Poll

Better player when healthy Sullinger out Lee

David Lee
35 (70%)
Sullinger
7 (14%)
Popeye Jones
8 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully  (Read 5700 times)

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Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2015, 10:40:32 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Sullinger plays defense like he's playing a half court pick up game. He barely moves.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2015, 10:44:34 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Sullinger plays defense like he's playing a half court pick up game. He barely moves.

That's true, and it's another thing that I was unimpressed with today.  Hopefully it's just preseason conditioning issues, but I felt Sully was the worst big on the court defensively.

Lee has a reputation for being a terrible defensive player, but he actually looked ok out there tonight.  By no means is he DeAndre jordan 2.0, but he was pretty effective at playing good positional defense, moving his feet, and being in the right place at the right time.

I actually really liked Olynyk's defense as well.  For a guy who doesn't move that quickly, he always impresses me with his tendency to beat opponents to where they're trying to go.  I think it's partly due to his size, partly due to him being more mobile than he looks, and mostly just due to great IQ/anticipation. 

For two guys who aren't especially long or athletic, I thought Olynyk and Lee both did a prety good job defensively.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2015, 11:25:30 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The question is, 'if healthy' and I am going to take that as meaning in shape as well. Moving forward, there is no doubt I would rather have a healthy/in shape Sully on my team than David Lee. With Lee's age, he can really only go down from here.

Trust me, I am as frustrated as anybody with Sully's lack of devotion to his diet and cardio, but I think they are probably about even right now (if in shape) with Sully taking the lead in years to come...unfortunately, I am not sure we ever see an in shape Sully.
When talking about Sully being 'in shape', I think our ceiling should be no higher than the best conditioning he has shown so far. I do not believe in hypothesizing how good players with weight problems could be if they resolved that issue.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2015, 11:27:58 PM »

Offline chambers

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At this stage of their careers, I'd take Sullinger over Lee simply because Lee is almost a grandfather. Lee is obviously the better overall NBA player career wise and it's not close. If they were both 25 years old then David Lee would win hands down.

With Sully, I think and hope that we are trying to scare him into growing up a bit with these acquisitions. You can't just trade away a guy with Sully's potential at 23 years old. But you can bring in some players that threaten the 'cruise' he's had so far in his career with regards to competition for playing time on this team and the poor attitude he's developed within that comfort zone.

He's played with scrubs for most of his career now, particularly defensive scrubs and he's developed a self image that he's better than he really is because he's been starting and had some big games vs big names.
That doesn't mean the potential isn't there though.

He tends to have his weight/conditioning issues linked with his defensive ability but there's simply no evidence to support it. There is sometimes an issue with effort on the defensive end, but the numbers say he's a completely average defender who's slightly below average at guarding the pick and roll, whilst being a good post defender with a positive RPM on the defensive end for his career (although slightly negative last seasoN)- and that's playing with all those scrubs. He features in all of our best +/- lineups and he's in the 42nd percentile in PnR roll man defense, and 71st percentile in post defense.

He's an average defender. Not great, not bad. Put him out there with Marc Gasol or Joakim Noah and his numbers would move from average into the 'good' category of defender.

The fat haters will associate his weight with bad defense but it's simply not true. His solid base is why he's a good post defender and rebounder.

He's 23 years old and perhaps the best thing that can happen to him is to come off the bench for a year or at least see reduced playing time.
The talent is definitely there, the discipline and desire may not be.
All I know is that having this competition for minutes is the best thing that's happened to him for our sake. His easy ride is over and it's time to grow up.

 There are just so many 23 and even 25 year old's who have the mindset of an 18 year old male. Then there are guys like Smart who are the exact opposite. We've heard a lot of talk from Sully and from the Celtics about the changes he's making, but this is a literal kick in the a$$ for him that I hope will give him an 'ah haaaaa' moment. He's definitely an incredibly frustrating player to watch with so much potential.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 11:38:59 PM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 11:29:01 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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It is great that the season is finally starting up again.

Still, I'm not going to take into consideration performances in today's game when evaluating players.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2015, 12:06:19 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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At this stage of their careers, I'd take Sullinger over Lee simply because Lee is almost a grandfather. Lee is obviously the better overall NBA player career wise and it's not close. If they were both 25 years old then David Lee would win hands down.

With Sully, I think and hope that we are trying to scare him into growing up a bit with these acquisitions. You can't just trade away a guy with Sully's potential at 23 years old. But you can bring in some players that threaten the 'cruise' he's had so far in his career with regards to competition for playing time on this team and the poor attitude he's developed within that comfort zone.

