Author Topic: Celtics players should be taking better shots  (Read 5413 times)

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Celtics players should be taking better shots
« on: October 10, 2015, 01:50:51 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Years ago someone asked Satch Sanders about how he felt about being known primarily as a defensive specialist and not much of a scorer.  He said it wasn't that he couldn't score, rather that he learned he helped the team more by focusing on what he did best and let others carry the scoring load.  (FYI: He's number 3 on the players with the most NBA Championships with 8.) 

He said at one point in his career he decided that he would work on scoring more.  It turned out he was good at it.  Instead of his usual 9-10 points, he scored over 20 points in two straight games or so.  However, even though he exceeded his scoring average, the Celtics lost both games.  So, he decided that he would go back to being a defensive and rebounding specialist.  Red never said anything to him about his scoring. But Satch realized  his role was not that of a primary scorer, rather to help the team win games the best he could. 
(I don't remember the specifics of this story.  If you remember it better feel free to add to it or correct me.) 

So, how does this relate to the players on the current Celtic's roster?  My feeling, after watching the last two exhibition games and even a good number of games last year, is that too often players are shooting just to score points and not to win games.
 
In other words they are not looking for the best possible shot the team could take, rather making sure their scoring numbers in the box score isn't zero or close to it.  I see too many times when three pointers are taken with someone in their face.  Or, taken with 20 seconds left on the shot clock.  Or, they are settling for the outside jumper when they could be driving to the hoop.  Or, they are driving to the hoop but not looking to pass. 

I'm not saying they are not passing the ball.  (Sometimes they over pass and many times the passing has been remarkably good.) Nor, am I saying that players shouldn't shoot the tough shot at times because they could be drawing fouls or even hitting these tougher shots or it's late in the shooting clock.  It's just that more attention should be made to throwing off the other team's defense and creating better shots for teammates or for themselves.  Too often it seems players are shooting three pointers simply because they haven't scored after playing a few minutes or more and it appears they are trying to prove something to the coach or themselves.

Occasionally a player isn't scoring because the ball isn't rotated enough.  So, once they get it they automatically look at this as a golden scoring opportunity not to be missed.

Stevens needs to let the team know that scoring points shouldn't be their main goal.  Granted he should continue giving everyone the green light to shoot where ever and when ever they want, but also make them aware that helping the team win is much more important.  For example; are they setting good picks?  Are they creating space by drawing double coverage?  Are they boxing out? etc...Maybe more attention should be made of the plus or minus stats, not just their individual scoring totals.

On the other hand, if a player is hitting his shots, then finding this player should be a priority. 

Obviously some players should be shooting more than others because they are better at it. 

I'm not going to mention names because I think most of the players on the team are guilty of just shooting when they should be looking for best possible shot.  Their goal should be to win games, not just score points. 



Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2015, 01:57:54 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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He said it wasn't that he couldn't score, rather that he learned he helped the team more by focusing on what he did best and let others carry the scoring load. 

The thing is, there are very few players on the team right now who can "carry the scoring load."  By virtue of having a team comprised almost entirely of role players, we've got some guys taking more shots than they really ought to be taking (Avery Bradley comes to mind).

It's pretty much unavoidable.  If Satch Sanders had played on a team with less talent, he'd have taken 10-20 shots a night, perhaps, even though it wasn't his ideal role.


This is why having superstars is so important.  If you have guys who can carry a really large load, it allows everybody else to just focus on doing what they are really good at.  The Celts don't have anybody like that, so it's offense and defense by committee.  Inevitably some guys get a little bit overextended as a result.
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Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2015, 03:05:02 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I hear that. They need better shot selection. Some bad shooting habits I noticed

IT often moving and covered still taking shots. Also jumpshot pass is horrible for a bunch of reasons. Can he just run to an open spot, square up, then catch and shoot? Why does he always like to move around with the ball? (It's also Turner's issue. Just spot up and take the shot.)

Smart and Crowder randomly jacking up early covered shots. They do decent when open why randomly take those?

AB not driving off catches enough. He could create some easy shots for the bigs but he always pulls up and shoots even with a hand in his face.

KO with the pause 1 second, pump fake twice, dribble once, pass fake, okay now take the shot that was open but is now covered.

Sully with the love of trail threes/deep twos. Sully you are not Paul Pierce, that isn't a good shot for you.

