Author Topic: Official 2015-16 Brooklyn Nets Season Watch Thread (21-59, 3rd slot as of 4/12)  (Read 568633 times)

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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #930 on: November 26, 2015, 05:00:41 PM »

Online Big333223

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In fairness to Billy, though - this appeared to be a good trade for them at the time.

Zach Lowe recently talked about that trade. He said that at time he didn't think it was bad deal for the Nets, but every team source/executive he spoke to immediately said the Nets were fleeced.
It's funny to me that any Celtic fan would ever have been against the deal. And I thought the Nets were going to be really good that season but it was so clearly a great haul of assetts for two guys who had, at most, 1-to-2 competetive years remaining.

I even liked it in the sense that I liked giving Pierce and KG a chance to play for a competetive team in their finals years. Little did I know how bad that Nets were going to be.
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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #931 on: November 26, 2015, 05:14:25 PM »

Offline sahara

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In fairness to Billy, though - this appeared to be a good trade for them at the time.

Zach Lowe recently talked about that trade. He said that at time he didn't think it was bad deal for the Nets, but every team source/executive he spoke to immediately said the Nets were fleeced.
It's funny to me that any Celtic fan would ever have been against the deal. And I thought the Nets were going to be really good that season but it was so clearly a great haul of assetts for two guys who had, at most, 1-to-2 competetive years remaining.

I even liked it in the sense that I liked giving Pierce and KG a chance to play for a competetive team in their finals years. Little did I know how bad that Nets were going to be.

I remember when I woke up and read the news, boy it felt bad. It took me a while to used to the idea and I really thought that we couldīve gotten a better haul. I was wrong.

I get too attached to every player that played for us. I still check on Lester Hudson and JaJuan Johnson for example still hahah

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #932 on: November 26, 2015, 08:11:45 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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In fairness to Billy, though - this appeared to be a good trade for them at the time.

Zach Lowe recently talked about that trade. He said that at time he didn't think it was bad deal for the Nets, but every team source/executive he spoke to immediately said the Nets were fleeced.

I can understand that - about the other team sources/executives.

Maybe the other dressings of the trade - like taking on GWallace's contract - were the dressings that Danny used to coax Billy out of the other picks.

Either way it's going to work out well for BOS. It's GREAT to be in the running for Ben Simmons than to NOT be - and Ben could very well (and most likely will) be joining a 2nd round Playoff team in BOS.

Imagine that..."almost" 1986 all over again. A rather successful and up-and-coming BOS team drafting in the LOTTERY - thanks to Danny's working. Except this time not a championship (but not too far off) and no tragedies like what befell us in 1986.

Good times to be Green.

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #933 on: November 26, 2015, 08:17:48 PM »

Offline SCeltic34

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Through 15 games, here's how Brooklyn stacks up against other teams in the NBA, according to NBA.com team stats.

Defensive rating: 25th, allowing 105.9 points per 100 possessions.  Only the Nuggets, Lakers, Pelicans, and Bucks are worse.
Offensive rating: 28th, scoring only 97.8 points per 100 possessions.  Only the Lakers and 76ers are worse.
3 pt%: 29th.  Only the Rockets are worse.
Free throws attempted per game: 29th.  Only San Antonio gets to the charity stripe less.
eFG%: 25th.  Only the Pistons, Lakers, 76ers, Knicks, and Grizzlies are worse.
Opposing eFG%: Dead last at 30th (they give up the highest eFG%)
TS%: 28th.  Only the Pistons and 76ers are worse.
Fast break points: 24th.
Points from free throws: 27th.

But it's not 100% bad, unfortunately.  They are:
- In the middle of the road when it comes to committing turnovers
- 6th best when it comes to defensive rebounding percentage. 
- 11th best in forcing turnovers at 15 per 100 possessions.
- 4th best in scoring points in the paint, thanks to Lopez and Young.

I may have missed an important stat, but you get the point.  Overall, the stats correlate with the eye test.  Brooklyn is a very bad team and their record reflects just that.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath that we're getting Simmons with the Nets pick.  It just seems too optimistic, and the chances of that happening are against us.  But the stats above are the reason why I'm optimistic that Brooklyn will struggle for the rest of the season, as many of us had predicted before the season started.  I don't think we could ask for anything better than a top 5 pick, and hopefully that will be the end result.

More to come later, likely about Brooklyn lineups.  I'm curious to see which lineups are not working, and which lineups really are not working for the Nets.

