Whose rebuild is better? BOS vs LAL

[hpantazo]

I don't think Russell is such a good prospect that he trumps all the C's current and future assets.

He has not shown one sign of being a dominant player and looks more like a system guy, so far.   If I was LA I would be nervous, sure he is a rookie and all but should not he look good against other rookies?

I wouldn't go that far he's definitely a great prospect, just not a sell the farm type of prospect.

I would honestly much rather have Smart than Russell, and I think many GMs would as well. Smart is set for a breakout season. He just takes over a game on both ends of the floor.

I think the Lakers made two major mistakes in their rebuild. #1: they kept Kobe and signed him to a big contract , which not only hampered their cap, and hurt the development of other guys, but prevented them from getting value for him in a trade like the Celtics did with KG and Pierce.

#2: passing up Okafor to take Russell will haunt them for years. I think they did so because they thought they were going to be able to trade for Cousins and/or sign Aldridge or Love to compete now with Kobe, but it was a very dumb move.

Haven't followed Russell at all but I'm not sure Smart will ever take over on both ends of the floor, much less do it this year.  From what I see he remains a below average offensive player and I believe this limitation will stay with him throughout his career.

Well, be prepared to have Smart prove you wrong very soon. He's a very different player this year than last season. His ability to get to the free throw line alone will allow him to take over on the offensive end. We haven't had a guy that gets to the line like he does since Pierce.

[LarBrd33]

We'll have to revisit this at some point.  Boston is closer to winning games right now, but Russell and Randle (yes Randle) both might be better long-term than our lone player with star potential (Smart). 

Our picks could make a big difference, though if Brooklyn and Dallas suck.

I think you have to give it to Boston right now.   Keep an eye on the Smart vs Randle debate, though.   A lot of folks liked Randle more before the draft.  I was one of them.  I got why we took Smart though... already had PF's and Rondo was on his way out.   Ainge himself has admitted that Randle had more talent, but he went with Smart, because he seemed to have the kind of mentality/drive that could turn an ok player into a great one.  For the past year, it's been a pretty one-sided argument with everyone unanimously believing Smart to be the better choice.   That debate isn't over.   Randle looks sensational in what I've seen so far.

[LarBrd33]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

[jpotter33]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

I've never been able to understand your over-positive nature with regards to other teams' players, especially Randle, when you have such a pessimistic view of our own players. There is not a single justifiable argument you can make right now that Randle is a better prospect than Smart.

[DarkAzcura]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

I've never been able to understand your over-positive nature with regards to other teams' players, especially Randle, when you have such a pessimistic view of our own players. There is not a single justifiable argument you can make right now that Randle is a better prospect than Smart.

Yeah, if we had Randle and they had Smart, I'm sure he'd be saying the same things in reverse just in positive for Smart. I've never understood it either. Great example of grass is always greener on the other side mentality.

Two good games in preseason for another team's player: "Looks like the comments from Kobe, Hibbert, etc were legit. This kid is going to be awesome!!!!"

Two good games for a Celtic: "meh, he was probably just lucky because of the competition. Small sample size, etc."

Don't get me wrong, Randle is probably going to be a nice player. But the logic isn't consistent. The same rules apparently don't apply for Celtic players as they do for other team's players.

[Csfan1984]

C's due to future draft picks, very tradable players, equally promising players and coach. It's not even close.

[BDeCosta26]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

I've never been able to understand your over-positive nature with regards to other teams' players, especially Randle, when you have such a pessimistic view of our own players. There is not a single justifiable argument you can make right now that Randle is a better prospect than Smart.

He's LarBird. There doesn't have to be, he's gonna say it anyway.

I don't really see how a legit argument can be made that LA has had a better rebuild so far just because they have Randle and Russell. Boston has Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Young, Rozier, Mickey and Hunter. Just because a guy was picked #2 overall means very little until he proves worthy of that selection. And I wouldn't be sure of that happening. Kids a great passer, but he can't defend and reminds me a lot of our own Evan Turner. It really wouldn't surprise me if Rozier or Smart has a better career than him.

Besides, saying LA has had a better rebuild purely on "high end talent" completely ignores every other major aspect in a rebuild process. We have a 100 times better coach, a much better GM, better ownership group, more tradeable players, an established culture guys are clearly buying in to. Hell, LA doesn't even own it's own pick this year. Boston owns all of it's own picks, plus what's likely to be two additional lottery picks just this year alone. If you made a list of the best 10 players on either team right now, probably 7 or 8 of them would be Celtics.

Star players are obviously a key component to a successful rebuild, but it's not the ONLY thing. Boston leads LA in EVERY other category, and until I see real signs that Russell or Randle is a star prospect, I'm not gonna say they have more "high end talent" either.

