Author Topic: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs  (Read 11560 times)

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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2015, 03:00:59 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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In all honesty, Thompson was killing us in the playoffs....all over the place on offensive rebounds---but I bet he's a Mark Blount type, will get paid and dog it....
Blount was amazing in his contract year.

He was killing us, but it's not like we had anyone on the court to compete for those rebounds. I'm really looking forward to having Amir Johnson this season. I also think that, in a year or two, Jordan Mickey will be able to do anything that Thompson can do on the basketball court.

Totally agree---I don't see why anyone would pay TT the money he wants--he's out of his freaking mind.
yup.  only guy we had that had any success getting the boards while TT was in the game was Sully.  had way too many soft big men last year.  that group made TT look really good

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2015, 05:16:22 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Serious question-- who's the best offensive rebounder in the world? It's between Whiteside, Drummond, and Jordan.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=mp_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=orb_pct


Looks to me like Drummond has it by a significant margin, though you could argue he didn't have much competition for boards.  So perhaps Deandre.
In the last 4 years, Thompson has finished 2nd, 4th, and 7th in offensive rebound rate.  I was exaggerating a bit as Drummond is a better offensive rebounder, but I think you could easily make the case that Thompson is 2nd.


I think their argument is, if Sully ONLY focused on rebounding like TT does, he would be even better. Sully has more responsibility offensively and against starters.

I have no dog in this fight, but it's what I got from their argument.
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2015, 07:04:31 PM »

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If we're being honest, even if he's Dennis Rodman 2.0, he ain't worth a max.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2015, 07:15:29 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Thompson's a better player than Sullinger. 

I'd say his limitations make him a more situational fit than Sullinger, but he's productive, athletic, and consistently healthy.  He's a huge asset for any team that has enough scoring and shooting to make up for his deficiencies.

The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.
Thompson is probably the best offensive rebounder in the world and is a better rebounder overall than Sullinger.  Thompson is a better defender as well.



disclaimer: I have no idea if Thompson actually is the best offensive rebounder in the world.
I also have no idea if Moranis is drunk right now.
Coincidence?
bravo dos. ha, ha... well played indeed. a tp for making me laugh.  ;D
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2015, 08:11:54 PM »

Offline chambers

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Quote
The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.

So not true.

FG% for Thompson was 55%
FG% for Sullinger was 44%


8 RPG in  26.8 MPG for Thompson
7.6 RPG in 27.0 MPG Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Now in this blog, I realize, we always have the "but",  "if" excuse making club but these are facts.  He is not the better shooter or rebounder.  But Sully took threes?  He did it to himself and he is not that good at them.

Quote
I hate going back to these Sully arguments and all I said was that I personally think Sullinger is a superior player to Thompson, and most of us would gawk at giving Sully $10 million year.

Me too.

Quote
We knew Sully had a bad back that likely needed surgery at some point and we knew that when we drafted him.
He's a far superior offensive player and weapon on the offensive end than Thompson and a vastly superior shooter being top 10 in the NBA in jumpshots from 16 feet+.
He's also exactly one year younger.

I think enough with the excuses for this kid.   It is true, he had back issues, but it is also true, the surgery did not translate into improved play once performed.

I would argue the superior offense player is largely a myth but rather than Sullinger is the more versatle offensive player.  I would rather have a guy that plays within himself.  Thompson does not take ill advised threes, plays to his strengths.   That is an extremely important aspect of offense, knowing your limitations and your strengths.   I can't always say that of Sullinger, he wants to take hero shots ( poor option there ) and he takes poor threes.   Sullinger does a nice mid range, but he is poor long range shooter.  I think that the above being said, he has more offensive talent but he has squandered it by not being a professional and making poor decisions on the court.   

"But"  "IF" CBS wanted him to take that shot? His back was bad? Let the excuses fly as they always do.  I for one am sick of them, I also think there is a plethora of evidence that this young man contributes a lot to his basketball issues or compounded them with his lifestyle.

I really hope that he is serious about playing more inside this year because if he would be a much better shooter.  I also think his boards would go up.  Here is what Stevens recently said of him:

Quote
"We've done a lot of work," the coach said. "We've done some running, we've done all that stuff, and I think that he is running, especially in the running at the end, well. I think we all probably need to continue to get into game shape. And I don't expect anybody to be in game shape on Oct. 3. I think that's part of the process of getting ready. He's in a competition with a lot of guys for minutes, but he's a good player and he's done a lot of good things.

"I thought the other day (at the scrimmage) he didn't have the benefit of getting in the rhythm, because (he had) a couple of offensive fouls where, the one he had Kelly (Olynyk) sealed and probably would have been a layup otherwise. And then our guys doubled him. He was the only guy they doubled in the post and he made great plays to Tyler (Zeller) and got Tyler a couple of open looks. So he's playing pretty well, but again it's stiff competition at that spot."

An acknowledgement of his talent but also admitting that he might be the odd man out or expendable.

Thompson wants to get paid, I do not blame him his value is most likely never higher.   The sad thing with Sully, I am not sure the opposite is true.

