Author Topic: Does BS give IT the opportunity to start this season  (Read 14322 times)

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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2015, 12:29:03 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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This isn't hockey.  You don't swap out entire units.

Generally true.  However, when the talent on your team is pretty much equal in spots 3-12 in your rotation, there's really no reason not to do the hockey thing.

The way to gain an advantage with this team is to have a bunch of decent guys playing 18-30 minutes a night and just going full bore while they're out there.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you swap out one unit of 5 for another unit of 5, necessarily.

I do think IT and Turner should be a platoon, though.  I see no reason that they should ever share the floor.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2015, 12:41:31 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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My biggest gripe with starting IT is that I want my pg to get everyone involved to begin the game. Thomas often has the offense revolve around him, so starting him worries me in terms of setting the overall flow of the game.

That being said Brad Stevens most recent quote indicates that my opinion on Thomas is wrong.

Quote
“Isaiah is last on our team in field goal attempts through the four days of practice that we’ve statted. And [he] has completely been unbelievable on offense, which tells you all that he’s doing for everybody else,” said Stevens. “He’s playing very unselfish. He’s making the right read, regardless of situation, and he’s not forcing anything. He really played great point guard on offense the whole time.”

If we can start Crowder, Smart and Johnson with Thomas then the defense should be good enough around IT to make up for what he lacks on that end of the floor. The second unit might not be very good offensively without Thomas though, but if Lee can be the focal scorer of the 2nd unit I think that would be fine.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2015, 02:20:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'll be interested to see the lineup, but it surprises me how convinced everyone is that Crowder will start.

For a change, I completely agree with you.

I feel like Small Forward is by far our weakest position right now, and I don't think that either one of our potential candidates (Turner, Crowder, Jerebko) is clearly superior over any other.  They all bring different talents to the table, but ultimately I feel they are all about on par.  I think the guy who stats at SF is going to be whoever earns it in training camp, and whoever seems to fit best with the rest of the starting group.  That could very easily be Jerebko since he is the only one of the three who can both shoot AND defend.

Honestly, I think that people here have gotten excited watching Draymond Green surprise people over in Golden State, and now they are clinging to the hope that Crowder will make a similar leap - it's probably a fair enough dream to have since they are kinda similar players, but I just don't see it happening,
agree with both of you.  SF is easily our weakest position.  we don't have anyone that's close to starter-quality for that position.  that's even taking into account if the team had 4 other starter-quality players at the other positions (which we don't) who could cover for that player's weaknesses -- ala Kurt Rambis for the 80's Lakers.

I think Crowder's a solid role player and may end up earning it if he makes a bigger leap than can reasonably be expected this year but I'm thinking it'll be Turner starting for the same reason he started last year --> ease the ballhandling burden on Smart until he becomes a better PG because AB is useless in that regard.
I don't think Turner gets enough credit.  Everyone seems to love that we went on a run late last season, but everyone also seems to dismiss how important Turner was to that run.  He was putting up Rondo-esque numbers at the point-forward position.  Second half of the season he averaged 11 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists and 1.2 steals... He was arguably the best player on our team.  He's a versatile player.  I actually think he might be a borderline starter. 

The year prior he averaged 17.4 points, 6 rebounds, 3.7 assists and 1 steal in 54 starts for a garbage Philly team.  He's not a terrible shooter (43% overall and 80% from the line) which makes me hopeful he might be able to increase his range (only 28% from three last year).  If he could improve his three point shooting, he could be a pretty legit player. 

Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2015, 02:24:23 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't think Turner gets enough credit.  Everyone seems to love that we went on a run late last season, but everyone also seems to dismiss how important Turner was to that run.  He was putting up Rondo-esque numbers at the point-forward position.  Second half of the season he averaged 11 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists and 1.2 steals... He was arguably the best player on our team.  He's a versatile player.  I actually think he might be a borderline starter.

Turner can do a few things well.  He is a decent isolation player.  He has an OK midrange pullup shot.  He can run the pick and roll fairly well.

He's a mediocre defender, a poor shooter, and he turns the ball over a fair amount.  His rebounding is good as a guard but fairly poor as a wing.

I look at him as a backup point guard, kind of like Shaun Livingston.  In that role, I think he's an asset.  But you have to be willing to give him the keys to the offense while he's on the floor. 

For the Celts, he's a decent starting option so long as the other guys in the starting lineup are weak ball-handlers and the team's best ball-handler is a bench scorer.

All of that said, the fact that Turner was important to the team doesn't mean he's particularly good.  On a team that has a legitimate starting point guard, he's not worth playing more than 16-18 minutes a night.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2015, 02:28:05 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I don't think Turner gets enough credit.  Everyone seems to love that we went on a run late last season, but everyone also seems to dismiss how important Turner was to that run.  He was putting up Rondo-esque numbers at the point-forward position.  Second half of the season he averaged 11 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists and 1.2 steals... He was arguably the best player on our team.  He's a versatile player.  I actually think he might be a borderline starter.

