Author Topic: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.  (Read 5773 times)

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About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« on: October 09, 2015, 05:52:09 PM »

Online The Oracle

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  Why do people continually claim as though it was a fact that the Celtics would have drafted Justise Winslow?  There is no evidence of this and it is much more likely that was not their intention at all.  It is very likely that pick was to be included in a larger package trade.  Quite possibly to the Knicks involving Porzingis and/or Carmelo(much less likely).

  Reasoning:

    1.  It came out after the draft that the C's had a deal to acquire Atlanta's #15 pick.  After the C's could not trade up the pick went to Wash. via N.Y. sending Hardaway and 2 2nds to Atl..  It is likely this trade was a part of a larger trade between the C's and N.Y. and that Hardaway was always the player going to Atlanta.

    2.  It has never made any sense that the Celtics would dump a ton of assets into Winslow when they could have had a very similar player at #16 in Anderson.  You would only do this if you saw superstar written across his face and I don't see it.

    3.  Even if the C's were drafting for themselves it is quite likely they would have chosen Kaminski or possibly Turner.  Contrary to popular belief stretch bigs hold a ton of value around the league as evidenced by Charlotte turning down all those picks to select Kaminski while simultaneously trying to dump Zeller and Vonleh.

   

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 06:01:47 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 No man. There is plenty of evidence we were going to take Winslow, although I would have preferred Turner. Winslow was the Paul Pierce slider in the draft.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 06:02:38 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Didn't Ainge say they wanted to trade up because they were targeting one specific guy?  I know you can read that a few different ways but it sure sounded like the pick was being acquired to be used.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 06:12:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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By all reports, Ainge wanted Winslow.  You might not think he has superstar written on his face (personally I really wanted Stanley Johnson, but Winslow could be good as well), but apparently Ainge thought he was more valuable than all three players he ended up drafting when he couldn't make a deal.

In the past, Ainge has reportedly been similarly interested in Tyreke Evans, Harrison Barnes, and Joel Embiid, among others.  This year there was some talk he was also trying very hard to trade up for Jahlil Okafor, with no luck.  Make of that what you will.
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Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2015, 06:35:04 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Winslow could very well be the next Stacey Augmon. He only goes left, is undersized, and can't shoot. He also could overpower players on the college level, but not at this one.

I am really thankful that trade didn't go through. In essence it would've been:

Winslow

for

Rozier
Hunter + Mickey (assuming these picks would've been part of the Hawks trade to land the #15)
Nets 2016 1st rd pick (potential top 5 pick)
Grizzles pick in 2019 (per Ainge's comments below)


Quote
I think they were just determined to take a guy that they liked. I think that they may regret end up not doing it in some of the cases,” Ainge said. “I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected pick has great value.”

Quote
"Boston put Charlotte on the other end of a quantity-for-quality pitch," writes Lowe. "The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from No. 16 to No. 9: that 16th pick, No. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2015, 06:52:22 PM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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By all reports, Ainge wanted Winslow.  You might not think he has superstar written on his face (personally I really wanted Stanley Johnson, but Winslow could be good as well), but apparently Ainge thought he was more valuable than all three players he ended up drafting when he couldn't make a deal.

In the past, Ainge has reportedly been similarly interested in Tyreke Evans, Harrison Barnes, and Joel Embiid, among others.  This year there was some talk he was also trying very hard to trade up for Jahlil Okafor, with no luck.  Make of that what you will.

I've read those reports and wonder.  Danny's pretty good at blowing smoke out of his butt.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2015, 07:06:08 PM »

Online The Oracle

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Winslow could very well be the next Stacey Augmon. He only goes left, is undersized, and can't shoot. He also could overpower players on the college level, but not at this one.

I am really thankful that trade didn't go through. In essence it would've been:

Winslow

for

Rozier
Hunter + Mickey (assuming these picks would've been part of the Hawks trade to land the #15)
Nets 2016 1st rd pick (potential top 5 pick)
Grizzles pick in 2019 (per Ainge's comments below)


Quote
I think they were just determined to take a guy that they liked. I think that they may regret end up not doing it in some of the cases,” Ainge said. “I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected pick has great value.”