Again Thompson's rebounds per 36 are against back up players. Smaller, poorer athletes. Sullinger's came as a starter in the NBA.
Sullingers 2 point FG% is also better than Thompson's and that includes all the jumpshots he takes- that Thompson is abysmal at.

You're saying he took threes and it's his fault. It was obviously a focus of Brad and Danny Ainge's to develop his three point shot. Just like the Bucks obviously told Giannis not to take threes last year.
 Brad Stevens even said that he gave Sully the green light to get those threes up.

I don't know if Sully will even make it past this year on our team. He's got a lot of mental and character flaws working against him, but I do feel it's the right thing to point out certain positive things about him.
 
 You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.
He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time.

Sully's a better defensive rebounder and has far more time on the court vs elite NBA rebounders, defenders and offensive opponents on a nightly basis. He's a better shooter, passer (has an assist ratio of 14% to Thompsons 3.6% when Thompson had some of the best offensive finishers in the game on his team). He has less turnovers, shoots free throws at a 10% higher clip whilst taking more.
Thompson also played last year with the best player in the world and an elite point guard giving him substantially easy, open looks around the basket.

Again, Jared Sullinger isn't an All Star. Thompson may be mentally tougher, have better dietary discipline and less injury concern, but on the basketball court, Sullinger is the better player.
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2015, 11:01:21 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.

So not true.

FG% for Thompson was 55%
FG% for Sullinger was 44%


8 RPG in  26.8 MPG for Thompson
7.6 RPG in 27.0 MPG Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Now in this blog, I realize, we always have the "but",  "if" excuse making club but these are facts.  He is not the better shooter or rebounder.  But Sully took threes?  He did it to himself and he is not that good at them.

Quote
I hate going back to these Sully arguments and all I said was that I personally think Sullinger is a superior player to Thompson, and most of us would gawk at giving Sully $10 million year.

Me too.

Quote
We knew Sully had a bad back that likely needed surgery at some point and we knew that when we drafted him.
He's a far superior offensive player and weapon on the offensive end than Thompson and a vastly superior shooter being top 10 in the NBA in jumpshots from 16 feet+.
He's also exactly one year younger.

I think enough with the excuses for this kid.   It is true, he had back issues, but it is also true, the surgery did not translate into improved play once performed.

I would argue the superior offense player is largely a myth but rather than Sullinger is the more versatle offensive player.  I would rather have a guy that plays within himself.  Thompson does not take ill advised threes, plays to his strengths.   That is an extremely important aspect of offense, knowing your limitations and your strengths.   I can't always say that of Sullinger, he wants to take hero shots ( poor option there ) and he takes poor threes.   Sullinger does a nice mid range, but he is poor long range shooter.  I think that the above being said, he has more offensive talent but he has squandered it by not being a professional and making poor decisions on the court.   

"But"  "IF" CBS wanted him to take that shot? His back was bad? Let the excuses fly as they always do.  I for one am sick of them, I also think there is a plethora of evidence that this young man contributes a lot to his basketball issues or compounded them with his lifestyle.

I really hope that he is serious about playing more inside this year because if he would be a much better shooter.  I also think his boards would go up.  Here is what Stevens recently said of him:

Quote
"We've done a lot of work," the coach said. "We've done some running, we've done all that stuff, and I think that he is running, especially in the running at the end, well. I think we all probably need to continue to get into game shape. And I don't expect anybody to be in game shape on Oct. 3. I think that's part of the process of getting ready. He's in a competition with a lot of guys for minutes, but he's a good player and he's done a lot of good things.

"I thought the other day (at the scrimmage) he didn't have the benefit of getting in the rhythm, because (he had) a couple of offensive fouls where, the one he had Kelly (Olynyk) sealed and probably would have been a layup otherwise. And then our guys doubled him. He was the only guy they doubled in the post and he made great plays to Tyler (Zeller) and got Tyler a couple of open looks. So he's playing pretty well, but again it's stiff competition at that spot."

An acknowledgement of his talent but also admitting that he might be the odd man out or expendable.

Thompson wants to get paid, I do not blame him his value is most likely never higher.   The sad thing with Sully, I am not sure the opposite is true.

Again Thompson's rebounds per 36 are against back up players. Smaller, poorer athletes. Sullinger's came as a starter in the NBA.
Sullingers 2 point FG% is also better than Thompson's and that includes all the jumpshots he takes- that Thompson is abysmal at.

You're saying he took threes and it's his fault. It was obviously a focus of Brad and Danny Ainge's to develop his three point shot. Just like the Bucks obviously told Giannis not to take threes last year.
 Brad Stevens even said that he gave Sully the green light to get those threes up.

I don't know if Sully will even make it past this year on our team. He's got a lot of mental and character flaws working against him, but I do feel it's the right thing to point out certain positive things about him.
 
 You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.
He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time.

Sully's a better defensive rebounder and has far more time on the court vs elite NBA rebounders, defenders and offensive opponents on a nightly basis. He's a better shooter, passer (has an assist ratio of 14% to Thompsons 3.6% when Thompson had some of the best offensive finishers in the game on his team). He has less turnovers, shoots free throws at a 10% higher clip whilst taking more.
Thompson also played last year with the best player in the world and an elite point guard giving him substantially easy, open looks around the basket.

