

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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2015, 05:26:44 PM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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Except for the inherent difference of the history of this country, particularly as pertaining to race, class, gender, sexuality, and a myriad of other issues where the assumption of equal ground and equality touted here, and often in these discussions, is no more than a fantasy.
Yup, so the gloves are off when it comes to your run-of-the-mill white male making more than the average, but the hunger-striking kid of an executive with net worth or $8 million or more needs "safe space".

All because of stuff that likely happened before either of the two was born. Sounds legit.

Eh, this is going to go out of bounds for the board, and really any rational, productive discussion, in a matter of posts so probably best not to debate this. Suffice to say, I disagree, and think the terms you use to describe the situation are pretty unflattering towards intended objectives.

Besides the class issues doesn't it seem possible there are race issues as well, that, no matter the class of that one particular student (who perhaps also had the means to be the public face of this issue, thanks to wealth, etc, that some fellow students didn't, that this served the community who lacked the volume of this voice) could have experienced? It is this utterly uncharitable position, mentioned by others, that rankles. The inability to say "there are others who have had experiences I can't imagine." And rather than having empathy and trying to have understanding, and act in this better way, instead dismissing them. This is what I stated earlier as to that even though the world is cruel and unjust, one shouldn't just throw their hands up and say we all have it hard, quit whining. But to understand the difference of those difficulties and experiences, even if you could never experience them (thankfully), and work towards not perpetuating them.

To put on level grounds any brushback rich, straight white males may be currently facing and the persecution minorities, LBGT, the poor have faced for centuries here in America is a false equivalency and only acts (and is used by many) to further separate and perpetuate persecutions.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2015, 05:46:26 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And rather than having empathy and trying to have understanding, and act in this better way, instead dismissing them. This is what I stated earlier as to that even though the world is cruel and unjust, one shouldn't just throw their hands up and say we all have it hard, quit whining. But to understand the difference of those difficulties and experiences, even if you could never experience them (thankfully), and work towards not perpetuating them.
Oh, we had this conversation with Pho in another thread, where he claimed that despite empathy and understanding, every white (male?) in the country is still culpable for white privilege. Apparently this argument doesn't extend to rich-railroad-executive-daddy privilege in the same manner.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2015, 10:10:52 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Here's just another little lovely story of people freaking out about something trivial.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a49135/target-obsessive-christmas-disorder-sweatshirt/
Quote from:  Ron Swanson
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2015, 11:38:16 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Quote from:  Ron Swanson
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2015, 02:12:18 AM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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And rather than having empathy and trying to have understanding, and act in this better way, instead dismissing them. This is what I stated earlier as to that even though the world is cruel and unjust, one shouldn't just throw their hands up and say we all have it hard, quit whining. But to understand the difference of those difficulties and experiences, even if you could never experience them (thankfully), and work towards not perpetuating them.
Oh, we had this conversation with Pho in another thread, where he claimed that despite empathy and understanding, every white (male?) in the country is still culpable for white privilege. Apparently this argument doesn't extend to rich-railroad-executive-daddy privilege in the same manner.

I guess your flippant response is kind of something? I don't even know. I took a tiny bit of time to reply with something substantive and, shockingly, you replied with condescending derision.

When the simple idea of being receptive to the difference of other people's experiences is met with such obstinace  stubbornness, and outright dismissal,  we'll,  why do you think people are frustrated and fed up?

You think you're frustrated by a reply on a message board? imagine dealing with these attitudes every day in interaction after interaction.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2015, 02:30:01 AM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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Like, why not be nice? You're putting  so much more effort and time into making yourself feel persecuted and attacked, when it isn't even happening, when that  energy could be used to listen to others. It is such a waste and so frustrating. The slightest brush back on established comforts and you'd rather retreat to defensiveness and antagonism than listen to others.

You aren't being persecuted. Just hear about others experiences. There's no harm there. It won't kill you or bankrupt you,  it really isn't harmful. What is this bad stuff you think is going to happen in the scenario you've inaginef
D?

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2015, 06:35:01 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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As a veteran who defended our country, I think we have never been truly free.   We don't have it bad,  mind you but total freedom equals chaos.  I don't see how we are going to survive as a country with the nanny state mentality that young kids have.  How did it get to this?