Author Topic: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs  (Read 11561 times)

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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2015, 06:53:54 AM »

Offline otherdave

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Putting aside the Sully vs TT debate, and looking at the luxury tax implications:

Cavs are already 10 mil above the luxury tax for this year, add another 17 mil to that and the "real cost" of retaining TT would be staggering.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2015, 11:36:37 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I would also like to add that I do not think that either of them is all world.

Quote
Ok so he takes more jumpshots which are less efficient, but because of his ability to drain that jumpshot, he gives us spacing to penetrate and get better perimeter looks. This is why his assist ratio is infinitely better than Thompson's. His free throws are 10% higher than Thompsons. His jumpshot's are better than Thompson's and as mentioned earlier, he takes 4 more shots per game than Thompson (12 vs Thompson's 8 shots)... and when Thompson was taking 10 shots per game his 2 point FG% was worse than Sully's.
 The only thing he has done (which mainly began last season at the request of his coach) is start taking more three point attempts, which he shot at a very solid clip for 50% of his season. That skill takes seasons to acquire, and last season was the first season he was asked to add that skill to his game.

Watch some games, other teams did not always respect his three.   They let him take it without covering it.   

I think he has a nice two jumper.

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No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.

To which I would reply, I don't think you get the difference.   Let's get this straight, your argument is not based in fact, I did not see any stats posted to back it up.   There is a difference between  facts and opinion.  I am the guy who posted stats showing Thompson, got more rebounds.   Your argument was that he did it against second team, with no stats backing it up.   Your also claiming teams respected his shot, which simply is not true, all the time, he is horrible at that shot and other teams gave it to him.  It is pure fantasy to think that teams scheme to shut down Sully.   

If he is of such import, why is he not even written about in articles this year now we have Lee and Amir.   I have seen a few but I have seen more where he is not mentioned.

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I just think Sully is the better, more versatile, more complete NBA player of the two, and I think that Thompson asking for that much money is simply ridiculous as an NBA garbage man.

Note, I am the guy who said he was the more versatile offensive player and I supposedly hate the guy.   The problem is Sullinger is horrible on D.   Up to this point, he has shown lack of professionalism, in keeping his body ready.   I think Ainge would love for either him to turn it around or trade him.   But right now his value has never been lower.   It might help us resign him, but the thing is do we want this guy in our culture.   Does he get it?   How many chances does he get?

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Just because Thompson has better discipline does not make him a better player.

Perhaps, but he plays within his game, and is not a detriment to his team.   Would you want Sully around the rooks to show them his version of the NBA lifestyle.

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Anyway, I'll save any further replies for when I feel the need to point out the positives that Sully brings to the Celtics in another thread- because there will undoubtedly be another one, and if I don't stop, this debate will not stop because of our differing opinions.

Let the games decide who plays and who does not.   I am pretty sure we are both want the team to do well.  I will be there to keep you grounded in regards to a lazy one way player.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2015, 10:20:33 PM »

Offline chambers

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Quote
No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.

To which I would reply, I don't think you get the difference.   Let's get this straight, your argument is not based in fact, I did not see any stats posted to back it up.   There is a difference between  facts and opinion.  I am the guy who posted stats showing Thompson, got more rebounds.   Your argument was that he did it against second team, with no stats backing it up.   Your also claiming teams respected his shot, which simply is not true, all the time, he is horrible at that shot and other teams gave it to him.  It is pure fantasy to think that teams scheme to shut down Sully.   


Hang on, I've posted plenty of stats- look at the first paragraph you quoted...and go back and read the replies in this thread that I've made.
If you choose to ignore them that's your prerogative. You've posted Thompson's rebound rate and his 2 point FG% I've posted Sully's stats vs Thompson's where he clearly outclasses him in the majority of categories, whilst being a year younger and playing the same minutes, vs tougher competition.
Sully total starts 2015 regular season: 49
Thompson's total starts 2015 regular season: 15

^ surely you can admit that Sully has played FAR MORE minutes against starters than Thompson?

Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Please read what I'm writing correctly-you've done this a couple of times now accusing me of saying/writing/implied something which I clearly haven't.
ie: I said his jumpshot is respected, not his three point shot (which I'd argue is still improving and become more respected considering up until the All Star break it was very good- but I never originally made that assertion anyway).
I also never said, as you asserted that I'd said, that Sully had better lateral movement than Thompson.

If you don't believe what I've written about the numbers then look it up for yourself.

your main arguments are:
Sully is fat
Sully is lazy
Tristan Thompson has a higher offensive rebound rate, even though Sully beats or equals him in almost every other category on the court including defensive rebounding rate, and that's even after being asked to play away from the basket more this season to develop his 'Kevin Love' style game, which you have acknowledged probably hurts his offensive rebounding numbers.
You're even saying that because Sully hasn't been in the media, that somehow that means he's not wanted or useful here any more...really?