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #934 on: November 26, 2015, 08:25:32 PM »

Offline jdz101

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.



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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #935 on: November 26, 2015, 09:15:08 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books. 

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #936 on: November 26, 2015, 09:44:59 PM »

Online Big333223

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.
They're likely going to miss the playoffs with the team they have and are going to be hard-pressed to compete for a spot in this Eastern conference even if they add some bench help (what veteran is going to want to sign with that team?). Given that reality, they should start thinking about the future and that means considering bringing in draft picks, which means trading someone away. It's not definite that they'd do this but they're not going to be well positioned to bring anyone of value over in free agency so it would absolutely make sense to ditch some irrelevant talent now for the prospect of talent when it means something later.
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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #937 on: November 26, 2015, 10:23:34 PM »

Offline More Banners

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.
They're likely going to miss the playoffs with the team they have and are going to be hard-pressed to compete for a spot in this Eastern conference even if they add some bench help (what veteran is going to want to sign with that team?). Given that reality, they should start thinking about the future and that means considering bringing in draft picks, which means trading someone away. It's not definite that they'd do this but they're not going to be well positioned to bring anyone of value over in free agency so it would absolutely make sense to ditch some irrelevant talent now for the prospect of talent when it means something later.

Some sort of Lopez for young players and picks?  Sign some reclamation and rehabbing projects from the scrap heap, probably overpay for them?

Oh, it's going to take a miracle for the next 3 years not to suck in Brooklyn.

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #938 on: November 26, 2015, 10:30:14 PM »

Offline Granath

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.

I don't see how they even pull off #1. What do they trade in return for that depth? What assets can they move to add veteran help to that team? Do they even have any assets? I don't think they have anything to offer.

And while the 2nd option doesn't make sense, neither does the first. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You're right, without them controlling their picks it doesn't make sense to commit to a full rebuild...

...but they can't win with that team and their players aren't getting better. Lopez and Young are both 27, which statistically is the last year of the age 24-27 statistical peak for NBA players. As these guys get older their trade value will just drop and they have no place on the team by the time the Nets control their picks to commit to a rebuild. So their best assets are dwindling in value now, have no real value to them on a long term basis and how are they going to sell tickets to their customers (corporate and fan) when their current roster has no hope of winning? 

Could they play out the string with this squad and then try to go after FAs in the offseason? You betcha they could, but they're going to compete with 25 other teams who have good cap space and most of which have a far better situation to offer than the Nets do. If they strike out in FA next year, can you see them trying to sell tickets when their no-hope roster is yet another year older? This isn't a team of spring chickens - the average age is over 26 and of their top 5 guys in minutes played there's not one under that age!

So it makes about as much sense to sell anyone you can to acquire young talent or even mid-round picks. At least then you might be able to sell hope to the fan base and try to build a team like the current Celtics squad - young, scrappy and fun to watch (if sometimes ugly to watch).

Truthfully, I cannot remember a team in a worse long-term situation than the current Nets. They're virtually in a [dang]ed if you do, [dang]ed if you don't scenario and will be for three more years!
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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #939 on: November 26, 2015, 11:18:59 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.

I don't see how they even pull off #1. What do they trade in return for that depth? What assets can they move to add veteran help to that team? Do they even have any assets? I don't think they have anything to offer.

And while the 2nd option doesn't make sense, neither does the first. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You're right, without them controlling their picks it doesn't make sense to commit to a full rebuild...

...but they can't win with that team and their players aren't getting better. Lopez and Young are both 27, which statistically is the last year of the age 24-27 statistical peak for NBA players. As these guys get older their trade value will just drop and they have no place on the team by the time the Nets control their picks to commit to a rebuild. So their best assets are dwindling in value now, have no real value to them on a long term basis and how are they going to sell tickets to their customers (corporate and fan) when their current roster has no hope of winning? 

Could they play out the string with this squad and then try to go after FAs in the offseason? You betcha they could, but they're going to compete with 25 other teams who have good cap space and most of which have a far better situation to offer than the Nets do. If they strike out in FA next year, can you see them trying to sell tickets when their no-hope roster is yet another year older? This isn't a team of spring chickens - the average age is over 26 and of their top 5 guys in minutes played there's not one under that age!

So it makes about as much sense to sell anyone you can to acquire young talent or even mid-round picks. At least then you might be able to sell hope to the fan base and try to build a team like the current Celtics squad - young, scrappy and fun to watch (if sometimes ugly to watch).