Quote
"Boston put Charlotte on the other end of a quantity-for-quality pitch," writes Lowe. "The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from No. 16 to No. 9: that 16th pick, No. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."
Did the Celtics also offer #15, #16, an unprotected Brooklyn 1st and the Grizzlies pick to Miami who chose Winslow at #10.  They should have if indeed they were after Winslow??  Did they also turn down that monster offer?  Chicago traded what #16 and #19 for #11 the year before.  That Brooklyn pick thrown in there screams there was something much bigger going on!

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2015, 07:10:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Winslow could very well be the next Stacey Augmon. He only goes left, is undersized, and can't shoot. He also could overpower players on the college level, but not at this one.

I am really thankful that trade didn't go through. In essence it would've been:

Winslow

for

Rozier
Hunter + Mickey (assuming these picks would've been part of the Hawks trade to land the #15)
Nets 2016 1st rd pick (potential top 5 pick)
Grizzles pick in 2019 (per Ainge's comments below)


Quote
I think they were just determined to take a guy that they liked. I think that they may regret end up not doing it in some of the cases,” Ainge said. “I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected pick has great value.”

Quote
"Boston put Charlotte on the other end of a quantity-for-quality pitch," writes Lowe. "The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from No. 16 to No. 9: that 16th pick, No. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

I'm guessing Ainge would've offered the 2018 Nets pick.  Has less value because the Nets will have cap space next summer to restock their team a bit.  This year is the best chance the Celts have of getting a really good pick out of the Nets.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2015, 07:26:00 PM »

Offline footey

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 No man. There is plenty of evidence we were going to take Winslow, although I would have preferred Turner. Winslow was the Paul Pierce slider in the draft.

Please show me one quote of anyone in Celtics organization saying they were going to draft Winslow.  I could not find any.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2015, 07:34:19 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Winslow could very well be the next Stacey Augmon. He only goes left, is undersized, and can't shoot. He also could overpower players on the college level, but not at this one.

I am really thankful that trade didn't go through. In essence it would've been:

Winslow

for

Rozier
Hunter + Mickey (assuming these picks would've been part of the Hawks trade to land the #15)
Nets 2016 1st rd pick (potential top 5 pick)
Grizzles pick in 2019 (per Ainge's comments below)


Quote
I think they were just determined to take a guy that they liked. I think that they may regret end up not doing it in some of the cases,” Ainge said. “I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected pick has great value.”

Quote
"Boston put Charlotte on the other end of a quantity-for-quality pitch," writes Lowe. "The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from No. 16 to No. 9: that 16th pick, No. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."
Did the Celtics also offer #15, #16, an unprotected Brooklyn 1st and the Grizzlies pick to Miami who chose Winslow at #10.  They should have if indeed they were after Winslow??  Did they also turn down that monster offer?  Chicago traded what #16 and #19 for #11 the year before.  That Brooklyn pick thrown in there screams there was something much bigger going on!

Yes, per reports.

This is Ira Winderman, Heat beat guy...very reputable

Quote
Based on the fact that Justise Winslow will be competing for the Miami Heat and Frank Kaminsky for the Charlotte Hornets at this week's Orlando summer league, we have yet to receive our answer.

In both cases, the teams were offered what appeared to be an unfathomable amount of draft choices by the Boston Celtics to move off their choice in the first round of the NBA draft.

What has been reported and confirmed is the package included four first-round picks and a pair of second-round picks. What the Hornets and Heat declined to delineate was precisely what picks.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2015, 07:41:54 PM »

Offline max215

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Whether you like Winslow or not, its pretty clear that he was the target. However, gven the legitimate causes for concern in Winslow's game and the extremely prohibitive price of moving up, I think we're pretty lucky that Michael Jordan is an idiot.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 07:57:10 PM by max215 »
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Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2015, 08:45:51 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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I agree that the inclusion of that Nets pick pushed the offer too far for me, but I would trade Rozier, Hunter, Mickey, the Memphis pick, and more for Winslow still.

I don't really get these "legitimate causes for concern." What is undersized? He's bigger than most of the slasher-types in the league. He gives up zero pounds and one inch to Jimmy Butler, but outreaches him by three. Since when can he not shoot? Winslow was a good shooter in college and a top notch finisher. A player's summer league and preseason stats don't rewrite his book.