Hope they get away from the bad shots and focus more on open looks. As PhoSita mentioned none are superstars to be taking tough shots. BS doesn't want those shots.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:50:07 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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I hear that they need better shot selection. Some bad shooting habits I noticed

IT often moving and covered still taking shots. Also jumpshot pass is horrible for a bunch of reasons. Can he just run to an open spot, square up, then catch and shoot? Why does he always like to move around with the ball. (Also Turner's issue. Just spot up and take the shot.)

Smart and Crowder randomly jacking up early covered shots. They do decent when open why randomly take those?

AB not driving off catches enough. He could create some easy shots for the bigs but he always pulls up and shoots even with a hand in his face.

KO with the pause 1 second, pump fake twice, dribble once, pass fake now take the shot that was open but is now covered.

Sully with the love of trail threes/deep twos. Sully you are not Paul Pierce,  that isn't a good shot for you.

Hope they get away from the bad shots and focus more on open looks. As PhoSita mentioned none are superstars to be taking tough shots. BS doesn't want those shots.

TP Csfan  >.
You wrote what I would have wanted to add to my OP, but couldn't articulate.  Good analysis

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2015, 03:39:22 PM »

Offline Denis998

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I hear that they need better shot selection. Some bad shooting habits I noticed

IT often moving and covered still taking shots. Also jumpshot pass is horrible for a bunch of reasons. Can he just run to an open spot, square up, then catch and shoot? Why does he always like to move around with the ball. (Also Turner's issue. Just spot up and take the shot.)

Smart and Crowder randomly jacking up early covered shots. They do decent when open why randomly take those?

AB not driving off catches enough. He could create some easy shots for the bigs but he always pulls up and shoots even with a hand in his face.

KO with the pause 1 second, pump fake twice, dribble once, pass fake now take the shot that was open but is now covered.

Sully with the love of trail threes/deep twos. Sully you are not Paul Pierce,  that isn't a good shot for you.

Hope they get away from the bad shots and focus more on open looks. As PhoSita mentioned none are superstars to be taking tough shots. BS doesn't want those shots.
I am extremely annoyed by the KO Pump Fake, you basically know its coming, and I bet that fake is messing up his shooting mechanics.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2015, 01:45:03 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Yesterday, the Patriots won another game under the direction of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.  This morning I thought of couple of the reasons why I often feel they are so successful.  One reason is that they minimize the number of errors they make.  And, a second reason is that have learned to adjust when necessary.  For example, in yesterday's game, Greg Hardy had two sacks in the first half and the whole defensive line was giving Brady fits.  So, what does he/they do....adjust by speeding up Tom's delivery and it was business as usual for the Patriot's crew. 

These types of adjustments and error minimization have been a major part of the Patriots modus operandi over the past 15 years. I understand having a superstar offensive player is the backbone to the team. On the other hand Tom and the team were not putting up big numbers in his early years.  Thus, turnover control was paramount.

So, how does this relate to the original post about the team's shot selection?  My feeling is they are very much related.  For one, the Celtics are not adjusting to their poor shot selections. These decisions to shoot questionable shots are almost equivalent to turnovers.  And, it's the same players taking the same misguided shots over and over again...game after game.  Thus, on average, the Celtics give the other team an advantage if their opponents return down court and take better shots. 

As Csfan wrote, IT repeatedly takes shots while being closely covered and doesn't move to an open place to shoot.  (Okay, he does draw fouls in many cases, but it doesn't lend itself to good team play.)  Smart and Crowder "randomly jacking up early covered shots" happens all the time.  KO and his quirky fakes and most questionable are Sully's outside 3's and long twos.  Csfan also hit the nail on the head when he writes, "Sully you are not Paul Pierce, that isn't a good shot for you."  How can he be convinced?  Or, can he be convinced?  Can the Celtics adjust?  Are they willing to adjust? 

Someone has to take the lead in changing the shooting philosophy on this team.  Could be Stevens doesn't want to bruise egos or have players lose confidence in their shots.  So, he just says shoot at will.  (Doc had excruciatingly painful problems with hurting the feelings of veterans.) Does Stevens have the same problem?  Could it be that he's in a Catch-22 situation? 

Or, maybe the players don't realize that if everyone is on-board with looking for the best possible shot, then they all win.  This is because the team will be looking for THEM to get the most optimal shot possible.  It's a win-win situation.  However, if one player doesn't believe in "win-win", then the team as a whole suffers. 