Again, Jared Sullinger isn't an All Star. Thompson may be mentally tougher, have better dietary discipline and less injury concern, but on the basketball court, Sullinger is the better player.
you can't actually say that Sullinger was only against starters and Thompson was only against backups given their minutes and season on the whole. 

Defensive rebound rate. Sully was 20.9 and Thompson was 19.7.  So Sully is slightly better, but Sully also played with a lot worse rebounders than Thompson.  Of course the difference on the offensive glass is massive at 4.4%. 
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2015, 11:07:44 AM »

Offline chambers

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Quote
The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.

So not true.

FG% for Thompson was 55%
FG% for Sullinger was 44%


8 RPG in  26.8 MPG for Thompson
7.6 RPG in 27.0 MPG Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Now in this blog, I realize, we always have the "but",  "if" excuse making club but these are facts.  He is not the better shooter or rebounder.  But Sully took threes?  He did it to himself and he is not that good at them.

Quote
I hate going back to these Sully arguments and all I said was that I personally think Sullinger is a superior player to Thompson, and most of us would gawk at giving Sully $10 million year.

Me too.

Quote
We knew Sully had a bad back that likely needed surgery at some point and we knew that when we drafted him.
He's a far superior offensive player and weapon on the offensive end than Thompson and a vastly superior shooter being top 10 in the NBA in jumpshots from 16 feet+.
He's also exactly one year younger.

I think enough with the excuses for this kid.   It is true, he had back issues, but it is also true, the surgery did not translate into improved play once performed.

I would argue the superior offense player is largely a myth but rather than Sullinger is the more versatle offensive player.  I would rather have a guy that plays within himself.  Thompson does not take ill advised threes, plays to his strengths.   That is an extremely important aspect of offense, knowing your limitations and your strengths.   I can't always say that of Sullinger, he wants to take hero shots ( poor option there ) and he takes poor threes.   Sullinger does a nice mid range, but he is poor long range shooter.  I think that the above being said, he has more offensive talent but he has squandered it by not being a professional and making poor decisions on the court.   

"But"  "IF" CBS wanted him to take that shot? His back was bad? Let the excuses fly as they always do.  I for one am sick of them, I also think there is a plethora of evidence that this young man contributes a lot to his basketball issues or compounded them with his lifestyle.

I really hope that he is serious about playing more inside this year because if he would be a much better shooter.  I also think his boards would go up.  Here is what Stevens recently said of him:

Quote
"We've done a lot of work," the coach said. "We've done some running, we've done all that stuff, and I think that he is running, especially in the running at the end, well. I think we all probably need to continue to get into game shape. And I don't expect anybody to be in game shape on Oct. 3. I think that's part of the process of getting ready. He's in a competition with a lot of guys for minutes, but he's a good player and he's done a lot of good things.

"I thought the other day (at the scrimmage) he didn't have the benefit of getting in the rhythm, because (he had) a couple of offensive fouls where, the one he had Kelly (Olynyk) sealed and probably would have been a layup otherwise. And then our guys doubled him. He was the only guy they doubled in the post and he made great plays to Tyler (Zeller) and got Tyler a couple of open looks. So he's playing pretty well, but again it's stiff competition at that spot."

An acknowledgement of his talent but also admitting that he might be the odd man out or expendable.

Thompson wants to get paid, I do not blame him his value is most likely never higher.   The sad thing with Sully, I am not sure the opposite is true.

Again Thompson's rebounds per 36 are against back up players. Smaller, poorer athletes. Sullinger's came as a starter in the NBA.
Sullingers 2 point FG% is also better than Thompson's and that includes all the jumpshots he takes- that Thompson is abysmal at.

You're saying he took threes and it's his fault. It was obviously a focus of Brad and Danny Ainge's to develop his three point shot. Just like the Bucks obviously told Giannis not to take threes last year.
 Brad Stevens even said that he gave Sully the green light to get those threes up.

I don't know if Sully will even make it past this year on our team. He's got a lot of mental and character flaws working against him, but I do feel it's the right thing to point out certain positive things about him.
 
 You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.
He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time.

Sully's a better defensive rebounder and has far more time on the court vs elite NBA rebounders, defenders and offensive opponents on a nightly basis. He's a better shooter, passer (has an assist ratio of 14% to Thompsons 3.6% when Thompson had some of the best offensive finishers in the game on his team). He has less turnovers, shoots free throws at a 10% higher clip whilst taking more.
Thompson also played last year with the best player in the world and an elite point guard giving him substantially easy, open looks around the basket.

Again, Jared Sullinger isn't an All Star. Thompson may be mentally tougher, have better dietary discipline and less injury concern, but on the basketball court, Sullinger is the better player.
you can't actually say that Sullinger was only against starters and Thompson was only against backups given their minutes and season on the whole. 

Defensive rebound rate. Sully was 20.9 and Thompson was 19.7.  So Sully is slightly better, but Sully also played with a lot worse rebounders than Thompson.  Of course the difference on the offensive glass is massive at 4.4%.