Winslow has all-star written all over him and maybe more. Hornets fans and Knicks fans in particular are going to be crying about that draft for years.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2015, 09:04:41 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I agree that the inclusion of that Nets pick pushed the offer too far for me, but I would trade Rozier, Hunter, Mickey, the Memphis pick, and more for Winslow still.

I don't really get these "legitimate causes for concern." What is undersized? He's bigger than most of the slasher-types in the league. He gives up zero pounds and one inch to Jimmy Butler, but outreaches him by three. Since when can he not shoot? Winslow was a good shooter in college and a top notch finisher. A player's summer league and preseason stats don't rewrite his book.

Winslow has all-star written all over him and maybe more. Hornets fans and Knicks fans in particular are going to be crying about that draft for years.

Actually, that's been the knock on him for a long time. The quote below was prior to last season by Draft Express. His shooting looked better at Duke, but many felt that he benefited from the amount of attention Okafor received, which gave him a ton of open looks. He used his physicality to get the basket and finish, but that won't be as easy against the size of NBA wings he'll now be matched with. He also has no right hand at all in terms of ball handling, so that is another thing he'll have to improve on, especially as a 2. Could he be an all-star? Sure. But let's not act as though as that is "written all over him". There is a lot to like, but I lot to dislike too.

Before his collegiate season by D Express
Quote
He is very good in transition, and also a solid rebounder, even if his skill-level in the half-court, particularly his perimeter shooting ability, still needs a good amount of work.

After his collegiate season by D Express
Quote
Offensively, Winslow is not the most prolific scorer around, with his 17 points per-40 ranking towards the bottom among wing players in this draft, but he's efficient, with a 58% TS%, and also is a solid passer who rarely turns the ball over. He's excellent in transition, where he finds himself frequently with his aggressive style of play, and can also go down to the low post and punish opposing players with his strong frame. He is very intelligent operating off the ball, showing a great knack for being in the right place at the right time and making strong cuts to the rim when the opportunity presents itself.

While not the fanciest ball-handler, he can create a little off the dribble as well thanks to his quick first step, strong frame and incisive nature. Even though he's mostly a straight-line driver, he's developed his ability to operate at different speeds and will mix in some simple change of directions to keep defenders off-balance. He will often lower his shoulder and just bulldoze his way to the basket with pure strength, showing decent touch with either hand once he gets there, even if he's not the most vertically explosive guy around.

Winslow was considered a mediocre shooter coming into college, as he made just 26 of the 86 [30%] 3-pointers he attempted in 1900 minutes and 82 games in the many events (FIBA, EYBL, Adidas Nations, etc) he participated in prior to Duke that we have on record. He clearly put a lot of time into improving his shooting mechanics, and came into the year with a much more compact stroke than in the past, which resulted in him shooting 46/111 [41%] from beyond the arc as a freshman, a significant improvement.

He's mostly a catch and shoot guy who needs time and space to get his shot off, but that's nonetheless a very encouraging sign. The next step for him will be developing his ability to shoot off the dribble, where he struggles badly, only hitting 2 of 19 pull-ups on the season.

The biggest question marks about Winslow revolve around how prolific a scorer he will become at the NBA level. Is he better suited as being a third or fourth offensive option, or can he develop into someone who can shoulder a heavier load? Right now he's a little on the mechanical side and seems to struggle as a primary shot-creator, not being very effective in isolation or pick and roll situations, unless he has a slower footed power forward he can take advantage of on the perimeter. It's no surprise that his productivity fell off when playing alongside two non-shooting big men (Jefferson/Okafor) earlier in the season, before Duke started using smaller lineups more frequently.

His game relies heavily on power, which probably won't work quite as well in the NBA, where lowering your shoulder and bulldozing through the lane doesn't get the same results as it does in college. Developing his in-between game will help, as will quickening the speed of his release and showing he can translate his somewhat flat shot to the longer distances of the NBA 3-point line. The 64% he shot from the free throw line as a freshman indicates he still has work to do on his jumper.

Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2015, 12:03:53 AM »

Offline max215

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I agree that the inclusion of that Nets pick pushed the offer too far for me, but I would trade Rozier, Hunter, Mickey, the Memphis pick, and more for Winslow still.

