I think the Celtics are better than last year's Hawks team

[chambers]

Good old triboy. Your post/topic is the definition of being a 'homer', but you just have so much faith that I can't completely hate you.

In regards to the topic, if we have a GREAT season from our own merits we'll finish in the top 6 in the East. If we get very lucky and multiple teams suffered key injuries to multiple players then we may even fluke our way into the top 4. (Bulls has Noah+Gasol get hurt, Miami loses Dragic+Bosh).

The 2014 Hawks we are definitely not.
No All Stars, a 2nd year starting PG and a few young veterans.
No key rim protector and basically relying on a crumbling Amir Johnson with two baaaaad ankles to be our 'enforcer' really can't compare to Horford.
We don't have any 45% 3 point shooters either.
It's just a bit too early to expect so much from such a young team.
Our two best 'career' big men are past their prime, particularly Amir.
Our 6th man may be the closest thing we have to an All Star and he's a completely offensive player.
We are 2 All Stars away from being a Hawks caliber team.

I will say I admire your outlook.
Triboy would you be willing to bet all your TP's for it?

Didn't you say this team had no chance in hell to make the playoffs last season? And it was not only you.  Oh we will be gunning for Towns etc.  With rondo in the lineup I believed this fate will come true also. But thank the lord once he was traded plus getting IT , I knew we had a fighting chance to make it

I think the circumstances changed last season and yes, acquiring IT certainly (in my opinion) was the main reason for making the playoffs. Injuries to other teams played a large part too.
We got extremely lucky and Danny Ainge openly stated that making the playoffs wasn't a mission for last year. Brad Stevens ruined his plans.

I just don't think we have enough star power. It's not like the Hawks have superstars, but they have multiple bench level All Stars and veteran experience.
Maybe in Smart's 4th year he may be on Teague's level. Lee is like Millsap but who is our Horford and Rim protector? Who is our Korver? Crowder is our Carroll and he's got great potential but he's not there yet.

So yeah, we could be called the Hawks 'lite' because of our style of play that relies on the whole team contributing, but we don't have a whole team of very good players. We have a whole team of good players and decent players who are developing.

You know why we won't be better than the 2014-15 Hawks? The Hawks 3 best players are better than anyone on our team and their 4th and 5th best players  (Carroll+Korver) were about as good as Isaiah Thomas if not slightly better.
Hope that makes sense.

You didn't answer my question about betting TP's on it lol.

I just think calling us 'better than last year's Hawks' is putting too much pressure and expectation on a young team right now. We are just so much younger and inexperienced vs last years Hawks and missing crucial pieces.

I think finishing in the top 6 in the East is a realistic goal that would be a great outcome for our young team.

[Celtics18]

I'll take "better than last year's Celtics."  Anything on top of that would be gravy. 

[Tr1boy]

I'll take "better than last year's Celtics."  Anything on top of that would be gravy.

It's not out of question we are one of the top 4 teams from the east. I'm not scared of anyone except the Cavs.

What we know is as long as this lineup is healthy we are going to end up better than 7th place. 

I predict 4th.  I will gladly meet the hawks in the playoffs and will have confidence we could beat them

[DavorCroatiaFan]

After we get rid of Rondo and Green and we added Crowder, Thomas and Jerebko our record in last 36 games were 24-12. Hawks were 22-14. We beat them in only head to head matchup on Evan Turner buzzer beater without Isaiah.
For me, Hawks 2014/15 are the worse 60 win team in NBA history.
I believe that in May we were East second best team. If we played anybody else but Cavs, we would be playing alot longer.
We played full Cavs team with LeBron (4 games), Irving (4 games) and Love (3 1/4 games) and were competitive.
Hawks played Cavs team with Lebron, no Love and hobbled Irving (played 48 mins in series) and still were getting destroyed 30 points in elimination game.
I really believe that last year we could beat Hawks in playoff. And this year team is more mature. David Lee and Amir Johnson are great additions. Thomas is here from the start. We are much better this year...and i think better than last year Hawks. I'm not saying we will make 60 wins, but we will kick Hawks ass this year

[Smitty77]

Good old triboy. Your post/topic is the definition of being a 'homer', but you just have so much faith that I can't completely hate you.