I didn't say Sully was only against starters, I said the majority of his time on the court was vs starting NBA players and the majority of Thompson's time was versus 2nd unit guys. That's completely true.
I think you'd find if Sully took the same point blank range shots that Thompson takes, his offensive rebounding numbers would be almost identical to Thompson's. He shoots threes and jumpshots that often keep him away from the basket. Thompson has one job: rebound. Sully has had the job of scoring, rebounding and facilitating.

Why are we having this argument? Sullinger is the superior player.
Doesn't mean he's an All Star, he simply better than a back up, role playing big man who plays with multiple NBA superstars.

The whole point of me bringing Sullinger up as a Thompson comparison is that I certainly wouldn't give Sully the money that Thompson wants, and thus would never give Thompson that amount.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2015, 11:41:30 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.

So not true.

FG% for Thompson was 55%
FG% for Sullinger was 44%


8 RPG in  26.8 MPG for Thompson
7.6 RPG in 27.0 MPG Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Now in this blog, I realize, we always have the "but",  "if" excuse making club but these are facts.  He is not the better shooter or rebounder.  But Sully took threes?  He did it to himself and he is not that good at them.

Quote
I hate going back to these Sully arguments and all I said was that I personally think Sullinger is a superior player to Thompson, and most of us would gawk at giving Sully $10 million year.

Me too.

Quote
We knew Sully had a bad back that likely needed surgery at some point and we knew that when we drafted him.
He's a far superior offensive player and weapon on the offensive end than Thompson and a vastly superior shooter being top 10 in the NBA in jumpshots from 16 feet+.
He's also exactly one year younger.

I think enough with the excuses for this kid.   It is true, he had back issues, but it is also true, the surgery did not translate into improved play once performed.

I would argue the superior offense player is largely a myth but rather than Sullinger is the more versatle offensive player.  I would rather have a guy that plays within himself.  Thompson does not take ill advised threes, plays to his strengths.   That is an extremely important aspect of offense, knowing your limitations and your strengths.   I can't always say that of Sullinger, he wants to take hero shots ( poor option there ) and he takes poor threes.   Sullinger does a nice mid range, but he is poor long range shooter.  I think that the above being said, he has more offensive talent but he has squandered it by not being a professional and making poor decisions on the court.   

"But"  "IF" CBS wanted him to take that shot? His back was bad? Let the excuses fly as they always do.  I for one am sick of them, I also think there is a plethora of evidence that this young man contributes a lot to his basketball issues or compounded them with his lifestyle.

I really hope that he is serious about playing more inside this year because if he would be a much better shooter.  I also think his boards would go up.  Here is what Stevens recently said of him:

Quote
"We've done a lot of work," the coach said. "We've done some running, we've done all that stuff, and I think that he is running, especially in the running at the end, well. I think we all probably need to continue to get into game shape. And I don't expect anybody to be in game shape on Oct. 3. I think that's part of the process of getting ready. He's in a competition with a lot of guys for minutes, but he's a good player and he's done a lot of good things.

"I thought the other day (at the scrimmage) he didn't have the benefit of getting in the rhythm, because (he had) a couple of offensive fouls where, the one he had Kelly (Olynyk) sealed and probably would have been a layup otherwise. And then our guys doubled him. He was the only guy they doubled in the post and he made great plays to Tyler (Zeller) and got Tyler a couple of open looks. So he's playing pretty well, but again it's stiff competition at that spot."

An acknowledgement of his talent but also admitting that he might be the odd man out or expendable.

Thompson wants to get paid, I do not blame him his value is most likely never higher.   The sad thing with Sully, I am not sure the opposite is true.

Again Thompson's rebounds per 36 are against back up players. Smaller, poorer athletes. Sullinger's came as a starter in the NBA.
Sullingers 2 point FG% is also better than Thompson's and that includes all the jumpshots he takes- that Thompson is abysmal at.

You're saying he took threes and it's his fault. It was obviously a focus of Brad and Danny Ainge's to develop his three point shot. Just like the Bucks obviously told Giannis not to take threes last year.
 Brad Stevens even said that he gave Sully the green light to get those threes up.

I don't know if Sully will even make it past this year on our team. He's got a lot of mental and character flaws working against him, but I do feel it's the right thing to point out certain positive things about him.
 
 You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.
He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time.

Sully's a better defensive rebounder and has far more time on the court vs elite NBA rebounders, defenders and offensive opponents on a nightly basis. He's a better shooter, passer (has an assist ratio of 14% to Thompsons 3.6% when Thompson had some of the best offensive finishers in the game on his team). He has less turnovers, shoots free throws at a 10% higher clip whilst taking more.
Thompson also played last year with the best player in the world and an elite point guard giving him substantially easy, open looks around the basket.

Again, Jared Sullinger isn't an All Star. Thompson may be mentally tougher, have better dietary discipline and less injury concern, but on the basketball court, Sullinger is the better player.
you can't actually say that Sullinger was only against starters and Thompson was only against backups given their minutes and season on the whole. 

Defensive rebound rate. Sully was 20.9 and Thompson was 19.7.  So Sully is slightly better, but Sully also played with a lot worse rebounders than Thompson.  Of course the difference on the offensive glass is massive at 4.4%.