Should the C's revisit the Ubuntu philosophy?  Or, should someone, either the coach or one of the players, make sure everyone is steering the ship in the same direction with the goal being for everyone to be a winner. And, to enjoy their teammates success as much as their own.   

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2015, 02:36:01 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I have been a harsh critic of Sully and I thought his shot selection the first game was superb, he did shoot one three and he missed it.   But his other shots were inside.

Sometimes a bad shot by your best player is better than a good shot by a poor player.   Guys are labeled stars for a reason folks.  IT should be able to take any shot he wants IMO.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2015, 02:44:53 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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It comes down to practice and execution. The more you run the plays and shots you want the players to execute in a game in practice the more they will except it as the right choice in the game. Practice is where you build postive habits. Simple shoot arounds I find are the worse form of practice. Players should practice shooting in their individual practice time and if smart try to immulate the shooting spots from the drills they did in practice. In this way coaches focus on improving players knowledge and comfort with the system. As the players perfect effectiveness within that system. All drills and play should be five on five. Even on defense each week three lower bench players, a guard, wing and big should work exclusively on scouting and opponent simulation for that weeks opponents. Then run drills with the scouts against the top 8 rotation. In this way you build better team opponent knowledge and give the lesser rotation players a big role in wins before even playing the games. It will take a group commitment to being not just smarter but wiser. The coaching and players have to all be better to get better shots it's not all on the players.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2015, 02:55:50 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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Very well-worded and intelligent post. TP. However, I think the basis of the OP was actually incorrect.

There was a post on CB awhile ago that, in my opinion, didn't get enough attention. It had all of the statistics of every team's shot attempts, the frequency of every type of shot taken (layup, 5-10 ft, 10-18 ft, 3-pointers, etc.) and how well-guarded the shooter was (i.e. the average distance between the shooter and the nearest defender). If I recall correctly, the Celtics were top 5 in the league in "easy" shots attempted.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2015, 03:06:31 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Practice is where you build postive habits. Simple shoot arounds I find are the worse form of practice. Players should practice shooting in their individual practice time and if smart try to immulate the shooting spots from the drills they did in practice.

Bobby Huggins, yes that Coach Huggins, told me never to practice if it was not game speed, anything else is a waste.  This means shoot with movement at game speed.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2015, 03:26:12 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I am not worried about this team having a problem with shot selection for the most part I expect high quality shots due to their passing. I predict our offense will be much better this upcoming season than the previous one due to shooting 3's at a higher percentage and more free throw attempts. We will be near the top of the league in assists.
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Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2015, 03:48:45 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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As Csfan wrote, IT repeatedly takes shots while being closely covered and doesn't move to an open place to shoot.  (Okay, he does draw fouls in many cases, but it doesn't lend itself to good team play.)

IT's extremely high scoring efficiency (partly a result of drawing so many fouls) says that you are wrong.

Isaiah's ability to draw contact has resulted in a career FT/FGA ratio of .372 which understates his more current ability since he sunk charity baskets at a ridiculous .481 times per FGA rate this last Spring with Boston.

Think about that:  For every 2 FGA he attempted for us last Spring, he essentially _made_ a free throw!!!  Not to mention the amount of foul pressure he put on opposing players.

On the particular situation of Isaiah taking shots when "closely covered", Isaiah is very aware that most players tower over him and everyone of them think that they are going to be able to block his shot.   So he takes advantage of that by instead inducing them to foul him.  In truth, he got blocked on just 6.7% of his shots last year.

That is a skill.  That's not 'bad shot selection'.   That skill is why Isaiah has an unreal TS% (scoring efficiency) of .575 for his career.

Lamenting the tendency of this team's offense to take 'bad shots'  misses the mark on why the offense has been sub par the last couple of seasons.  The problem has less to do with the conditions of the shots than it is to do with who is taking the shots. 

The trend in our offense has been to 'spread the offense around' so much such that too many shots are being taken by bad shooters.  It is a problem that if you share shots too evenly, you are more likely to end up as a mediocre offense.   Because unless you are an exceptional team, your average shooter is going to be mediocre.

The problems with the offense were, as Phosita stated, more with the fact that we had many lesser offensive players of poor efficiency taking far too many shots and not enough shots being taken by our most efficient scorers.

