Author Topic: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?  (Read 59970 times)

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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #120 on: November 12, 2015, 03:52:19 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #121 on: November 12, 2015, 03:53:49 PM »

Offline brundlenye the sciencefly

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."

omg all the tps

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #122 on: November 12, 2015, 03:55:44 PM »

Online kozlodoev

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."
Yeah, like for example, that bunch of _____ down in MO that occupied public area, invented threats against themselves, demanded that people care about their "safe space" while simultaneously shouting "we don't care about your job", harassed, threatened, and assaulted fellow students... But somehow that's not a thing to talk about, right?
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2015, 03:55:52 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Actually constitutional rights have been upheld in schools in the past. If Yale kicks a kid out for saying mean things it could feasibly face legal action.

I think you're right, but this gets a little bit complicated when we're talking about extending Constitutional restrictions to private institutions.

My point is just that the Constitution doesn't really have anything to do with a discussion about societal norms.  The Constitution doesn't prevent your peers from calling you out for your behavior.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2015, 03:59:06 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."
Yeah, like for example, that bunch of _____ that occupied public area, invented threats against themselves, demanded that people care about their "safe space" while simultaneously shouting "we don't care about your job", harassed, threatened, and assaulted fellow students... But somehow that's not a thing to talk about, right?

The Mizzou thing?  I was mystified by that, to be honest.  I really don't understand why they were so emphatic about keeping out journalists.  You certainly don't have a right to privacy when you're protesting in a public space like that.

I'm definitely not defending that.

That said, I feel like there must be some nuance there I don't know about -- what happened in the past that made the Concerned  Student 1950 people so wary of media types?  Was it just a zealous conviction against "white media," much like we see with Republican candidates railing against "liberal media," or was there an actual incident that sparked it?

I really have no idea.  I was confused by that whole thing.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2015, 04:06:42 PM »

Offline sahara

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."
Yeah, like for example, that bunch of _____ down in MO that occupied public area, invented threats against themselves, demanded that people care about their "safe space" while simultaneously shouting "we don't care about your job", harassed, threatened, and assaulted fellow students... But somehow that's not a thing to talk about, right?

And they segregated their "safe spaces" by the color of their skin now.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2015, 04:10:08 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."
Yeah, like for example, that bunch of _____ that occupied public area, invented threats against themselves, demanded that people care about their "safe space" while simultaneously shouting "we don't care about your job", harassed, threatened, and assaulted fellow students... But somehow that's not a thing to talk about, right?

The Mizzou thing?  I was mystified by that, to be honest.  I really don't understand why they were so emphatic about keeping out journalists.  You certainly don't have a right to privacy when you're protesting in a public space like that.

I'm definitely not defending that.

That said, I feel like there must be some nuance there I don't know about -- what happened in the past that made the Concerned  Student 1950 people so wary of media types?  Was it just a zealous conviction against "white media," much like we see with Republican candidates railing against "liberal media," or was there an actual incident that sparked it?

I really have no idea.  I was confused by that whole thing.
Which is why "most" is key.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »

Offline mgent

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I wanna be clear that I have no problem with students or people protesting racism and discrimination, but when I see news story and media attention given to Starbucks cups, and the Obsessive Christmas Disorder shirt at target I want to rage. On a similar line,I read a post on twitter from a feminist that parents shouldn't call their child he or she and should call their baby 'babyself' until they can articulate their gender. That is where I draw the line. I'm pro gay and transgender rights, but when I can't call my son a boy or use male pronouns it gets ridiculous.

These things are real too that babyself tweet had like 1500 favorites on twitter and wasn't a joke. People are insane.

That's a new one I haven't heard.    That's utterly insane.

  It's the way of the world. Sooner or later gender-based pronouns will be called hate speech.

http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2015/02/chris-paul-accused-sexism-criticism-nba-female-referee/
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2015, 04:12:13 PM »

Online kozlodoev

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The Mizzou thing?  I was mystified by that, to be honest.  I really don't understand why they were so emphatic about keeping out journalists.  You certainly don't have a right to privacy when you're protesting in a public space like that.