I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.

 
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2015, 06:42:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.

To which I would reply, I don't think you get the difference.   Let's get this straight, your argument is not based in fact, I did not see any stats posted to back it up.   There is a difference between  facts and opinion.  I am the guy who posted stats showing Thompson, got more rebounds.   Your argument was that he did it against second team, with no stats backing it up.   Your also claiming teams respected his shot, which simply is not true, all the time, he is horrible at that shot and other teams gave it to him.  It is pure fantasy to think that teams scheme to shut down Sully.   


Hang on, I've posted plenty of stats- look at the first paragraph you quoted...and go back and read the replies in this thread that I've made.
If you choose to ignore them that's your prerogative. You've posted Thompson's rebound rate and his 2 point FG% I've posted Sully's stats vs Thompson's where he clearly outclasses him in the majority of categories, whilst being a year younger and playing the same minutes, vs tougher competition.
Sully total starts 2015 regular season: 49
Thompson's total starts 2015 regular season: 15

^ surely you can admit that Sully has played FAR MORE minutes against starters than Thompson?

Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Please read what I'm writing correctly-you've done this a couple of times now accusing me of saying/writing/implied something which I clearly haven't.
ie: I said his jumpshot is respected, not his three point shot (which I'd argue is still improving and become more respected considering up until the All Star break it was very good- but I never originally made that assertion anyway).
I also never said, as you asserted that I'd said, that Sully had better lateral movement than Thompson.

If you don't believe what I've written about the numbers then look it up for yourself.

your main arguments are:
Sully is fat
Sully is lazy
Tristan Thompson has a higher offensive rebound rate, even though Sully beats or equals him in almost every other category on the court including defensive rebounding rate, and that's even after being asked to play away from the basket more this season to develop his 'Kevin Love' style game, which you have acknowledged probably hurts his offensive rebounding numbers.
You're even saying that because Sully hasn't been in the media, that somehow that means he's not wanted or useful here any more...really?

I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.
Games started has no bearing on minutes vs. actual starters other than the first few minutes of a game.  You have no evidence at all that Sullinger played more against starters than Thompson, other than saying, up he started more he had to play more against starters.  Except you can't actually do that.  It doesn't work that way.
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2015, 09:41:26 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Keeping talking, your digging yourself a hole.   You were being relatively rational until this paragraph then you went off the Niagara Falls of Bat Poop Crazy.

here are some of chew on and there is plenty to support he is a poor defender.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS19.HTM

I always have a lot of video I can post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnM8W2MHly4


Quote
I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.

Your in denial, you also do not apply your own standards to your own posts.  Consider this an intervention

He may yet turn it around,  I have no problem if he does.  But you have this.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/10/4/9449145/bob-ryan-time-to-move-on-from-jared-sullinger

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »

Offline chambers

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Quote
Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Keeping talking, your digging yourself a hole.   You were being relatively rational until this paragraph then you went off the Niagara Falls of Bat Poop Crazy.

here are some of chew on and there is plenty to support he is a poor defender.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS19.HTM

I always have a lot of video I can post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnM8W2MHly4


Quote
I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.

Your in denial, you also do not apply your own standards to your own posts.  Consider this an intervention

He may yet turn it around,  I have no problem if he does.  But you have this.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/10/4/9449145/bob-ryan-time-to-move-on-from-jared-sullinger

Wow...So now I'm bat poop crazy? You really went there? It's really that frustrating finding factual evidence to support your argument? That's because it's your opinion.

You've posted a link to 82 games and a youtube video..Please tell me how this concludes that he's a terrible defender? Particularly the 82 games reference. Lol.

Hit me.
Give me a statistically backed argument proving that Jared Sullinger is a terrible defender and/or that Tristan Thompson is a better player.
You can't because it's not true.

Is he lazy? Possibly.
Does he lack discipline? Yes.
Does he struggle with commitment?  Yes.

Is he a 'terrible' defender? No
Has he been our best player until IT showed up? Yes.
Is he better than Tristan Thompson?  Yes.


"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2015, 10:40:16 AM »

Offline chambers

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Quote
No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.

To which I would reply, I don't think you get the difference.   Let's get this straight, your argument is not based in fact, I did not see any stats posted to back it up.   There is a difference between  facts and opinion.  I am the guy who posted stats showing Thompson, got more rebounds.   Your argument was that he did it against second team, with no stats backing it up.   Your also claiming teams respected his shot, which simply is not true, all the time, he is horrible at that shot and other teams gave it to him.  It is pure fantasy to think that teams scheme to shut down Sully.   


Hang on, I've posted plenty of stats- look at the first paragraph you quoted...and go back and read the replies in this thread that I've made.
If you choose to ignore them that's your prerogative. You've posted Thompson's rebound rate and his 2 point FG% I've posted Sully's stats vs Thompson's where he clearly outclasses him in the majority of categories, whilst being a year younger and playing the same minutes, vs tougher competition.
Sully total starts 2015 regular season: 49
Thompson's total starts 2015 regular season: 15

^ surely you can admit that Sully has played FAR MORE minutes against starters than Thompson?

Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Please read what I'm writing correctly-you've done this a couple of times now accusing me of saying/writing/implied something which I clearly haven't.
ie: I said his jumpshot is respected, not his three point shot (which I'd argue is still improving and become more respected considering up until the All Star break it was very good- but I never originally made that assertion anyway).
I also never said, as you asserted that I'd said, that Sully had better lateral movement than Thompson.

If you don't believe what I've written about the numbers then look it up for yourself.

your main arguments are:
Sully is fat
Sully is lazy
Tristan Thompson has a higher offensive rebound rate, even though Sully beats or equals him in almost every other category on the court including defensive rebounding rate, and that's even after being asked to play away from the basket more this season to develop his 'Kevin Love' style game, which you have acknowledged probably hurts his offensive rebounding numbers.
You're even saying that because Sully hasn't been in the media, that somehow that means he's not wanted or useful here any more...really?

I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.
Games started has no bearing on minutes vs. actual starters other than the first few minutes of a game.  You have no evidence at all that Sullinger played more against starters than Thompson, other than saying, up he started more he had to play more against starters.  Except you can't actually do that.  It doesn't work that way.

So the Cavs sat Mozgov and Love while their opponents starting units were on the floor....and preferred Love and Mozgov playing against opponents 2nd units. Yeah okay.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2015, 11:32:36 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.

To which I would reply, I don't think you get the difference.   Let's get this straight, your argument is not based in fact, I did not see any stats posted to back it up.   There is a difference between  facts and opinion.  I am the guy who posted stats showing Thompson, got more rebounds.   Your argument was that he did it against second team, with no stats backing it up.   Your also claiming teams respected his shot, which simply is not true, all the time, he is horrible at that shot and other teams gave it to him.  It is pure fantasy to think that teams scheme to shut down Sully.   


Hang on, I've posted plenty of stats- look at the first paragraph you quoted...and go back and read the replies in this thread that I've made.
If you choose to ignore them that's your prerogative. You've posted Thompson's rebound rate and his 2 point FG% I've posted Sully's stats vs Thompson's where he clearly outclasses him in the majority of categories, whilst being a year younger and playing the same minutes, vs tougher competition.
Sully total starts 2015 regular season: 49
Thompson's total starts 2015 regular season: 15

^ surely you can admit that Sully has played FAR MORE minutes against starters than Thompson?

Your opinions on defense are opinions. There are no stats to back it up- just your opinion that he's a fat slob and he sometimes doesn't put in effort. You can't prove he's a terrible defender because the players on his team were terrible in the paint-he hasn't had any decent help on defense in the paint since KG was here.
All we actually know is that when Sully was on the floor with KG as a rookie, his defensive numbers were excellent.

Please read what I'm writing correctly-you've done this a couple of times now accusing me of saying/writing/implied something which I clearly haven't.
ie: I said his jumpshot is respected, not his three point shot (which I'd argue is still improving and become more respected considering up until the All Star break it was very good- but I never originally made that assertion anyway).
I also never said, as you asserted that I'd said, that Sully had better lateral movement than Thompson.

If you don't believe what I've written about the numbers then look it up for yourself.

your main arguments are:
Sully is fat
Sully is lazy
Tristan Thompson has a higher offensive rebound rate, even though Sully beats or equals him in almost every other category on the court including defensive rebounding rate, and that's even after being asked to play away from the basket more this season to develop his 'Kevin Love' style game, which you have acknowledged probably hurts his offensive rebounding numbers.
You're even saying that because Sully hasn't been in the media, that somehow that means he's not wanted or useful here any more...really?

I have provided far more statistical/numerical evidence to support my claims than anyone bashing Sully in this thread.
You've claimed he's fat and has bad work ethic, and that he's not a focus in recent newspaper articles so he's on the way out.
Games started has no bearing on minutes vs. actual starters other than the first few minutes of a game.  You have no evidence at all that Sullinger played more against starters than Thompson, other than saying, up he started more he had to play more against starters.  Except you can't actually do that.  It doesn't work that way.

So the Cavs sat Mozgov and Love while their opponents starting units were on the floor....and preferred Love and Mozgov playing against opponents 2nd units. Yeah okay.
apparently you didn't watch the Cavs because they did that a lot.  In fact, there were stretches of the season where Love barely played in the 4th quarter while Thompson played almost all of it.  And Mozgov wasn't there the whole year. 

You have nothing more than your speculation about how things work, without any supporting information at all.

You also haven't answered my statement about Thompson starting 164 games the prior two seasons and actually having better defensive rebounding rates as a starter.  I mean how could that be, against starters he should be worse, not better.  I mean that is your argument, which is just nonsense.
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