I didn't say Sully was only against starters, I said the majority of his time on the court was vs starting NBA players and the majority of Thompson's time was versus 2nd unit guys. That's completely true.
I think you'd find if Sully took the same point blank range shots that Thompson takes, his offensive rebounding numbers would be almost identical to Thompson's. He shoots threes and jumpshots that often keep him away from the basket. Thompson has one job: rebound. Sully has had the job of scoring, rebounding and facilitating.

Why are we having this argument? Sullinger is the superior player.
Doesn't mean he's an All Star, he simply better than a back up, role playing big man who plays with multiple NBA superstars.

The whole point of me bringing Sullinger up as a Thompson comparison is that I certainly wouldn't give Sully the money that Thompson wants, and thus would never give Thompson that amount.
Where is the evidence that is completely true?  Counting the playoffs Sully started 49 games, Thompson started 30.  They played similar minutes though Thompson's exploded in the post season where he was a double double machine as a starter against stiff competition night in and night out. 

I'm sure you realize the two years before this last one, Thompson played in 164 games, he started all 164 games playing over 31 minutes a game.  He was actually a much better defensive rounder playing those increased minutes against starters.  Thompson is a far more efficient offensive player, though doesn't have the range Sully has. 

I'd rather have Thompson than Sully.  I think he is better.  He works harder on both ends of the court and the off season, he is a better defender and a better rebounder.  Sully certainly has more offensive range, but he is so inefficient he ruins whatever range advantage he has.
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Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2015, 01:04:43 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.  He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time

I don't hate him, let us make that clear.   But I did not fall for him like many here on the forums do.  I fully admit he is a good passer and a rebounder.   I dislike guys who are lazy and do not play D which he is one of those guys.   But I do not actively wish ill on him. 

It is patently absurd for you to make a claim that Thompson has worst lateral movement than Sullinger.   I have been pointing out his flaws since he was drafted and I wager I have seen more of him since I am from Ohio and able to watch tons of OSU basketball.  I dislike his attitude and was on to his character flaws well before it became popular.  But I never not acknowledged what he did well.  So call it hate if you must but it was never blind.   Which I can't say for those who love Sullinger.    They make claims he a good defender yet, are unable to post these stats or unwilling when asked.  Can ask you one question?   DO YOU EVER GET TIRED OF MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM?    I think of lot of his rests squarely on him.   He squandered his opportunity, he did not take care of his body.  His effort is not always consistent with his words or what is needed on the court.

I also live in Ohio and have the benefits of watching more CAVS games ( which I do not)  and reading about them in the local papers, hear about them on sports radio.   I prefer to watch the Celts, I am not even a passing Cavs fan, but I hear about them a lot.

I call BS that his production was against second units.   Love was hurt in seven games last year and played 33 MPG.   Therefore Thompson did not all his minutes at PF he played some at C.   Because he played 27 MPG.   It is truly amazing that you did not comprehend this with your assertion because your not a dumb guy by any means .  Love was hurt for the majority of the playoffs.  For a while, in the season, and I do not expect you to know this as your out of market would be my guess.   Blatt did not play Love in the fourth in some games.  The Cavs played a lot of small ball too.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

Like I said, those who support Sullinger are probably more blind than I am in my dislike of him.   Noticed that I admitted in the above post that he was better at scoring and more versatile.   I freely admitted this, I can't say the of the guys who support Sully in admitting his faults.   In fact, I will admit if I am wrong about something, something that a lot of guys here just won't do. 

Quote
I didn't say Sully was only against starters, I said the majority of his time on the court was vs starting NBA players and the majority of Thompson's time was versus 2nd unit guys. That's completely true.  I think you'd find if Sully took the same point blank range shots that Thompson takes, his offensive rebounding numbers would be almost identical to Thompson's. He shoots threes and jumpshots that often keep him away from the basket. Thompson has one job: rebound.

I think that would be the case as well, I think he would rebound better and probably be more efficient, I practically said this in my post in playing to his strengths.   But the problem is he does not play to his strengths.  He has said that he would this season but the fact is it may be too late. I think that no coach will endorse you missing shot after shot, some games he was 1-5.   They also are not going to say overtly negative stuff about him because at some point they may want to trade him.   The real issue is one guy does what he is good at, the other guy does not.

Quote
Sully has had the job of scoring, rebounding and facilitating.
Also, your making sound like he like he is a pojnt forward, while he is a good passer, he is not a point forward.  I would settle for a little less of facilitating and him running the court or defending.   Why have not those been part of his job up to this point?

Quote
He works harder on both ends of the court and the off season, he is a better defender and a better rebounder. 

I would settle for he works on both ends of the court.    You are playing D half the game, and Sully does not even try in this regard.   He also lacks the tools.  He was in the bottom of his class in lane agility and 3/4 sprint.  Combine that with "thinking he is the man" and lack of effort on D and it is a [dang]ing combination.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

It would be different if his positives outweighed his negatives but that is not always the case with Sully.   It happened a few games like the NO one and the CHI game, he was practically useless in back to back games though with his conditioning.   Sometimes talented guys do not pan out as pros.   He may prove me wrong and if it helps the C's I am all for it.

Do you think he is a good fit for CBS's system?

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Bottom line is we played well without him.   19-10 with Jonas playing some of his minutes.  A lot of that was due to IT being here.   But some of it was due to the fact, that we could run, lost a guy who did not play D.