He's played with scrubs for most of his career now, particularly defensive scrubs and he's developed a self image that he's better than he really is because he's been starting and had some big games vs big names.
That doesn't mean the potential isn't there though.

He tends to have his weight/conditioning issues linked with his defensive ability but there's simply no evidence to support it. There is sometimes an issue with effort on the defensive end, but the numbers say he's a completely average defender who's slightly below average at guarding the pick and roll, whilst being a good post defender with a positive RPM on the defensive end for his career (although slightly negative last seasoN)- and that's playing with all those scrubs. He features in all of our best +/- lineups and he's in the 42nd percentile in PnR roll man defense, and 71st percentile in post defense.

He's an average defender. Not great, not bad. Put him out there with Marc Gasol or Joakim Noah and his numbers would move from average into the 'good' category of defender.

The fat haters will associate his weight with bad defense but it's simply not true. His solid base is why he's a good post defender and rebounder.

He's 23 years old and perhaps the best thing that can happen to him is to come off the bench for a year or at least see reduced playing time.
The talent is definitely there, the discipline and desire may not be.
All I know is that having this competition for minutes is the best thing that's happened to him for our sake. His easy ride is over and it's time to grow up.

 There are just so many 23 and even 25 year old's who have the mindset of an 18 year old male. Then there are guys like Smart who are the exact opposite. We've heard a lot of talk from Sully and from the Celtics about the changes he's making, but this is a literal kick in the a$$ for him that I hope will give him an 'ah haaaaa' moment. He's definitely an incredibly frustrating player to watch with so much potential.









 You gave a fancy answer to tell me that Lee is better right now and that's all I wanted to know.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2015, 12:25:11 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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He tends to have his weight/conditioning issues linked with his defensive ability but there's simply no evidence to support it. There is sometimes an issue with effort on the defensive end, but the numbers say he's a completely average defender

On the whole, I would agree with this.

But I've never had an issue with his defensive capabilities so much as his defensive consistency, and that's where I feel his conditioning has hurt him in a huge way.

Last year when I was watching Sully, his defense always seemed to start out great when he'd first get on the court, and then gradually fade to nothing over time until he sat and rested.  You could see that after he'd been on the court for 5 minutes his effort levels dropped to nothing.  He'd walk (or slowly jog) back on defense, he'd fail to challenge shots, miss loose balls, have opponents blow by him like he's standing still, etc.

But in the first minute or two on the court, I felt he played with lots of energy - and as a result had a positive impact defensively.

The problem with all this is that now we have guys like Lee, Olynyk, Zeller and Johnson.  They might not be the star players, but they are guys who will give you the same consistent energy and effort every minute they're on the court.  When you have four guys like that on the team, it gets very difficult to justify putting somebody like Sully on the court, knowing he'll give you good effort for a couple of minutes at best.

I think all four of those guys will get the step over Sully as far as rotations go, and if he's not careful he might even fall behind Mickey.

People think this is insanity suggesting this, but it's not the first time that young guys with clear talent have been benched over effort/attitude concerns.  Evan Turner in Indiana.  Andray  Blatche in Washington.   Big Baby in Orlando.  Kwame Brown everywhere.  Rajon Rondo in Dallas. 

You can have all the talent in the world, but if there are guys on your roster who are willing to show a greater commitment than you are, then there's nothing stopping you from either riding the bench or getting waived / traded away.

When you look at guys like Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens - guys who are so obsessed with character, chemistry and intangibles - it becomes all the more likely.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2015, 01:21:20 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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Honestly I feel Sully is gonna have one big game (i.e. a 20-10 game) and half the opinions here are gonna change.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 01:32:08 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Honestly I feel Sully is gonna have one big game (i.e. a 20-10 game) and half the opinions here are gonna change.

I doubt it.

Sully had games like that last year - in isolation they don't mean much.  He's really got to put up games like that (or at least in the vicinity of that) on a nightly basis to change my opinion, and that of most his critiques I think. 

Sully is like Jeff Green and Avery Bradley - all three of those guys have shown they are capable of big games.  What they have never been able to show is the ability to do it on a nightly basis.

Out of the three I give Bradley some slack because with him I know it's never a question of effort or desire. He's doing the best with what he's got.  With Green and Sully it's different though.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2015, 01:37:21 AM »

Offline chambers

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Posted by: KG Living Legend
« on: Today at 08:06:19 AM »


Quote
You gave a fancy answer to tell me that Lee is better right now and that's all I wanted to know.


