Is anyone else worried that the Lakers picked up a legitimate beast in Randle?

[crimson_stallion]

Not worried about Randle.

He has the physical size and strength to dominate against rookies fresh out of college (and third string NBA players) in the preseason.  He won't have that advantage when hes going up 1st Tier NBA bigs in real games.

His combination of sub-par size and barely above average athleticism will make it extremely difficult for him to dominate (or even to be consistently productive) against against proper, starting quality NBA bigs.

[MBunge]

Yup.  I was saying the Smart vs Randle debate wasn't over yet and people acted like I was trolling.  Watch the kid... He's legit.

More or less legit than Anthony Bennett?

I honestly don't understand this thread.  Smart has proven far more as an NBA player than Randle.  Could Randle turn out better?  Sure.  James Young could also turn out better than either.

Mike

[alldaboston]

Not worried about Randle.

He has the physical size and strength to dominate against rookies fresh out of college (and third string NBA players) in the preseason.  He won't have that advantage when hes going up 1st Tier NBA bigs in real games.

His combination of sub-par size and barely above average athleticism will make it extremely difficult for him to dominate (or even to be consistently productive) against against proper, starting quality NBA bigs.

Draymond Green isn't exactly a third string NBA player though

[chambers]

I love how a few decent games in preseason means that he's a future all star. Where was this in Smart?

You should know by now there's a double standard here. If it's a C's player shining in preseason, it's meaningless and most likely due to inferior competition. On the other hand, if it's another team's player shining in preseason, it's mostly likely due to transcending talent. It's maddening.

Please quote/highlight when I've put down a C's player shining in preseason?
In fact I was one of the only people here defending the Rozier pick and I've also said I think he's going to be an awesome player relative to the position he was picked. I've said the same about RJ Hunter during summer league along with Rozier- as have most Celticsblog fans actually. Can you point out a trend that suggests anything other than 90% of Celticsblogs fans being incredibly thrilled with our picks this year and their play up to this point?
Can you point out a trend that suggesst 90% of Cetlicsblog isn't thrilled with Marcus Smart's progression and great preseason play? (only 2 games but he's looked really good).
Don't taint an entire thread with some generalization BS- just give credit where it's due.
If you hate LarBrd33 please put down the sniper rifle and keep the chest beating for another thread.

[crimson_stallion]

Sully was one of our most frequent "prized youngsters" and he's on the verge of being a 5th string big man this year.

There you go, referring to Sully as a 5th string big man again.

If Sully is a 5th big on the court for us this year it's not a reflection of his talent or his production as a player, but a reflection of his fit on our team and our excessive depth at the PF / C spots.

Sully would be either a starter or 1st big off the bench for probably about 80% of the teams out there.

It's like Lee barely playing last year in Golden State - that doesn't mean he is an "end of bench" caliber talent.  It just means other guys were a better fit in the GS system, which limited his time on the court. 

[chambers]

Yup.  I was saying the Smart vs Randle debate wasn't over yet and people acted like I was trolling.  Watch the kid... He's legit.

More or less legit than Anthony Bennett?

I honestly don't understand this thread.  Smart has proven far more as an NBA player than Randle.  Could Randle turn out better?  Sure.  James Young could also turn out better than either.

Mike

Randle has looked pretty awesome during pre season. Simple as that.
He was injured last year and he plays for the Lakers.
Why is this turning into a Smart vs Randle competition?

Jesus.

[Rondo9]

I love how a few decent games in preseason means that he's a future all star. Where was this in Smart?

You should know by now there's a double standard here. If it's a C's player shining in preseason, it's meaningless and most likely due to inferior competition. On the other hand, if it's another team's player shining in preseason, it's mostly likely due to transcending talent. It's maddening.

If you hate LarBrd33 please put down the sniper rifle and keep the chest beating for another thread.

What does he have to do with anything he said?

[hwangjini_1]

I love how a few decent games in preseason means that he's a future all star. Where was this in Smart?

You should know by now there's a double standard here. If it's a C's player shining in preseason, it's meaningless and most likely due to inferior competition. On the other hand, if it's another team's player shining in preseason, it's mostly likely due to transcending talent. It's maddening.

Not as much of a double standard as you'd think.

Regardless of how Smart develops from here on out, it's widely acknowledged that he's an elite perimeter defender.  Worst-case scenario he'll end up a Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen type that sticks around the league for years as a defensive specialist.  Best-case scenario, he develops into a star, but that would require a major leap for him offensively.  Thus-far, he's been disappointing on that end.