Quote
Brad Stevens said that Jared Sullinger's conditioning has improved, but hinted that he still has some work to do.
"I think he has improved conditioning-wise," Stevens said. "He’s still, and I think I’ve heard him say this, that he still wants to continue to grow in that area." Sullinger has also reportedly looked a little rusty this week, but we should get a better idea of his progress during the preseason. Amir Johnson and David Lee are still the favorites to start, so Sullinger is only worth a late-round flier at the moment

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1960/jared-sullinger

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2015, 01:49:17 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Thompson's a better player than Sullinger. 

I'd say his limitations make him a more situational fit than Sullinger, but he's productive, athletic, and consistently healthy.  He's a huge asset for any team that has enough scoring and shooting to make up for his deficiencies.

The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.
Thompson is probably the best offensive rebounder in the world and is a better rebounder overall than Sullinger.  Thompson is a better defender as well.



disclaimer: I have no idea if Thompson actually is the best offensive rebounder in the world.
I also have no idea if Moranis is drunk right now.
Coincidence?

I rarely actually laugh in real life at things I "lol" at, but that image legitimately made me chuckle. TP

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2015, 05:48:47 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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That is a classic that image.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2015, 01:54:03 AM »

Offline chambers

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You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.  He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time

I don't hate him, let us make that clear.   But I did not fall for him like many here on the forums do.  I fully admit he is a good passer and a rebounder.   I dislike guys who are lazy and do not play D which he is one of those guys.   But I do not actively wish ill on him. 

It is patently absurd for you to make a claim that Thompson has worst lateral movement than Sullinger.   I have been pointing out his flaws since he was drafted and I wager I have seen more of him since I am from Ohio and able to watch tons of OSU basketball.  I dislike his attitude and was on to his character flaws well before it became popular.  But I never not acknowledged what he did well.  So call it hate if you must but it was never blind.   Which I can't say for those who love Sullinger.    They make claims he a good defender yet, are unable to post these stats or unwilling when asked.  Can ask you one question?   DO YOU EVER GET TIRED OF MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM?    I think of lot of his rests squarely on him.   He squandered his opportunity, he did not take care of his body.  His effort is not always consistent with his words or what is needed on the court.

I also live in Ohio and have the benefits of watching more CAVS games ( which I do not)  and reading about them in the local papers, hear about them on sports radio.   I prefer to watch the Celts, I am not even a passing Cavs fan, but I hear about them a lot.

I call BS that his production was against second units.   Love was hurt in seven games last year and played 33 MPG.   Therefore Thompson did not all his minutes at PF he played some at C.   Because he played 27 MPG.   It is truly amazing that you did not comprehend this with your assertion because your not a dumb guy by any means .  Love was hurt for the majority of the playoffs.  For a while, in the season, and I do not expect you to know this as your out of market would be my guess.   Blatt did not play Love in the fourth in some games.  The Cavs played a lot of small ball too.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

Like I said, those who support Sullinger are probably more blind than I am in my dislike of him.   Noticed that I admitted in the above post that he was better at scoring and more versatile.   I freely admitted this, I can't say the of the guys who support Sully in admitting his faults.   In fact, I will admit if I am wrong about something, something that a lot of guys here just won't do. 

Quote
I didn't say Sully was only against starters, I said the majority of his time on the court was vs starting NBA players and the majority of Thompson's time was versus 2nd unit guys. That's completely true.  I think you'd find if Sully took the same point blank range shots that Thompson takes, his offensive rebounding numbers would be almost identical to Thompson's. He shoots threes and jumpshots that often keep him away from the basket. Thompson has one job: rebound.

I think that would be the case as well, I think he would rebound better and probably be more efficient, I practically said this in my post in playing to his strengths.   But the problem is he does not play to his strengths.  He has said that he would this season but the fact is it may be too late. I think that no coach will endorse you missing shot after shot, some games he was 1-5.   They also are not going to say overtly negative stuff about him because at some point they may want to trade him.   The real issue is one guy does what he is good at, the other guy does not.

Quote
Sully has had the job of scoring, rebounding and facilitating.
Also, your making sound like he like he is a pojnt forward, while he is a good passer, he is not a point forward.  I would settle for a little less of facilitating and him running the court or defending.   Why have not those been part of his job up to this point?

Quote
He works harder on both ends of the court and the off season, he is a better defender and a better rebounder. 

I would settle for he works on both ends of the court.    You are playing D half the game, and Sully does not even try in this regard.   He also lacks the tools.  He was in the bottom of his class in lane agility and 3/4 sprint.  Combine that with "thinking he is the man" and lack of effort on D and it is a [dang]ing combination.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

It would be different if his positives outweighed his negatives but that is not always the case with Sully.   It happened a few games like the NO one and the CHI game, he was practically useless in back to back games though with his conditioning.   Sometimes talented guys do not pan out as pros.   He may prove me wrong and if it helps the C's I am all for it.

Do you think he is a good fit for CBS's system?

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Bottom line is we played well without him.   19-10 with Jonas playing some of his minutes.  A lot of that was due to IT being here.   But some of it was due to the fact, that we could run, lost a guy who did not play D.