In regards to the topic, if we have a GREAT season from our own merits we'll finish in the top 6 in the East. If we get very lucky and multiple teams suffered key injuries to multiple players then we may even fluke our way into the top 4. (Bulls has Noah+Gasol get hurt, Miami loses Dragic+Bosh).

The 2014 Hawks we are definitely not.
No All Stars, a 2nd year starting PG and a few young veterans.
No key rim protector and basically relying on a crumbling Amir Johnson with two baaaaad ankles to be our 'enforcer' really can't compare to Horford.
We don't have any 45% 3 point shooters either.
It's just a bit too early to expect so much from such a young team.
Our two best 'career' big men are past their prime, particularly Amir.
Our 6th man may be the closest thing we have to an All Star and he's a completely offensive player.
We are 2 All Stars away from being a Hawks caliber team.

I will say I admire your outlook.
Triboy would you be willing to bet all your TP's for it?

The Hawks really had NO true rim protection.  Horford is a solid PF playing OUT of position at C!!  Also, Horford only blocked 1.29 shots per game last year and he was their leading shot blocker.  No one else averaged more than 1 block per game.

I agree with most everything else you stated however!!

Smitty77

[Moranis]

I'll take "better than last year's Celtics."  Anything on top of that would be gravy.

It's not out of question we are one of the top 4 teams from the east. I'm not scared of anyone except the Cavs.

What we know is as long as this lineup is healthy we are going to end up better than 7th place. 

I predict 4th.  I will gladly meet the hawks in the playoffs and will have confidence we could beat them

So you think Boston will finish 4th yet you created a thread saying they would be better than a team that won 60 games, finished 1st in the conference and made the ECF. 

Why the hell did you create a thread that you didn't even believe?

[JBcat]

I agree with much of what is being said here that we won't be as good as the Hawks were last year.

However I think the Hawks have peaked and have played as well as they possibly can while we are still a developing team.  Korver, Milsap, Hortford, and Teague are ages 34, 30, 29, and 27 respectively.  They may have few years left at this level while never being a true contender.  I don't recall them having to deal with injuries last year, and everything seemed to go right for the regular season.  As this core gets into its 30s injuries may pile up.  Korver basically had a career year, and how much longer can he keep that up.  Plus Carroll was huge for them last year at SF.  That position is a question mark for them now.

They don't seem to have much in terms of younger developing talent or future assets where we have that in spades.  I would not be surprised in 2 or 3 years we are better than them, but I do think it's unlikely we will be now.

[Tr1boy]

After we get rid of Rondo and Green and we added Crowder, Thomas and Jerebko our record in last 36 games were 24-12. Hawks were 22-14. We beat them in only head to head matchup on Evan Turner buzzer beater without Isaiah.
For me, Hawks 2014/15 are the worse 60 win team in NBA history.
I believe that in May we were East second best team. If we played anybody else but Cavs, we would be playing alot longer.
We played full Cavs team with LeBron (4 games), Irving (4 games) and Love (3 1/4 games) and were competitive.
Hawks played Cavs team with Lebron, no Love and hobbled Irving (played 48 mins in series) and still were getting destroyed 30 points in elimination game.
I really believe that last year we could beat Hawks in playoff. And this year team is more mature. David Lee and Amir Johnson are great additions. Thomas is here from the start. We are much better this year...and i think better than last year Hawks. I'm not saying we will make 60 wins, but we will kick Hawks ass this year

This is what I'm talking about

[DarkAzcura]

I don't think we can be better than last year's Hawks, and I consider myself a pretty optimistic fan. The biggest reason we can't be them is that we don't have an Al Horford. Generally speaking, and it's seen throughout this thread, talents like Korver, Teague, and Millsap have become pretty overrated. They didn't make the all star team because they are can't miss talents that our current crop has no chance of surpassing. They made it to the game because of team success and a great system. Al Horford is their only "true" all star talent win or lose, and that is something we are missing in our frontcourt that is needed. Guys like Smart, Olynyk, IT, Bradley, Sullinger, etc have the talent to match and even surpass dudes like Korver, Teague, and Millsap. I'd argue IT is already a far greater talent than Teague at this moment anyway. I'm not worried about that so it's always interesting to see people citing those three "all-stars" as reasons why we can't play up to the Hawks level.