[colincb]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

Basically Cousins for Randle and trash.  This is worse than your proposed trade for Anthony Bennett in exchange for our 16th pick this year. Randle fell to the Lakers for a reason and it wasn't just his defense. Needs another move other than a dunk just to get by on that side of the ball.  He's not making a living solely at the hoop as a PF,  Defense is another big problem. In any case, here's the last DraftXpress writeup:

Julius Randle's situational statistics are probably a little bit different than most would expect. While 20.9% of his offense coming from post-ups is far from an insignificant amount, it ranks as only average in this group, as does the 0.79 points per possession he generated in these instances. While a little bit of improvement in Kentucky's floor spacing could have opened up the paint a little bit more for Randle and helped improve this number some, further refinement of his skills and becoming more comfortable using his right hand will be needed in the future as well. The 39.3% he shot on post-up opportunities was well below average among power forwards we looked at, although the overall efficiency was buoyed by his ability to draw contact and get to the line, as he drew shooting fouls on 26.2% of his post-up possessions, one of the better rates among this group.

Where Randle was most dominant was on the offensive glass. The 2.4 possessions per game Randle generated off of put back attempts was the second best in this group among players that we currently project to be drafted, only slightly behind Khem Birch's 2.7 possessions per game, and the 1.21 points per possession Randle scored off of these created opportunities was the third best in the group. Randle's high volume and efficiency in put back situations resulted in 114 points for the Wildcats last season, one of the top marks in the entire country among all players, prospect or not.

Another area where Randle showed potential was as an isolation threat, as the only collegiate prospect among this group who used more possessions per game in isolation situations than Randle was Dwight Powell. While his efficiency wasn't all that great at 0.76 points per possession -- hurt somewhat by turnovers, predictability due to an unrefined right hand, and by not being much of a threat shooting away from the basket -- should Randle improve in any or all of these areas, he will have a quickness advantage against most of his defenders at the next level, and could really expand this part of his game.

Jump shooting is another area of his game that stands out, as he shot only 17.3% on jump shots logged by Synergy, with the 0.40 points per possession he scored on those attempts being the lowest mark in this power forward class. He didn't attempt very many at only 1.3 shots per game, but him being a complete lack of a threat outside of the paint is something that is currently holding his game back. His free throw shooting (70.6% on 289 attempts) gives some optimism for the future, but that didn't translate in live ball situations last year at Kentucky.

[max215]

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.

Smart > Randle
Lee > Hibbert

That's how easily we could top that offer. From what I've seen so far, the defensive flaws are absolutely glaring; Randle has a legitimate shot at grading out as the worst defensive player in the league. Also, how can you cite preseason as evidence of Randle's beastliness when you created a thread warning Celtics fans not to read into the preseason?

Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.

They're his teammates, what are they supposed to say? Isaiah calls himself a superstar; is Isaiah a superstar? Everyone at our camp has spoken incredibly highly of Rozier; could Rozier be the central piece of a trade for a superstar? Realistically, is Randle strong enough to bully Western Conference PFs like ZBo down low though?


I'm sorry, but I'll just never understand your Randle fascination. I just don't see what's so special about this guy. He's slightly undersized with good--not great--measurables. He doesn't impose his will offensively, and he's a saloon door on defense. Additionally, you must take into account the fact that he couldn't make it through a single NBA game without getting injured. I guess we won't know for at least a few more years, but I just don't understand how anyone could be so high on Randle.

[Denis998]

I wouldn't call LAL's thing they are doing a rebuild. You need some sort of structure for a rebuild

[MJohnnyboy]

I wouldn't call LAL's thing they are doing a rebuild. You need some sort of structure for a rebuild

TP

[LarBrd33]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

I've never been able to understand your over-positive nature with regards to other teams' players, especially Randle, when you have such a pessimistic view of our own players. There is not a single justifiable argument you can make right now that Randle is a better prospect than Smart.

Yeah, if we had Randle and they had Smart, I'm sure he'd be saying the same things in reverse just in positive for Smart. I've never understood it either. Great example of grass is always greener on the other side mentality.

Two good games in preseason for another team's player: "Looks like the comments from Kobe, Hibbert, etc were legit. This kid is going to be awesome!!!!"

Two good games for a Celtic: "meh, he was probably just lucky because of the competition. Small sample size, etc."

Don't get me wrong, Randle is probably going to be a nice player. But the logic isn't consistent. The same rules apparently don't apply for Celtic players as they do for other team's players.

I acknowledged that Smart is the only player on this team with possible star potential.  I acknowledged that over the past year, everyone has unanimously agreed that Smart is the better prospect.   I also acknowledged that Boston is probably ahead in the rebuild.   What more do you want than that?

I'm just saying that you should keep an eye on the Smart vs Randle debate, cuz it aint over.  Randle is legit.  And there's a chance that both Russel and Randle end up better than anyone on our team.