Evan Turner had a miserable eFG% of .451 and a miserable TS% of .481, yet he took the second most FGA on the Celtics last season.   Avery Bradley posted not-as-miserable-but-not-good mediocre .490/.501 efficiencies and yet he took the MOST FGA for this team last year.

When the two players who took the most shots on your team post mediocre-to-horrible efficiency numbers, then your offense will be, at best, mediocre.   And sure enough, thats what the team's offense was last year:  Mediocre (18th in offensive rating).

That isn't to pick on Bradley or Turner as bad players.   That's to point out that they should not be our two most prolific shooters.   Just like Satch Sanders realized.

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Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 03:55:17 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Quote
Practice is where you build postive habits. Simple shoot arounds I find are the worse form of practice. Players should practice shooting in their individual practice time and if smart try to immulate the shooting spots from the drills they did in practice.

Bobby Huggins, yes that Coach Huggins, told me never to practice if it was not game speed, anything else is a waste.  This means shoot with movement at game speed.
Which is very good. Another one is practice free throw mechanics 3x more than normal shots. If you have good free throw mechanics it translates to shots on the floor as your body's upper half will want to line up despite if you moving with or getting the ball.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2015, 03:59:47 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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As Csfan wrote, IT repeatedly takes shots while being closely covered and doesn't move to an open place to shoot.  (Okay, he does draw fouls in many cases, but it doesn't lend itself to good team play.)

IT's extremely high scoring efficiency (partly a result of drawing so many fouls) says that you are wrong.

Isaiah's ability to draw contact has resulted in a career FT/FGA ratio of .372 which understates his more current ability since he sunk charity baskets at a ridiculous .481 times per FGA rate this last Spring with Boston.

Think about that:  For every 2 FGA he attempted for us last Spring, he essentially _made_ a free throw!!!  Not to mention the amount of foul pressure he put on opposing players.

On the particular situation of Isaiah taking shots when "closely covered", Isaiah is very aware that most players tower over him and everyone of them think that they are going to be able to block his shot.   So he takes advantage of that by instead inducing them to foul him.  In truth, he got blocked on just 6.7% of his shots last year.

That is a skill.  That's not 'bad shot selection'.   That skill is why Isaiah has an unreal TS% (scoring efficiency) of .575 for his career.

Lamenting the tendency of this team's offense to take 'bad shots'  misses the mark on why the offense has been sub par the last couple of seasons.  The problem has less to do with the conditions of the shots than it is to do with who is taking the shots. 

The trend in our offense has been to 'spread the offense around' so much such that too many shots are being taken by bad shooters.  It is a problem that if you share shots too evenly, you are more likely to end up as a mediocre offense.   Because unless you are an exceptional team, your average shooter is going to be mediocre.

The problems with the offense were, as Phosita stated, more with the fact that we had many lesser offensive players of poor efficiency taking far too many shots and not enough shots being taken by our most efficient scorers.

Evan Turner had a miserable eFG% of .451 and a miserable TS% of .481, yet he took the second most FGA on the Celtics last season.   Avery Bradley posted not-as-miserable-but-not-good mediocre .490/.501 efficiencies and yet he took the MOST FGA for this team last year.

When the two players who took the most shots on your team post mediocre-to-horrible efficiency numbers, then your offense will be, at best, mediocre.   And sure enough, thats what the team's offense was last year:  Mediocre (18th in offensive rating).

That isn't to pick on Bradley or Turner as bad players.   That's to point out that they should not be our two most prolific shooters.   Just like Satch Sanders realized.
No one is talking about driving to the rim, one dribble space shots or looking for a foul. We are talking about the need to probe/ dance/ stutter dribble before the shot.

Re: Celtics players should be taking better shots
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2015, 04:03:37 PM »

Offline littleteapot

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I think different teams react differently to the defense taking away what you do well on offense. In a motion offense ideally you can reverse the ball multiple times and probe until the you get what you want, but I don't think the C's have the personnel to play like that. We have only a few guys who are really good at passing, and we don't really have anyone to take the bail-out shot with 2 seconds on the shotclock. I don't have a problem with taking an OK shot instead of trying to use all 24 seconds and risking a turnover. It's pretty amazing how well we limited turnovers last year.

I think this year Stevens should push guys to be a bit more patient, let plays develop and hopefully improve their ability to react to the defense as a team.
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