If the Celtics keep up a 45-50 win pace through January, they will most likely have 1 all star in the game and quite possible even 2 with that kind of pace. It's how the game works. You win, and all star selections will come. Keep up the pace they played at last half of last season, and we "magically" go from a team with supposedly no talent to a team with a couple all stars, lol.

TLDR: It's all about Horford. We don't have that kind of player unfortunately, but I do think we can be much better than most think.

[slamtheking]

I'll take "better than last year's Celtics."  Anything on top of that would be gravy.

It's not out of question we are one of the top 4 teams from the east. I'm not scared of anyone except the Cavs.

out of the question?  no.  miracles can happen. 
Likely?  no.  just no.  We finished 7th last year under .500. 
There were 6 teams that had a better season than us.  Which of those teams suddenly became worse than us?  none.
Miami (at this point) has a starting line-up of legitimate starting talent that's far superior to any combination we put on the floor. 
There's no reason to expect the C's to be better than them.
Indy gets Paul George back and added Monta Ellis.  2 guys that can score down the stretch and both better than anyone we have.  they'll be fighting for that 8th spot with us. 

Granted the season has to play out but since we can only make paper comparisons right now, C's will be in a dogfight to make the playoffs this year.

What we know is as long as this lineup is healthy we are going to end up better than 7th place. 

no, we dont know it.   you are assuming it. 
it's one thing to look at how the C's performed at the end of last year and look only at what the C's did in the offseason but you don't seem to be taking into account how the other teams in the conference played and their offseasons.  Without rehashing the teams I mentioned above, the rest of the conference improved as well.
- Knicks get back Melo and added Afflalo and Lopez.  they won't contend for the playoffs but they're better than last year.
- Detroit and Charlotte shuffled their rosters a bit to improve chemistry in the lockerroom and on the court.  probably won't contend for the playoffs but they could be better than last year depending on how the changes work out for them
- Orlando - has more top young talent that could make a leap this year and the youth is better balanced in terms of the positions
they play.  They should be better this year.
- Philly - still a dumpster fire and the top asset they acquired plays the same position as their top player from last year.   They still stink but they added some talent.

I predict 4th.  I will gladly meet the hawks in the playoffs and will have confidence we could beat them

very optimistic and I would love nothing better than for the team to exceed your expectations but I just don't see how it's based on anything more than blind faith more than anything approaching a realistic review of the team in comparison to the other teams in the conference (never mind the league in general).

[DarkAzcura]

EDIT: nevermind.

very optimistic and I would love nothing better than for the team to exceed your expectations but I just don't see how it's based on anything more than blind faith more than anything approaching a realistic review of the team in comparison to the other teams in the conference (never mind the league in general).

I think the issue is how you are evaluating the team. You shouldn't be comparing the rosters throughout the East and coming to a conclusion that way, imo. You need to look at their actual performances. For example, Miami has all the talent in the world, but they could just as easily fall apart and not have the drive to win. They were barely skirting .500 with Wade and Bosh healthy earlier in the season. Why are we so confident they will actually perform honestly? Chicago lost the best defensive mind in the game, and they are by far a defensive team first. Will they recover from this? The Bucks added a big man who can't shoot to a team that is already void of 3PT shooting. Their offense might be even worse than last year, and they fell apart after trading Knight anyway. I don't see any reason in being so confidence that they will simply be ahead of the Celtics just because they were last season. The questions go on and on for almost any team. Through all the question marks about the Celtics talent, they went out there, didn't make excuses, and blew through teams over the last ~40 games. I got respect for a team that didn't fall apart in the face of adversity like the Heat, Bucks, Indiana, etc did throughout the season.

I think triboy is overly optimistic even if I agree with the general viewpoint, but I kinda scratch my head when more pessimistic posters make paper comparisons between rosters and act like there aren't a ton of questions about those teams. You ask for him to give a realistic viewpoint of the roster, and I don't see how he isn't doing that? Fact of the matter is the Celtics went out there, played their butts off, and went 24-12 which is close to half the season with the current roster. Their overall 40 win record is not what this team is, and using that as a frame of argument is a little disingenuous and ignores the circumstances this team played through throughout the season.