[Moranis]

Russell could be the centerpiece of a trade for someone like Cousins, no one on Boston even comes close to that level.   

Sacramento would be more likely to trade Cousins for Smart and Sully than for Russell and anyone else on the Lakers' roster.  Granted, it would be a 0.1% chance instead of a 0.01% chance.

Mike

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.   Everyone has basically gone out of their way to praise that guy.   Kobe recently said he was "Lamar Odom inside Zach Randolph's body).  Hibbert said he was clearly one of the future faces of the NBA.   Everyone has unanimously agreed that Randle is insanely strong.  They could just be supportive teammates, but over the last couple games you can see what they are talking about.  Kid is a beast.   

So it might come down to whether or not the Lakers are comfortable with moving Randle.   From the Kings standpoint, it would make sense.  Willie-Cauley Stein is a center.  Pairing him with a powerforward like Randle theoretically makes some sense long-term.   Kings also seem pretty set on guards.   

My guess is that if Cousins is traded, it's to the Lakers and Randle is the key piece.

I've never been able to understand your over-positive nature with regards to other teams' players, especially Randle, when you have such a pessimistic view of our own players. There is not a single justifiable argument you can make right now that Randle is a better prospect than Smart.

He's LarBird. There doesn't have to be, he's gonna say it anyway.

I don't really see how a legit argument can be made that LA has had a better rebuild so far just because they have Randle and Russell. Boston has Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Young, Rozier, Mickey and Hunter. Just because a guy was picked #2 overall means very little until he proves worthy of that selection. And I wouldn't be sure of that happening. Kids a great passer, but he can't defend and reminds me a lot of our own Evan Turner. It really wouldn't surprise me if Rozier or Smart has a better career than him.

Besides, saying LA has had a better rebuild purely on "high end talent" completely ignores every other major aspect in a rebuild process. We have a 100 times better coach, a much better GM, better ownership group, more tradeable players, an established culture guys are clearly buying in to. Hell, LA doesn't even own it's own pick this year. Boston owns all of it's own picks, plus what's likely to be two additional lottery picks just this year alone. If you made a list of the best 10 players on either team right now, probably 7 or 8 of them would be Celtics.

Star players are obviously a key component to a successful rebuild, but it's not the ONLY thing. Boston leads LA in EVERY other category, and until I see real signs that Russell or Randle is a star prospect, I'm not gonna say they have more "high end talent" either.

Rozier, Hunter, Mickey?

I mean at least use guys who have played in the league and you have to include guys like Clarkson from LA, who you know had a pretty darn good rookie year last year (and you know who made the All Rookie 1st team ahead of Smart).  The Lakers also have Nance, Upshaw, Holmes, Frazier, and Brown as rookies.  We love our rookies, so do they.

As for things like tradeable players, I don't really find that to be all that true, unless you are talking about trading players for things like 2nd round picks.  Then sure, Boston has more of those. 

Boston has a lot more future draft picks.  Many of those could certainly hit and hit big, or they might not.  Until those picks hit though, LA has more high value young players than Boston does.

[Moranis]

I wouldn't call LAL's thing they are doing a rebuild. You need some sort of structure for a rebuild

Now that is pretty funny.  That said, LA won 21 games last year and has basically added Kobe, Hibbert, Bass, Lou Williams, Randle, and Russell to the rotation while losing Carlos Boozer, Jordan Hill, Jeremy Lin, Wesley Johnson, Ed Davis, and Wayne Ellington.  I'd say that is a major positive improvement, wouldn't you?

[LarBrd33]

I think if you see a Cousins trade, it could be for Randle + Hibbert (I think Hibbert has a 1 year 15 mil deal that makes it work financially).   From what I've seen of Randle so far (and it's still very early), the kid looks legit and his defensive "flaws" may in fact be overblown.

I'm sorry, but I'll just never understand your Randle fascination.

Well I think going into the draft there was a bit of a consensus (even from the Celtics) that Randle was the more talented prospect.  There remains people who believe Randle will be a 20/10 guy.  You clearly don't understand that.  It's fine if you don't understand it.  I'm just saying we will need to revisit this at some point.  This is a fluid situation.  A few months from now, you might understand it... or maybe he'll look like crap.

I'll say that in a very small irrelevant sample size over the past two games, he does seem to be a force offensively, a force on the glass and a potential impact defender.   You apparently think it's impossible that the 20 year old develops into a better basketball player than Marcus Smart.   I don't think it's impossible.

I didn't expect to see a kid with his size/strength taking the ball up the court the way he has over the past two games.  I'm rather surprised by his handles, passing and court awareness... it's something to keep an eye on.  Last two games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp9tESYuPc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5HImQQHKgk

And I wouldn't rule out seeing him as the focus of a Cousins trade.