I don't really get these "legitimate causes for concern." What is undersized? He's bigger than most of the slasher-types in the league. He gives up zero pounds and one inch to Jimmy Butler, but outreaches him by three. Since when can he not shoot? Winslow was a good shooter in college and a top notch finisher. A player's summer league and preseason stats don't rewrite his book.

Winslow has all-star written all over him and maybe more. Hornets fans and Knicks fans in particular are going to be crying about that draft for years.

Actually, that's been the knock on him for a long time. The quote below was prior to last season by Draft Express. His shooting looked better at Duke, but many felt that he benefited from the amount of attention Okafor received, which gave him a ton of open looks. He used his physicality to get the basket and finish, but that won't be as easy against the size of NBA wings he'll now be matched with. He also has no right hand at all in terms of ball handling, so that is another thing he'll have to improve on, especially as a 2. Could he be an all-star? Sure. But let's not act as though as that is "written all over him". There is a lot to like, but I lot to dislike too.

Before his collegiate season by D Express
Quote
He is very good in transition, and also a solid rebounder, even if his skill-level in the half-court, particularly his perimeter shooting ability, still needs a good amount of work.

After his collegiate season by D Express
Quote
Offensively, Winslow is not the most prolific scorer around, with his 17 points per-40 ranking towards the bottom among wing players in this draft, but he's efficient, with a 58% TS%, and also is a solid passer who rarely turns the ball over. He's excellent in transition, where he finds himself frequently with his aggressive style of play, and can also go down to the low post and punish opposing players with his strong frame. He is very intelligent operating off the ball, showing a great knack for being in the right place at the right time and making strong cuts to the rim when the opportunity presents itself.

While not the fanciest ball-handler, he can create a little off the dribble as well thanks to his quick first step, strong frame and incisive nature. Even though he's mostly a straight-line driver, he's developed his ability to operate at different speeds and will mix in some simple change of directions to keep defenders off-balance. He will often lower his shoulder and just bulldoze his way to the basket with pure strength, showing decent touch with either hand once he gets there, even if he's not the most vertically explosive guy around.

Winslow was considered a mediocre shooter coming into college, as he made just 26 of the 86 [30%] 3-pointers he attempted in 1900 minutes and 82 games in the many events (FIBA, EYBL, Adidas Nations, etc) he participated in prior to Duke that we have on record. He clearly put a lot of time into improving his shooting mechanics, and came into the year with a much more compact stroke than in the past, which resulted in him shooting 46/111 [41%] from beyond the arc as a freshman, a significant improvement.

He's mostly a catch and shoot guy who needs time and space to get his shot off, but that's nonetheless a very encouraging sign. The next step for him will be developing his ability to shoot off the dribble, where he struggles badly, only hitting 2 of 19 pull-ups on the season.

The biggest question marks about Winslow revolve around how prolific a scorer he will become at the NBA level. Is he better suited as being a third or fourth offensive option, or can he develop into someone who can shoulder a heavier load? Right now he's a little on the mechanical side and seems to struggle as a primary shot-creator, not being very effective in isolation or pick and roll situations, unless he has a slower footed power forward he can take advantage of on the perimeter. It's no surprise that his productivity fell off when playing alongside two non-shooting big men (Jefferson/Okafor) earlier in the season, before Duke started using smaller lineups more frequently.

His game relies heavily on power, which probably won't work quite as well in the NBA, where lowering your shoulder and bulldozing through the lane doesn't get the same results as it does in college. Developing his in-between game will help, as will quickening the speed of his release and showing he can translate his somewhat flat shot to the longer distances of the NBA 3-point line. The 64% he shot from the free throw line as a freshman indicates he still has work to do on his jumper.

Everything I was going to say in my response, TP.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

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Re: About the draft night trade with Charlotte that didn't happen.
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2015, 12:32:40 AM »

Offline MBunge

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The more times I see what we offered Charlotte, the more astonished I am they turned us down.  It made sense that Miami wouldn't be interested.  With that team, they're still looking to win know.  But Charlotte has been a bad team for years and, looking at their talent in the best possible light, they might develop into a team that fights for the 5th or 6th seed in the playoffs.

Ainge was offering them a chance to hugely increase their stockpile of assets, giving them a much better chance at making the moves they need to make to become a legitimate contender.  And they passed that up for a guy who might never be more than a stretch big off the bench?

Mike