Truthfully, I cannot remember a team in a worse long-term situation than the current Nets. They're virtually in a [dang]ed if you do, [dang]ed if you don't scenario and will be for three more years!
27 is not old.  Good players prime years go through their early 30s.  Durant is 27.  Do you not want him?   

I agree that the Nets have few assets to try to get better this season.  They are also constrained by being up against the luxury tax line.  However, Billy King has said he's already contacted other teams about possible trades. I believe that he is in his last year of his contract so he's got incentive to get better now to keep his job.  He could offer up RHJ and their 2020 1st and take on some out year salary to try to make a bigger trade.   Maybe some sort of salary match with Johnson's contract.  In the end, I think they'll end up making a minor trade or two this season.  There is no reason the Nets can't compete for free agents in the offseason.  Not only can they pay them but they've got 2 or 3 starting spots up for grabs. 

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #940 on: November 26, 2015, 11:36:51 PM »

Offline jdz101

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.
They're likely going to miss the playoffs with the team they have and are going to be hard-pressed to compete for a spot in this Eastern conference even if they add some bench help (what veteran is going to want to sign with that team?). Given that reality, they should start thinking about the future and that means considering bringing in draft picks, which means trading someone away. It's not definite that they'd do this but they're not going to be well positioned to bring anyone of value over in free agency so it would absolutely make sense to ditch some irrelevant talent now for the prospect of talent when it means something later.

Some sort of Lopez for young players and picks?  Sign some reclamation and rehabbing projects from the scrap heap, probably overpay for them?

Oh, it's going to take a miracle for the next 3 years not to suck in Brooklyn.

Lopez for a young prospect + picks package is really the only deal that makes sense. I get that option 2 doesn't make complete sense as you want to have the high value of your own pick when you sacrifice wins. Getting back into the draft with some form of first round pick at least helps speed up the process though surely?



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Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #941 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:49 PM »

Offline Granath

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27 is not old.  Good players prime years go through their early 30s.  Durant is 27.  Do you not want him?   

Statistically, the peak of an average NBA player is 24 to 27 years old. After that it's almost always a downhill ride from there. So while Lopez (for example) isn't old, he's just about out of his prime. From here on out, every year the Nets wait to move him his value drops. It's not a precipitous drop from one year to the next until he's over 30 but there will be a decline in return...and of course, that's not including injury risks (something you really have to consider with Lopez).

What's Durant's value now versus two years ago? Still sky-high but not what it once was. And Lopez is no Durant.

Here's the simple truth: http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Notice how that decline starts getting very close to double digits from 28 to 29? NBA GMs know this. Brook Lopez will be 28 1/2 starting next season. Thad Young will be over 28. Their value drops every season from here on out and that's without any injury factor. Those are the facts. Their best value is to move them at the trade deadline or prior to the draft next year.

I agree that the Nets have few assets to try to get better this season.  They are also constrained by being up against the luxury tax line.  However, Billy King has said he's already contacted other teams about possible trades. I believe that he is in his last year of his contract so he's got incentive to get better now to keep his job.  He could offer up RHJ and their 2020 1st and take on some out year salary to try to make a bigger trade.   Maybe some sort of salary match with Johnson's contract.  In the end, I think they'll end up making a minor trade or two this season.  There is no reason the Nets can't compete for free agents in the offseason.  Not only can they pay them but they've got 2 or 3 starting spots up for grabs.

Ok, let's take each of these points in turn. King may have incentive to keep his job but we both agree he has almost no arrows in the quiver to shoot. He really can't take on salary against the luxury tax. His only young player is RHJ and moving him makes no sense whatsoever. Johnson isn't worth squat. The cupboard is really bare if you're trying to add pieces to the Nets. I think we can also both agree that a minor trade isn't getting this team close to the playoffs.

As for the off-season, they can compete for FAs but it's quite questionable whether or not they can win. There's going to be about 20 teams that can offer someone the max and many teams who can offer it to multiple players. There's a glut of money available for too few players, something that hasn't really ever happened before. It is difficult to imagine any plausible scenario where the Nets can attract a good FA because that team has very little to offer beyond the New York metropolitan area.   