Right now if you were to poll folks on the better prospect between Randle and Smart, Smart would absolutely win.  But that doesn't mean I'm not impressed by what I'm seeing out of Randle.  And as I've been saying for a couple weeks, it's a debate that will gain steam the more we see out of Julius.   I can't pretend like I'm not impressed by what he's doing right now.  He looks like he'll be a 20 and 10 player.  It's pre-season so take it with a grain of salt, but over his past 5 games he's averaging 14.2 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal with 59% shooting in 22.6mpg.   THat's per-36 numbers of:  22.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists and 1.6 steals.   That's not a double standard, it's just math.   If you watch him play, it's hard not to be impressed by his explosiveness with and without the ball.  It's hard not to notice his surprising ball-handling and passing.  It's hard not to notice his improvements on the defensive end.  He's got the "element of surprise" working in his favor right now and I still have questions about whether or not he can shoot (he just seems to be attacking the basket relentlessly). 

We acknowledge Smart is a legit prospect, but his struggles (offense) continue to be a struggle.  Over the second half of the season he shot 36%/32%/63% and his hit/miss performance in summerleague and pre-season don't do much to temper those fears.   Since a lot of folks (myself included) had Randle higher on the draft board... and Boston opted to take Smart due to Rondo and our PF log-jam, it's hard not to compare those two guys.   We'll be looking at Smart vs Randle for a while.   

Also I'll say that last year in pre-season, Smart seemed to be slightly better.  8.4 points, 2.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 2.4 steals in 26.4mpg.   Randle averaged 8.8 points, 5.8 rebounds, 1.1 assist in 20.9mpg.   If you evened out their minutes, Randle was slightly better statistically.   Obviously, we can't compare them during the regular season, because Randle played a total of 14 minutes.   But so far, Randle has been the more impressive during pre-season this year.   

Smart might win in the polls right now, but there's a real debate here we'll have to revisit at some point.

The thing is, you never take context into the picture. Of course Randle is going to be putting up better numbers right now, because a) he's on a much worse team with a larger role and b) he has much more freedom in the offense than Smart. It's a bad analogy, just as it was last year when everyone wanted to compare him to Noel. Now I'll openly admit that a defensive big is more valuable than a defensive guard, but comparing Smart to either of those players right now based solely on their performance without considering the context is illogical.

It's similar to trying to compare Love's numbers in Cleveland versus Minnesota and making the argument that Minnesota Love was better than Cleveland Love, i.e. it fails to take the context of team dynamics into consideration.

So I'm not saying that it won't ever be a debate; I'm saying to be consistent and fair. You can't categorically dismiss player performances due to them being in the preseason for one team, which you undeniably did for most of the C's players, and not the others. You also have to take context into consideration with this debate. You can be impressed with Randle all you want, and you're probably justified in this belief. I haven't watched him, so I can't really say. However, at least treat him with the same type of skeptical judgment that you treat our own players with. You know the saying...

Sounds more like you are making excuses for poor performance.  Having a deep team isn't why smart shot 30% in summer league.

Noel is a superior prospect.  Randle might be too.  We will have to see

lb, once again you completely evade a key, and oft repeated point about your posting. you were being called out on having a double standard, yet again. it is true, you do and it detracts from your posts.

please recognize this habit and be more even handed in your evaluation of celtics versus non-celtics.

doing so will improve your posting immensely. you are a very good poster, and this would make you an even better one.

[KG Living Legend]

 Jpotter, you make a good point, but you must acknowledge that if Smart were in LA right now and given free reign on offense he wouldn't look half as good.

[KG Living Legend]

Not worried about Randle.







 Crimson you can't be serious about Randle as an athlete. It's really thus simple with him, if he knocks down a 15 footer consistently he's unguardable.

He has the physical size and strength to dominate against rookies fresh out of college (and third string NBA players) in the preseason.  He won't have that advantage when hes going up 1st Tier NBA bigs in real games.

His combination of sub-par size and barely above average athleticism will make it extremely difficult for him to dominate (or even to be consistently productive) against against proper, starting quality NBA bigs.

[jpotter33]

I love how a few decent games in preseason means that he's a future all star. Where was this in Smart?

You should know by now there's a double standard here. If it's a C's player shining in preseason, it's meaningless and most likely due to inferior competition. On the other hand, if it's another team's player shining in preseason, it's mostly likely due to transcending talent. It's maddening.