I'm definitely not defending that.

That said, I feel like there must be some nuance there I don't know about -- what happened in the past that made the Concerned  Student 1950 people so wary of media types?  Was it just a zealous conviction against "white media," much like we see with Republican candidates railing against "liberal media," or was there an actual incident that sparked it?

I really have no idea.  I was confused by that whole thing.
Yeah. I really mostly got worked up about this when I saw a professor and a campus administrator shoving a student photographer away from public space (its function is apparently protected by a law in MO), and threatening him with "muscle". As someone who spend a good amount of time as a part of academia, I thought that was really disgraceful. Also, the kid showed phenomenal poise, given the situation.

So far, the more I follow it, the more it seems like a bunch of kids used a racial incident to oust an unpopular president. The only validated fact is that some drunk kid called a black student the N- word (raise your hand if you haven't been drunk and dumb in college). That kid has been removed from campus and  there is a procedure against him, but it was somehow turned into a case of "systemic opression". The other alleged incidents (swastika drawn in turd, and KKK on campus) have so far either been unsubstantiated, or proven a fabrication. I can see why they don't want media types they haven't vetted in there.

And all of this is being spearheaded by a former football player who comes from a family worth millions. That whole thing is wrong on so many levels, and yet it's enough to slap #BlackLivesMatter on top of it, and all can be ignored.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2015, 04:15:46 PM »

Online kozlodoev

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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2015, 04:19:46 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."

Except this isn't ethically sound. There's no ethical mandate to change your behaviors with good intentions that some, but not others, may find offensive. Only radical ethical relativists and subjectivists, which are few in number, can actually accept a radical principle like this, because virtually every component of speech would be subject to universal approval then. That's asinine.
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Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2015, 04:22:53 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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The Mizzou thing?  I was mystified by that, to be honest.  I really don't understand why they were so emphatic about keeping out journalists.  You certainly don't have a right to privacy when you're protesting in a public space like that.

I'm definitely not defending that.

That said, I feel like there must be some nuance there I don't know about -- what happened in the past that made the Concerned  Student 1950 people so wary of media types?  Was it just a zealous conviction against "white media," much like we see with Republican candidates railing against "liberal media," or was there an actual incident that sparked it?

I really have no idea.  I was confused by that whole thing.
Yeah. I really mostly got worked up about this when I saw a professor and a campus administrator shoving a student photographer away from public space (its function is apparently protected by a law in MO), and threatening him with "muscle". As someone who spend a good amount of time as a part of academia, I thought that was really disgraceful. Also, the kid showed phenomenal poise, given the situation.

So far, the more I follow it, the more it seems like a bunch of kids used a racial incident to oust an unpopular president. The only validated fact is that some drunk kid called a black student the N- word (raise your hand if you haven't been drunk and dumb in college). That kid has been removed from campus and  there is a procedure against him, but it was somehow turned into a case of "systemic opression". The other alleged incidents (swastika drawn in turd, and KKK on campus) have so far either been unsubstantiated, or proven a fabrication. I can see why they don't want media types they haven't vetted in there.

And all of this is being spearheaded by a former football player who comes from a family worth millions. That whole thing is wrong on so many levels, and yet it's enough to slap #BlackLivesMatter on top of it, and all can be ignored.

TP. The whole situation was a giant mess, and it's absolutely astounding that none of these people see the hypocritical nature of their arguments, i.e. generalizing isolated incidents to represent a whole population or "systematic oppression."
Quote from:  Ron Swanson
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples.

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2015, 04:38:44 PM »

Offline wiley

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That being said most of this could be solved by people following the "don't be a ****" rule

I agree.

With the add-on:

"and remember that it's possible to be an _____ even if your intentions were good and what you did seemed innocent enough to you.   So be ready to listen and be persuaded to change your behavior, especially if those talking to you speak from a perspective that's very different than your own."