Right now I actually think Sullinger has the edge but it's very close...
He had a better season last year and was arguably our best player vs the Cavs....
Lee had a good series in the last few games of the finals...and 2 seasons ago he was average 18 points 9 rebounds in 33 minutes a game.

Looking at their per 36 minutes per game they are pretty similar with Lee at 15.5 points 10 rebounds and Sully at 17.7 points 10 rebounds.
Sully's got the better jumpshooting game and is a slightly better defender.

If Stevens told Sully to stop shooting three's their numbers would be almost identical FG% wise.

It's hard to tell if Lee has completely lost it with injury/age or if he's still got another 18/9 season left in him.
Sully on the other hand needs to get to a point where he can play 33 minutes without hurting the team due to lack of fitness and he's never actually shown us that he can play 30 mins+ without regressing physically.

I think it's very close though and it will be a close battle for that starting spot. Amir is going to play less minutes than both of these guys because of his bad ankles.

Who do you think had a better season last year out of Lee and Sully?
Basically if Lee hadn't gotten injured he'd be hands down the better player at the moment- but has he lost his mojo and is he on a decline given injury/age?

So yeah, slight edge to Sully but that could change if Lee returns to the pre injury Lee. Lee has actually shown that he can play 33 mins+ and stay productive when healthy.

Maybe coach and the Celtics are simply fed up with Sully's attitude and would rather try and get Lee back to where he was pre injury?

Why don't we flip a coin ? :)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 01:54:21 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2015, 04:15:58 AM »

Offline YoungOne87

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Lee is probably better right now but sully is worth way more for us for the future (development or trade)

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2015, 03:46:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd like to say this thread is reactionary, but I was one of the few who felt like David Lee was our best player the moment we brought him in.  He's good.  Sure, he was a benchwarmer in Golden State averaging 9 minutes in the playoffs (with several Coach Decision DNP's), but that situation was pretty unique and there's no reason he can't still play at a high statistical level.  Nobody should be surprised by Golden State's 15th man being the best player on this Celtic squad.

That said, Sully played fine.   I'm not counting him out yet.  There's a lot of things to dislike about Sully right now, but the negativity towards him is a bit overblown.  I still think he can have a future even in spite of his effort level.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2015, 04:06:51 PM »

Offline aingeforthree

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I'd like to say this thread is reactionary, but I was one of the few who felt like David Lee was our best player the moment we brought him in.  He's good.  Sure, he was a benchwarmer in Golden State averaging 9 minutes in the playoffs (with several Coach Decision DNP's), but that situation was pretty unique and there's no reason he can't still play at a high statistical level.  Nobody should be surprised by Golden State's 15th man being the best player on this Celtic squad.

That said, Sully played fine.   I'm not counting him out yet.  There's a lot of things to dislike about Sully right now, but the negativity towards him is a bit overblown.  I still think he can have a future even in spite of his effort level.

He was a starter before being benched, so it's not like you're getting trash.  He's an all star type talent with plenty left in the tank.

I think it will be tough for guys like Sully and Olynyk to get major minutes because Lee and Amir Johnson are flat out better.  It's going to be tough to earn minutes on this roster with the loads of talent Ainge has acquired and drafted.

Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2015, 04:09:37 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lee is better than Sully right now.  At some point Sully will pass him up, no idea when, but would be surprised if it is this season.
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Re: Poll: WHO's better Lee or Sully
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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Stop it. Lee had a nice preseason game and Sullinger is fat. Lee is pleasing us and Sullinger is disappointing us. We're all on board with this, now keep a clear head for a second.

Lee is a great passer. Sullinger is a great passer who actually turns the ball over less than Lee does.

Lee is a good rebounder. Sullinger is his equal.

Lee is among the worst defenders in the league at his position, a distinction he carried even in his athletic prime. Sullinger is a passable defender, in all his rotundity.

Lee is a decent finisher and gets about 54% in the paint. Sullinger is his equal.

Lee is an ok midrange shooter. Sullinger is a good midrange shooter.

Lee never takes three pointers. Sullinger jacks them up all the time and oh my god I just hate his stupid face.

Neither one draws fouls.

Stop making me defend Sullinger. ARGH!! David Lee is not that good any more, and he was super flawed in his prime. David Lee is OK and can help us and that's wonderful. You are blinded by the fact that he is not Gerald Wallace and not fat!