Scratch any veteran FAs who want to win a title right off the bat. So now imagine you're DeMar DeRozan, Harrison Barnes or Terrance Jones. Are you going to the Nets? Or would you rather go to Boston, LA, Milwaukee, Washington, Atlanta, Indy, Detroit, NY Knicks, New Orleans, Miami...the list goes on and on? Some of those teams (NY, LA, Miami) offer more glam. Others offer a great player to already build around (NO, Washington). Others offer a far better chance of winning (Mil, Atlanta). Others offer better coaches and long term prospects (Boston). I sincerely believe the Nets are going to have a very difficult time competing for any really good FAs. No one is going to want to play for a perpetual loser when everyone is going to be overpaying for your services anyway.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:04:35 AM by Granath »
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #942 on: November 27, 2015, 12:27:33 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.
They're likely going to miss the playoffs with the team they have and are going to be hard-pressed to compete for a spot in this Eastern conference even if they add some bench help (what veteran is going to want to sign with that team?). Given that reality, they should start thinking about the future and that means considering bringing in draft picks, which means trading someone away. It's not definite that they'd do this but they're not going to be well positioned to bring anyone of value over in free agency so it would absolutely make sense to ditch some irrelevant talent now for the prospect of talent when it means something later.

Some sort of Lopez for young players and picks?  Sign some reclamation and rehabbing projects from the scrap heap, probably overpay for them?

Oh, it's going to take a miracle for the next 3 years not to suck in Brooklyn.

Lopez for a young prospect + picks package is really the only deal that makes sense. I get that option 2 doesn't make complete sense as you want to have the high value of your own pick when you sacrifice wins. Getting back into the draft with some form of first round pick at least helps speed up the process though surely?
Trading Lopez doesn't make much sense.  They just aren't going to get that much return for him.  You've got to salary match to make the trade work and Lopez makes 19.7mil.  Also the Nets are up against the luxury tax line so they are not going to take on more salary than they send out.  Which teams would actually need or want Lopez, be able to match his salary and give the Nets enough in return to justify the trade?   Given all that, I can't think of any realistic trade proposals for Lopez and I haven't seen anyone propose one either. 

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #943 on: November 27, 2015, 01:13:09 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Scratch any veteran FAs who want to win a title right off the bat. So now imagine you're DeMar DeRozan, Harrison Barnes or Terrance Jones. Are you going to the Nets? Or would you rather go to Boston, LA, Milwaukee, Washington, Atlanta, Indy, Detroit, NY Knicks, New Orleans, Miami...the list goes on and on? Some of those teams (NY, LA, Miami) offer more glam. Others offer a great player to already build around (NO, Washington). Others offer a far better chance of winning (Mil, Atlanta). Others offer better coaches and long term prospects (Boston). I sincerely believe the Nets are going to have a very difficult time competing for any really good FAs. No one is going to want to play for a perpetual loser when everyone is going to be overpaying for your services anyway.
I think many of the teams you mention aren't necessarily preferable to Brooklyn.  The Nets made the playoffs last year and there is no reason to think they'll be perpetual losers.  Not all of the teams are necessarily going to have cap space because they have their own free agents to re-sign.  Miami's got Wade, Whiteside and Deng to re-sign.  Washington wants Durant but will they also be able to pay Beal?  LA has tried the last few years to get top free agents but have failed.  Maybe that changes with Kobe retiring but maybe it won't until their management changes.  As for us, I don't think Stevens and a bunch of middling players are going to be a big draw for free agents.  If I'm DeRozan, I'd probably prefer to team up with Lopez and Young. 

Re: The official 2015-2016 Brooklyn Nets season watch thread
« Reply #944 on: November 27, 2015, 04:20:06 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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There are two ways they can go this year:

1. Get some short contract bench help or some veteran help before the deadline and improve their depth. Not a great result for us. Their record will improve.

2. Trade core players for picks in an effort to get back into the draft in some way, shape or form. Best possible result for boston.
Without their own picks, the 2nd option doesn't make sense for them.  They are not going to get a good enough return from Lopez and Young to justify them going into a full rebuild.  They'll do option 1 this season and then try to acquire additional talent in free agency using the jump in cap space and Johnson's big contract coming off the books.

2nd pick is an option, there were some Nets fans that advocate for trading away assets like Lopez for cap relief, some young prospects and some picks. It might make them bottom out this year but the net effect would be they might be better in the next few years. instead of handing out 1 mid round pick (2016 if they choose option 1) and 2 straight lottos (2017-2018 which could happen if they sign mediocre talents in option 1) they would hand out 1 potential top 3 pick (2016 for option 2) and 2 mid round picks (2017-2018) while also having cap space to improve and some prospects and draft picks