Except this isn't ethically sound. There's no ethical mandate to change your behaviors with good intentions that some, but not others, may find offensive. Only radical ethical relativists and subjectivists, which are few in number, can actually accept a radical principle like this, because virtually every component of speech would be subject to universal approval then. That's asinine.

I didn't read what he said as as a suggestion to automatically change anything.  He said listen and be ready, and he's applying it everyone I assume.  Nothing earth shattering there.  I'm sure he'd agree if that you are asininely told to stop doing something then by all means keep doing it..

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2015, 05:11:10 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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The Mizzou thing?  I was mystified by that, to be honest.  I really don't understand why they were so emphatic about keeping out journalists.  You certainly don't have a right to privacy when you're protesting in a public space like that.

I'm definitely not defending that.

That said, I feel like there must be some nuance there I don't know about -- what happened in the past that made the Concerned  Student 1950 people so wary of media types?  Was it just a zealous conviction against "white media," much like we see with Republican candidates railing against "liberal media," or was there an actual incident that sparked it?

I really have no idea.  I was confused by that whole thing.
Yeah. I really mostly got worked up about this when I saw a professor and a campus administrator shoving a student photographer away from public space (its function is apparently protected by a law in MO), and threatening him with "muscle". As someone who spend a good amount of time as a part of academia, I thought that was really disgraceful. Also, the kid showed phenomenal poise, given the situation.

So far, the more I follow it, the more it seems like a bunch of kids used a racial incident to oust an unpopular president. The only validated fact is that some drunk kid called a black student the N- word (raise your hand if you haven't been drunk and dumb in college). That kid has been removed from campus and  there is a procedure against him, but it was somehow turned into a case of "systemic opression". The other alleged incidents (swastika drawn in turd, and KKK on campus) have so far either been unsubstantiated, or proven a fabrication. I can see why they don't want media types they haven't vetted in there.

And all of this is being spearheaded by a former football player who comes from a family worth millions. That whole thing is wrong on so many levels, and yet it's enough to slap #BlackLivesMatter on top of it, and all can be ignored.

I have former colleagues currently at Missouri and there's a lot more to it than the narrative here.  This has been building up for quite a while along a lot of different fronts.  Other notable incidents included kicking off the semester by eliminating health insurance for grad students, and announcing this via email with literally 12 hours' notice.  They also discovered in pushing back against this that no one had even bothered to read the annual grad student feedback survey for 12 straight years.  And, under pressure from the state legislature, they severely restricted students' abilities to use Planned Parenthood and other services, then under even more pressure from the student body, hastily returned them later.  There have also been multiple votes of no confidence from faculty as the admins were basically non-responsive to their issues as well.

This is a good timeline from the student newspaper:  http://www.themaneater.com/special-sections/mu-fall-2015/

It only covers this semester but these issues have been developing for the past couple of years as the admins were detached and dismissive of campus issues, which just fed the fire. The uproar over the response to racial climate complaints was just the straw that broke the camel's back once it became a national story.  But the specific incidents were the jumping-off points for the protests; the underlying issues had been festering for a long time.  The gist I get is that they had pretty much alienated the vast majority of the student body, faculty, and staff by the time this stuff broke.


...that said, keeping a reporter out of a public space is fairly abhorrent.  It looks like the professor involved has resigned.  But the people doing that are a fraction of those opposed to Wolfe and Loftin.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 05:18:36 PM by foulweatherfan »

Re: So... Anyone else concerned about the war on free speech?
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2015, 05:14:21 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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...and to avoid making a single wall of text post, while I'm sympathetic to the concerns of the protestors, and Wolfe/Loftin leaving seems richly deserved, I have no idea how campus administrators are supposed to police something as nebulous as the social climate. 

You can give people training to say, "don't call people racial slurs, don't be pricks to them because of their race, and don't dress up like caricatures of other races", you can punish people when it happens, but there's no way whatsoever to preemptively eliminate that kind of behavior.  Especially when some of the perpetrators may not even be part of the university.  It seems preposterous.