Not as much of a double standard as you'd think.

Regardless of how Smart develops from here on out, it's widely acknowledged that he's an elite perimeter defender.  Worst-case scenario he'll end up a Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen type that sticks around the league for years as a defensive specialist.  Best-case scenario, he develops into a star, but that would require a major leap for him offensively.  Thus-far, he's been disappointing on that end.

Right now if you were to poll folks on the better prospect between Randle and Smart, Smart would absolutely win.  But that doesn't mean I'm not impressed by what I'm seeing out of Randle.  And as I've been saying for a couple weeks, it's a debate that will gain steam the more we see out of Julius.   I can't pretend like I'm not impressed by what he's doing right now.  He looks like he'll be a 20 and 10 player.  It's pre-season so take it with a grain of salt, but over his past 5 games he's averaging 14.2 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal with 59% shooting in 22.6mpg.   THat's per-36 numbers of:  22.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists and 1.6 steals.   That's not a double standard, it's just math.   If you watch him play, it's hard not to be impressed by his explosiveness with and without the ball.  It's hard not to notice his surprising ball-handling and passing.  It's hard not to notice his improvements on the defensive end.  He's got the "element of surprise" working in his favor right now and I still have questions about whether or not he can shoot (he just seems to be attacking the basket relentlessly). 

We acknowledge Smart is a legit prospect, but his struggles (offense) continue to be a struggle.  Over the second half of the season he shot 36%/32%/63% and his hit/miss performance in summerleague and pre-season don't do much to temper those fears.   Since a lot of folks (myself included) had Randle higher on the draft board... and Boston opted to take Smart due to Rondo and our PF log-jam, it's hard not to compare those two guys.   We'll be looking at Smart vs Randle for a while.   

Also I'll say that last year in pre-season, Smart seemed to be slightly better.  8.4 points, 2.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 2.4 steals in 26.4mpg.   Randle averaged 8.8 points, 5.8 rebounds, 1.1 assist in 20.9mpg.   If you evened out their minutes, Randle was slightly better statistically.   Obviously, we can't compare them during the regular season, because Randle played a total of 14 minutes.   But so far, Randle has been the more impressive during pre-season this year.   

Smart might win in the polls right now, but there's a real debate here we'll have to revisit at some point.

The thing is, you never take context into the picture. Of course Randle is going to be putting up better numbers right now, because a) he's on a much worse team with a larger role and b) he has much more freedom in the offense than Smart. It's a bad analogy, just as it was last year when everyone wanted to compare him to Noel. Now I'll openly admit that a defensive big is more valuable than a defensive guard, but comparing Smart to either of those players right now based solely on their performance without considering the context is illogical.

It's similar to trying to compare Love's numbers in Cleveland versus Minnesota and making the argument that Minnesota Love was better than Cleveland Love, i.e. it fails to take the context of team dynamics into consideration.

So I'm not saying that it won't ever be a debate; I'm saying to be consistent and fair. You can't categorically dismiss player performances due to them being in the preseason for one team, which you undeniably did for most of the C's players, and not the others. You also have to take context into consideration with this debate. You can be impressed with Randle all you want, and you're probably justified in this belief. I haven't watched him, so I can't really say. However, at least treat him with the same type of skeptical judgment that you treat our own players with. You know the saying...

Sounds more like you are making excuses for poor performance.  Having a deep team isn't why smart shot 30% in summer league.

Noel is a superior prospect.  Randle might be too.  We will have to see

lb, once again you completely evade a key, and oft repeated point about your posting. you were being called out on having a double standard, yet again. it is true, you do and it detracts from your posts.

please recognize this habit and be more even handed in your evaluation of celtics versus non-celtics.

doing so will improve your posting immensely. you are a very good poster, and this would make you an even better one.

TP. It's pretty obvious. That's fine if you want to analyze players like that, just realize it's faulty reasoning and own it.

[jpotter33]

 Jpotter, you make a good point, but you must acknowledge that if Smart were in LA right now and given free reign on offense he wouldn't look half as good.

I don't have to acknowledge anything of the sort lol Randle might be a tad better offensively, but saying Smart "wouldn't look half as good" is a major exaggeration. Plus, if you take both sides of the ball into consideration, Smart wipes the floor with Randle all day every day.

[BDeCosta26]

 Also it was an easy pick.