Anyway, a 24-12 record is a 55 win pace. Now if you are asking me if I think they can win 55 games over 82, I'd say hell no. But at the same time for the Celtics to fall out of the playoffs, you have to ask how will that happen? Well they have to drop from a 55 win pace to a mid 30 wins pace. Now forget about Miami, the Bucks, or whoever was in front of us or behind us. The question you should be asking is..is it reasonable for a team that was on a 55 win pace to drop back to the mid 30s with the same roster coming back but a year older with more experience? I think ignoring this factor and calling someone a homer or saying someone is not giving a realistic view of the roster is the person actually not looking at the roster realistically. It's completely unreasonable to expect this team to drop in 20 wins in terms of pace. It may happen because of unforeseen injuries or trades, but to expect it is just not reasonable. It's more reasonable to expect them to fall to a mid 40s win pace considering their point differential over the ~40 games, which isn't fighting for the playoffs. In the East, mid 40s is pretty much an automatic bid regardless of the viewpoint of other teams' rosters and their potential performance.

[slamtheking]

EDIT: nevermind.

very optimistic and I would love nothing better than for the team to exceed your expectations but I just don't see how it's based on anything more than blind faith more than anything approaching a realistic review of the team in comparison to the other teams in the conference (never mind the league in general).

I think the issue is how you are evaluating the team. I think triboy is overly optimistic even if I agree with the general viewpoint, but I kinda scratch my head when more pessimistic posters make paper comparisons between rosters and act like there aren't a ton of questions about those teams. You ask for him to give a realistic viewpoint of the roster, and I don't see how he isn't doing that? Fact of the matter is the Celtics went out there, played their butts off, and went 24-12 which is close to half the season with the current roster. Their overall 40 win record is not what this team is, and using that as a frame of argument is a little disingenuous and ignores the circumstances this team played through throughout the season.

Anyway, a 24-12 record is a 55 win pace. Now if you are asking me if I think they can win 55 games over 82, I'd say hell no. But at the same time for the Celtics to fall out of the playoffs, you have to ask how will that happen? Well they have to drop from a 55 win pace to a mid 30 wins pace. Now forget about Miami, the Bucks, or whoever was in front of us or behind us. The question you should be asking is..is it reasonable for a team that was on a 55 win pace to drop back to the mid 30s with the same roster coming back but a year older with more experience? I think ignoring this factor and calling someone a homer or saying someone is not giving a realistic view of the roster is the person actually not looking at the roster realistically. It's completely unreasonable to expect this team to drop in 20 wins in terms of pace. It's more reasonable to expect then to fall to a mid 40s win pace, which isn't fighting for the playoffs. In the East, mid 40s is pretty much in automatic bid.

I'm not calling him a homer or any other name.  just stating it's an overly optimistic appraisal of this team.

you agree that a 55-win pace is unrealistic or at least unlikely.  That's what I'm saying.

I'm also taking into consideration what's going on with the rest of the team in the conference.  how can you not?  While we did upgrade in overall talent, it was 2 more PFs which was not a position we really needed to solidify. 

The other teams that made the playoffs in slots 1-6 are still good teams if not a little better.  Miami really got better.  Indy does get a couple of good players for this year but lost their starting frontcourt.  The rest of the teams in the conference got better or at least didn't slide backward. 

I'm not saying they'll drop to around 35 wins.  I think getting 40 again this year will be an achievement based on the rest of the conference.  I'd love to be completely off on this.

[DarkAzcura]

EDIT: nevermind.

very optimistic and I would love nothing better than for the team to exceed your expectations but I just don't see how it's based on anything more than blind faith more than anything approaching a realistic review of the team in comparison to the other teams in the conference (never mind the league in general).