Turner can do a few things well.  He is a decent isolation player.  He has an OK midrange pullup shot.  He can run the pick and roll fairly well.

He's a mediocre defender, a poor shooter, and he turns the ball over a fair amount.  His rebounding is good as a guard but fairly poor as a wing.

I look at him as a backup point guard, kind of like Shaun Livingston.  In that role, I think he's an asset.  But you have to be willing to give him the keys to the offense while he's on the floor. 

For the Celts, he's a decent starting option so long as the other guys in the starting lineup are weak ball-handlers and the team's best ball-handler is a bench scorer.
Funny, because when we brought in Turner my first thought was that he made Jeff Green expendable.  I saw them as a bit redundant and that having Turner to slot in at SF meant we'd see Green traded.  Not a lot of people agreed with me there, though.   Turner is 6'7 220... He might not be a traditional small forward, but considering we have munchkins like Thomas at PG and Bradley at SG, Turner slots in pretty well at SF in the lineup.  You can call Turner a point-forward, but Brad Stevens offense isn't too dependent on traditional positions. 

Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2015, 02:35:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  Turner is 6'7 220... He might not be a traditional small forward, but considering we have munchkins like Thomas at PG and Bradley at SG, Turner slots in pretty well at SF in the lineup.  You can call Turner a point-forward, but Brad Stevens offense isn't too dependent on traditional positions.

He's pretty bad defensively at SF, and he has very little value playing off the ball.

So yeah, you can call him a SF if you like.  The point is that his role in an offense is as the primary ball-handler.

If you have to lean on him in your starting lineup, that's not a good place to be. 

As for slotting him in at SF with "munchkins" at PG and SG, that's actually pretty bad, because Turner gives up a lot of strength at the SF position (witness him attempting to cover LeBron in the playoffs).  Putting him there means you're going small at all three positions.


My hope is that Smart shows significant improvement as a ball-handler this season and the team can swap out Turner at starting SF for a wing with good size, length, and spot-up shooting ability.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2015, 03:15:05 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2015, 03:25:52 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM

Fair point, but that truly is a very small sample size.  Looks like we're talking about 60ish minutes of game time, likely spread out over the entire second half of the season.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2015, 03:27:40 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM
I know you are correcting something someone said in an earlier point, but what do you think this information indicates?

I think this is an argument for bringing Turner off the bench with Thomas, rather than starting both.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2015, 05:26:52 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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If it means making the playoffs

Yes

Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2015, 05:31:31 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM
I know you are correcting something someone said in an earlier point, but what do you think this information indicates?

I think this is an argument for bringing Turner off the bench with Thomas, rather than starting both.
but that is just silly.  If you have a pairing that in every single grouping is above .500 than you want to start that pairing.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2015, 05:52:26 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM
I know you are correcting something someone said in an earlier point, but what do you think this information indicates?

I think this is an argument for bringing Turner off the bench with Thomas, rather than starting both.
but that is just silly.  If you have a pairing that in every single grouping is above .500 than you want to start that pairing.

Starting both would mean forcing Stevens to performing some interesting gymnastics with rotations to avoid bench lineups without any proven ball-handlers.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2015, 11:03:15 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM
I know you are correcting something someone said in an earlier point, but what do you think this information indicates?

I think this is an argument for bringing Turner off the bench with Thomas, rather than starting both.
but that is just silly.  If you have a pairing that in every single grouping is above .500 than you want to start that pairing.

Starting both would mean forcing Stevens to performing some interesting gymnastics with rotations to avoid bench lineups without any proven ball-handlers.
No it wouldn't. 
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2015, 01:49:12 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Last year, in every single lineup with Thomas and Turner, Boston had an expected win percentage above .500.  The Smart/Bradley/Turner wings produced 2 of the lowest expected win percentages last year.  I get these are smallish sample sizes, but the lineups with Thomas at the point and Turner at the SF were pretty effective lineups.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415BOS2.HTM
I know you are correcting something someone said in an earlier point, but what do you think this information indicates?

I think this is an argument for bringing Turner off the bench with Thomas, rather than starting both.
but that is just silly.  If you have a pairing that in every single grouping is above .500 than you want to start that pairing.

Starting both would mean forcing Stevens to performing some interesting gymnastics with rotations to avoid bench lineups without any proven ball-handlers.
No it wouldn't.


Alright, explain it then.
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Re: Does BS give IT the opprtunity to start this season
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2015, 04:48:01 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Only if he wants the opposing PG to have a career night offensively. IT's skilled and a good offensive player, but he's a liability on defense. It seems like starting two defensive guards is conducive to IT scoring more points & allowing fewer. If we're playing against R Westbrook, there's no way that starting IT over Marcus is a good idea.
Interesting fact:  Opposing PGs posted a lower PER against Isaiah (13.8) than they did against either Avery (15.6) or Smart (17.8).
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