Quote
Brad Stevens said that Jared Sullinger's conditioning has improved, but hinted that he still has some work to do.
"I think he has improved conditioning-wise," Stevens said. "He’s still, and I think I’ve heard him say this, that he still wants to continue to grow in that area." Sullinger has also reportedly looked a little rusty this week, but we should get a better idea of his progress during the preseason. Amir Johnson and David Lee are still the favorites to start, so Sullinger is only worth a late-round flier at the moment

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1960/jared-sullinger

I never said Sully has better lateral movement than Thompson, I said Thompson puts in effort on D but it's not his strong point.

No one is making excuses for Sullinger. There's a difference between making excuses and stating facts.
Everything I've said about Sully is a fact and on numerous occasions myself and others have completely agreed that he's got motivational/mental and disciplinary issues that are holding him back. You are adding in your personal opinions about his defense as if he's David Lee 2.0 which is, in my opinion completely unfair and unjustified. You think he's a lazy fat slob and therefore you equate that with the notion that because of his dietary issues/lack of discipline that he must be a lazy/bad defender.
This is your opinion. Simple as that.
For the fourth time in this thread, I'll say, once again, that Jared Sullinger is not perfect. The argument is that he's better than Tristan Thompson. That's it.
Just because Thompson has better discipline does not make him a better player.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

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Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2015, 02:04:58 AM »

Offline chambers

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The only thing that Thompson over Sullinger is Health and maybe defense.

So not true.

FG% for Thompson was 55%
FG% for Sullinger was 44%


8 RPG in  26.8 MPG for Thompson
7.6 RPG in 27.0 MPG Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Now in this blog, I realize, we always have the "but",  "if" excuse making club but these are facts.  He is not the better shooter or rebounder.  But Sully took threes?  He did it to himself and he is not that good at them.

Quote
I hate going back to these Sully arguments and all I said was that I personally think Sullinger is a superior player to Thompson, and most of us would gawk at giving Sully $10 million year.

Me too.

Quote
We knew Sully had a bad back that likely needed surgery at some point and we knew that when we drafted him.
He's a far superior offensive player and weapon on the offensive end than Thompson and a vastly superior shooter being top 10 in the NBA in jumpshots from 16 feet+.
He's also exactly one year younger.

I think enough with the excuses for this kid.   It is true, he had back issues, but it is also true, the surgery did not translate into improved play once performed.

I would argue the superior offense player is largely a myth but rather than Sullinger is the more versatle offensive player.  I would rather have a guy that plays within himself.  Thompson does not take ill advised threes, plays to his strengths.   That is an extremely important aspect of offense, knowing your limitations and your strengths.   I can't always say that of Sullinger, he wants to take hero shots ( poor option there ) and he takes poor threes.   Sullinger does a nice mid range, but he is poor long range shooter.  I think that the above being said, he has more offensive talent but he has squandered it by not being a professional and making poor decisions on the court.   

"But"  "IF" CBS wanted him to take that shot? His back was bad? Let the excuses fly as they always do.  I for one am sick of them, I also think there is a plethora of evidence that this young man contributes a lot to his basketball issues or compounded them with his lifestyle.

I really hope that he is serious about playing more inside this year because if he would be a much better shooter.  I also think his boards would go up.  Here is what Stevens recently said of him:

Quote
"We've done a lot of work," the coach said. "We've done some running, we've done all that stuff, and I think that he is running, especially in the running at the end, well. I think we all probably need to continue to get into game shape. And I don't expect anybody to be in game shape on Oct. 3. I think that's part of the process of getting ready. He's in a competition with a lot of guys for minutes, but he's a good player and he's done a lot of good things.

"I thought the other day (at the scrimmage) he didn't have the benefit of getting in the rhythm, because (he had) a couple of offensive fouls where, the one he had Kelly (Olynyk) sealed and probably would have been a layup otherwise. And then our guys doubled him. He was the only guy they doubled in the post and he made great plays to Tyler (Zeller) and got Tyler a couple of open looks. So he's playing pretty well, but again it's stiff competition at that spot."

An acknowledgement of his talent but also admitting that he might be the odd man out or expendable.

Thompson wants to get paid, I do not blame him his value is most likely never higher.   The sad thing with Sully, I am not sure the opposite is true.

Again Thompson's rebounds per 36 are against back up players. Smaller, poorer athletes. Sullinger's came as a starter in the NBA.
Sullingers 2 point FG% is also better than Thompson's and that includes all the jumpshots he takes- that Thompson is abysmal at.

You're saying he took threes and it's his fault. It was obviously a focus of Brad and Danny Ainge's to develop his three point shot. Just like the Bucks obviously told Giannis not to take threes last year.
 Brad Stevens even said that he gave Sully the green light to get those threes up.

I don't know if Sully will even make it past this year on our team. He's got a lot of mental and character flaws working against him, but I do feel it's the right thing to point out certain positive things about him.
 
 You hate Sully so much you're even saying that Tristan Thompson is a better basketball player which I just can't agree with.
He's a role player with a rebounding specialty who gets rebounds against 2nd units and putback dunks and dunks around the basket. He has effort on the defensive end especially in switches (because he's frequently targeted in the pick and roll) but he's still a huge target for switches like we saw in the NBA finals when the Warriors switched on to him almost every time.