 Wiggins
 Parker
 Randle

 Embiid
 Smart

 In that order. The top three guys were easily the best players in college hoops. And there was nothing about Randle that says he can't do this in the NBA. In fact he's the new generation of PF that takes the rebound handles it and makes good passes, and he's a total beast going to the rim.

Huh?! The new breed of PF is made up of guys who can playmake, shoot the 3 and hold their own defensively. Randle has a game similar to Zach Randolph, who's certainly not a guy you'd say belongs to the "new generation " of 4's. Ibaka is a guy who fits that description, deff not Randle.

I wanted Smart even at the time but I've always thought Randle was a pretty good prospect with a few really good skills and a couple major flaws. IMO, the problem with Randle (at least at the time, I haven't seen him much in the pre-season) is that his flaws are bad enough they don't seem easily correctable. For instance, Smart has always been labeled a poor shooter, which he was in college. But he shot fairly well from the stripe and in spot-up shots, and his jumper didn't seem to be totally broken. He shot 28% from deep in college, but Last year he shot 34% from 3 at the farther away NBA 3. The shooting, and his comfort running the offense/passing ability, were his two major concerns. Both have clearly Improved in his time at this level, and will likely continue. When you consider role in the offense and Smart's ankle injury, he didn't look nearly as bad as you say he did last year. If he can keep improving a little in those areas, he'll be a Tony Allen level defender with a MUCH better offensive game, and that's an All-Star caliber player.

As for Randle, his shooting and more importantly his defensive struggles are much more difficult obstacles to overcome. Now, Randle has enough skill to be a productive NBA player without major improvement in those areas. But he won't be an All-Star level talent without it. I mean, if your a 6'8-6'9 guy who isn't good enough defensively to play some 5 (Like Draymond, Mickey, Ibaka) AND you can't at least shoot the mid-range jumper with consistency it's gonna be hard for you to be more than an energy bench guy. Randle could be good at that right now cause he has a great motor, a nose for rebounds, bulls his way to easy points. But his lacking in those two important areas aren't the easiest to fix. He may improve his jumper to the point that he's knock down from 14-18 feet, but coming into the league his shot was really poor. The defense though is the real concern. It's hard to play a guy 30 mpg at the 4 if he's a liability defensively and he can't space the floor.

Randle could have a solid 13-7 kinda year, but I'd still rather have Smart.

[jpotter33]

I love how a few decent games in preseason means that he's a future all star. Where was this in Smart?

You should know by now there's a double standard here. If it's a C's player shining in preseason, it's meaningless and most likely due to inferior competition. On the other hand, if it's another team's player shining in preseason, it's mostly likely due to transcending talent. It's maddening.

Please quote/highlight when I've put down a C's player shining in preseason?
In fact I was one of the only people here defending the Rozier pick and I've also said I think he's going to be an awesome player relative to the position he was picked. I've said the same about RJ Hunter during summer league along with Rozier- as have most Celticsblog fans actually. Can you point out a trend that suggests anything other than 90% of Celticsblogs fans being incredibly thrilled with our picks this year and their play up to this point?
Can you point out a trend that suggesst 90% of Cetlicsblog isn't thrilled with Marcus Smart's progression and great preseason play? (only 2 games but he's looked really good).
Don't taint an entire thread with some generalization BS- just give credit where it's due.
If you hate LarBrd33 please put down the sniper rifle and keep the chest beating for another thread.

Settle down there, champ. When the name "Chambers" comes out of my mouth regarding something you said, then you can put me on blast.

We all know who I was talking to, because it's an obvious tactic that is used over and over again. I have no problem with LarBrd33, and I don't think he has any problem with me. We just happen to disagree about a lot of things. How am i picking up the "sniper rifle" and "chest beating" by pointing out some obvious flawed reasoning? There is an obvious double standard there that is empirically verifiable, i.e. his tirade that we shouldn't look too much into Celtics' preseason numbers then arguing that Randle has looked excellent in preseason without even mentioning the disclaimer of it being preseason. It's fine if he skews towards skepticism; we just ask that he applies it fairly to other teams as well.

Take a chill pill, brah...

[crimson_stallion]

Crimson you can't be serious about Randle as an athlete. It's really thus simple with him, if he knocks down a 15 footer consistently he's unguardable.

I'm absolutely serious.

Randle is a virtual clone of David Lee, minus the court vision, the baskeball IQ and the midrange jumper.

He might be a good starter in the NBA.  I very seriously doubt that he'll ever become more than that.