I think the issue is how you are evaluating the team. I think triboy is overly optimistic even if I agree with the general viewpoint, but I kinda scratch my head when more pessimistic posters make paper comparisons between rosters and act like there aren't a ton of questions about those teams. You ask for him to give a realistic viewpoint of the roster, and I don't see how he isn't doing that? Fact of the matter is the Celtics went out there, played their butts off, and went 24-12 which is close to half the season with the current roster. Their overall 40 win record is not what this team is, and using that as a frame of argument is a little disingenuous and ignores the circumstances this team played through throughout the season.

Anyway, a 24-12 record is a 55 win pace. Now if you are asking me if I think they can win 55 games over 82, I'd say hell no. But at the same time for the Celtics to fall out of the playoffs, you have to ask how will that happen? Well they have to drop from a 55 win pace to a mid 30 wins pace. Now forget about Miami, the Bucks, or whoever was in front of us or behind us. The question you should be asking is..is it reasonable for a team that was on a 55 win pace to drop back to the mid 30s with the same roster coming back but a year older with more experience? I think ignoring this factor and calling someone a homer or saying someone is not giving a realistic view of the roster is the person actually not looking at the roster realistically. It's completely unreasonable to expect this team to drop in 20 wins in terms of pace. It's more reasonable to expect then to fall to a mid 40s win pace, which isn't fighting for the playoffs. In the East, mid 40s is pretty much in automatic bid.

I'm not calling him a homer or any other name.  just stating it's an overly optimistic appraisal of this team.

you agree that a 55-win pace is unrealistic or at least unlikely.  That's what I'm saying.

I'm also taking into consideration what's going on with the rest of the team in the conference.  how can you not?  While we did upgrade in overall talent, it was 2 more PFs which was not a position we really needed to solidify. 

The other teams that made the playoffs in slots 1-6 are still good teams if not a little better.  Miami really got better.  Indy does get a couple of good players for this year but lost their starting frontcourt.  The rest of the teams in the conference got better or at least didn't slide backward. 

I'm not saying they'll drop to around 35 wins.  I think getting 40 again this year will be an achievement based on the rest of the conference.  I'd love to be completely off on this.

Fair enough, but I disagree that the teams in front of the Cs (the 6) stayed the same or improved.

Chicago > lost Thibs. They are 100% a defensive minded team that added a coach who is primarily a fast pace offensive coach. This could blow up in their face pretty badly, but I give them the benefit of the doubt because of their overall talent.

Bucks > They could be good, but they fell apart after trading Knight because he was their only shooter. They were one of the best defensive teams in the league last year, but their biggest addition was a defensively averse big man who can't shoot and struggles to perform in the post without 3PT shooters around him. Hey it could work out somehow, but I think Monroe is a terrible fit for them.

Heat > Wade already misses 20-30 games a year it seems now, and he's only getting older. They have good talent on paper, but I couldn't shake the feeling that they were like the 12-13 Celtics. Older players who struggled to play 100% day in, day out because they feel the regular season isn't important. Unfortunately they don't have the overall talent to simply slide through the regular season without trying. Heat fans continually hated the way they played last year because they lacked passion and fire. It was an issue just like it was an issue for Rondo and this team for years.

Toronto > Lost their best big man defender, and they already struggle enough defensively. Amir was one of their big impact players by +/- so I have no idea what will happen.

Washington > Wiz fans were already hating on Nene and how much he was aging last year. They have Wall/Beal, but Pierce was huge for them in terms of leadership and played a large role in keeping Wall's head in the game I heard from their fans. Let's see how they do with an aging frontcourt and without Pierce's leadership.

I admit all of these teams can perform similarly, but it's not as much a shoe in as a lot think. That's all I'm saying.

[Celtics4ever]

Don't forget INDY if Pau George is healthy. 

Heat fans continually hated the way they played last year because they lacked passion and fire. It was an issue just like it was an issue for Rondo and this team for years.

Is this a joke, because the leave early heat fans are some of the least passionate I have ever seen.

[SHAQATTACK]

Don't know if they are better per say......but no doubt the Celtics can be their equal on any given night and can beat them .

Pretty much the the Cavs are better than everybody else ....because of one player.   Take him out of the equation and the East is up for grabs .

This will be more true every year , as LeBron gets older .....another 7 teams close in on him.

for Cavs not winning a title this year would be a HUGE HUGE letdown .