Sully's a better defensive rebounder and has far more time on the court vs elite NBA rebounders, defenders and offensive opponents on a nightly basis. He's a better shooter, passer (has an assist ratio of 14% to Thompsons 3.6% when Thompson had some of the best offensive finishers in the game on his team). He has less turnovers, shoots free throws at a 10% higher clip whilst taking more.
Thompson also played last year with the best player in the world and an elite point guard giving him substantially easy, open looks around the basket.

Again, Jared Sullinger isn't an All Star. Thompson may be mentally tougher, have better dietary discipline and less injury concern, but on the basketball court, Sullinger is the better player.
you can't actually say that Sullinger was only against starters and Thompson was only against backups given their minutes and season on the whole. 

Defensive rebound rate. Sully was 20.9 and Thompson was 19.7.  So Sully is slightly better, but Sully also played with a lot worse rebounders than Thompson.  Of course the difference on the offensive glass is massive at 4.4%.

I didn't say Sully was only against starters, I said the majority of his time on the court was vs starting NBA players and the majority of Thompson's time was versus 2nd unit guys. That's completely true.
I think you'd find if Sully took the same point blank range shots that Thompson takes, his offensive rebounding numbers would be almost identical to Thompson's. He shoots threes and jumpshots that often keep him away from the basket. Thompson has one job: rebound. Sully has had the job of scoring, rebounding and facilitating.

Why are we having this argument? Sullinger is the superior player.
Doesn't mean he's an All Star, he simply better than a back up, role playing big man who plays with multiple NBA superstars.

The whole point of me bringing Sullinger up as a Thompson comparison is that I certainly wouldn't give Sully the money that Thompson wants, and thus would never give Thompson that amount.
Where is the evidence that is completely true?  Counting the playoffs Sully started 49 games, Thompson started 30.  They played similar minutes though Thompson's exploded in the post season where he was a double double machine as a starter against stiff competition night in and night out. 

I'm sure you realize the two years before this last one, Thompson played in 164 games, he started all 164 games playing over 31 minutes a game.  He was actually a much better defensive rounder playing those increased minutes against starters.  Thompson is a far more efficient offensive player, though doesn't have the range Sully has. 

I'd rather have Thompson than Sully.  I think he is better.  He works harder on both ends of the court and the off season, he is a better defender and a better rebounder.  Sully certainly has more offensive range, but he is so inefficient he ruins whatever range advantage he has.

Sullinger started 49 out of 58 games that he played in the regular season.
Thompson started 15 out the 82 games he played.
So in 49 games in the regular season, Sullinger played against NBA starters.
And in 15 games during the regular season, Thompson played against NBA starters.
It's pretty simple to work out that Sullinger played vs far more 'starter' opponents in their comparative 26-27 minutes per game on the court.

 You're claiming Sullinger is some kind of inefficient black hole compared to Thompson which is ludicrous to me and kind of proves my point that you're reaching for reasons to put Sully down. Sully's 2 point FG% is lower than Thompson's because he takes jump shots vs put back dunks and he also takes 4 more shots per game.
 
 Ok so he takes more jumpshots which are less efficient, but because of his ability to drain that jumpshot, he gives us spacing to penetrate and get better perimeter looks. This is why his assist ratio is infinitely better than Thompson's. His free throws are 10% higher than Thompsons. His jumpshot's are better than Thompson's and as mentioned earlier, he takes 4 more shots per game than Thompson (12 vs Thompson's 8 shots)... and when Thompson was taking 10 shots per game his 2 point FG% was worse than Sully's.
 The only thing he has done (which mainly began last season at the request of his coach) is start taking more three point attempts, which he shot at a very solid clip for 50% of his season. That skill takes seasons to acquire, and last season was the first season he was asked to add that skill to his game.
Anyway, we could go on forever, so we'll just have to agree to disagree guys.
I respect your opinions and can understand why you don't like him, I just think that your opinion of him on the court has been affected by your frustration with his perceived lack of off season work. The kid was our best player for quite some time and he's better than Tristan Thompson.
 Now if you'd prefer Thompson as a player because of his work ethic/role playing ability and 'reliability' then that's completely reasonable too.
 
 I just think Sully is the better, more versatile, more complete NBA player of the two, and I think that Thompson asking for that much money is simply ridiculous as an NBA garbage man. I mean seriously they are asking for a max contract of 18 million per year lol. I would cringe at giving Sullinger 10-12 million a year so you can see my problem with Thompson's request when I think Sully is better than him.
 Anyway, I'll save any further replies for when I feel the need to point out the positives that Sully brings to the Celtics in another thread- because there will undoubtedly be another one, and if I don't stop, this debate will not stop because of our differing opinions.
 Sullinger is starting to become the new Rondo of Celticsblog- the hyper polarizing semi veteran.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 05:51:14 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Thompson does not sign QO from Cavs
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2015, 03:15:06 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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While you barbarians have been arguing, Zachary was putting together a fine piece:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tristan-thompson-continues-his-poker-game-with-cleveland/

Especially like the label of "a bouncy mooch"
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