Does BS give IT the opportunity to start this season

[clover]

IT is a high usage rate player. He needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective and to maximize his effectiveness he needs to score because his defense is bad. When he played for the C's last year IT's usage rate was over 32% which if he did that all year would put him in the top 5 in the league.

This type player will fit better with a second unit that can't score as well as a first starting unit. IT's usage rate just isn't compatible with Steven's offensive system as a starter. The ball has to move and everyone needs to be shooting. One player shouldn't be dominating the ball and the shooting.

I think he comes off the bench as an offensive spark and plays big minutes towards the end of halves and end of games where needing to get the "one" shot created is more important.

Agreed with all of the above.

In the starting lineup, the team can get by with Evan Turner serving as the primary pick and roll ball-handler, and when things break down, ET is a passable isolation scorer.  ET is more of a passer than IT, so he fits better with the starting lineup, and he's harder to take advantage of on defense (though he's not exactly Tony Allen).

I'd start them both as they are probably the two best players in Boston's guard/wing rotation.

That would leave the bench lineup without a proven pick and roll ball-handler, though, which is a big no-no.

Also, what exactly are IT and Turner good at when they aren't handling the ball?  Not a heck of a lot.

Turner is far from being one of the best players in the rotation, but he provides a necessary skillset, at least until Smart and / or Rozier turn become effective at running the pick and roll.

It could be interesting to see ET at the 3 again, as emergency training wheels for TR off the bench, as he takes his shot to learn the PG position this year.

[LarBrd33]

I'll be interested to see the lineup, but it surprises me how convinced everyone is that Crowder will start.   My guess is the starting lineup will either be:

PG - Smart
SG - Bradley
SF - Turner
PF - Lee
C - Amir

... or Sully starts at PF.   I know that the hope is that Smart takes the reigns at PG eventually, but I'm not convinced he can do it.  The team played really well with Turner taking a larger role in the second half of last season.  And as good as Thomas is, he's still a gimmicky micro-guard who doesn't really work as a starting PG unless paired with a larger guard... that entirely rules out a back court of Thomas + Bradley, imo.   I could maybe see Thomas + Smart starting, but I doubt we'll see Bradley get moved to the bench at the start of the season... if Bradley is the odd man out, he'll still begin the season as a starter so we can showcase him.  The season is long.   This is also one of the reasons I expect Turner to start...  you don't bench the guy you want to get rid of... especially considering all the momentum he built towards the end of last year.  It's counter to the entire "sell high" mentality that Ainge has.    Come to think of it, that might be why you'll see Sully start out of the gate over Lee...  I have a feeling the team doesn't want to keep Sully.  Here's my guess for starting lineup at gunpoint:

PG - Smart
SG - Bradley
SF - Turner
PF - Sully
C - Amir

Who knows, though.  This team has dozens of redundant mediocre parts and you could make a case on starting any of them.

[SCeltic34]

Well, there's this:

WALTHAM, Mass. -- Boston Celtics coach Brad Stevens has always been measured with his praise of players, especially in the early stages of training camp, when it would be easy to overhype his charges.

Which is why it was notable that Stevens offered such high praise for point guard Isaiah Thomas before Thursday's practice session at the team's training center.

"Isaiah is last on our team in field goal attempts through the four days of practice that we’ve statted. And [he] has completely been unbelievable on offense, which tells you all that he’s doing for everybody else," said Stevens. "He’s playing very unselfish. He’s making the right read, regardless of situation, and he’s not forcing anything. He really played great point guard on offense the whole time."

That Thomas is spearheading Boston's offensive attack should come as no surprise. The Celtics owned an offensive rating of 109.2 points per 100 possessions -- the best mark on the team -- when Thomas was on the court after his late-February arrival last season. Boston's rating dipped more than nine points per 100 possessions without him on the court in that span.

But Thomas is typically regarded as a scorer after averaging 19 points in 26 minutes per game over 21 regular-season appearances for the Celtics. What's often overshadowed is that he averaged more assists per 36 minutes (7.5) than at any other point in his career, once again hammering home his impact on Boston's offense as a whole when he was on the court.

Stevens said he has never asked Thomas to put more of a focus on creating, but that he has simply stressed the importance of read-and-react basketball to all of his players.

"The thing that I’ve asked out of him is the same that you’d ask about anybody -- if there’s a basketball play that’s happening, the game is going to tell you what to do and you’ve got to make the reads," said Stevens. "We spent a lot more time, even in our first four practices, on reading and reacting off of each other -- more of in a constant-movement, somewhat-random-yet-organized manner, so you know where people are going to be, but it’s not going to be exact time and again. And you just have to make basketball reads. Sometimes they are going to be backed up off of [Thomas], and he’s going to be able to score; sometimes he’s going to be able to blow by them and get to the rim and make shots; sometimes he’s going to have to make the right read for the other guy.

"What happened the other night [during Boston's scrimmages at the team's open practice] was, [Thomas] got a couple of his shots in transition, but he started the game by finding spaces because everybody was pulled in; [Thomas' team] ended the game by Amir Johnson laying the ball in, because everybody was extended out because the spacers had already made shots. That’s kinda the way the team works and his task will be continuing to make the right reads."

The Celtics operated that scrimmage with Thomas starting alongside Jae Crowder, Jonas Jerebko, Kelly Olynyk and Johnson. That's a combination that features two of Boston's most versatile defenders, both capable of spacing the floor with their 3-point shooting; a big that likewise stretches the floor; and the team's best pick-and-roll guy. Stevens has stressed that he won't over-complicate the offense when Thomas is on the court because of his ability to make the right plays in simple spread pick-and-roll sets.

Even still, Thomas has expressed a desire to diversify his offensive arsenal this season and said he spent much of the offseason watching film of Steve Nash.

"I got a lot of one-foot shots that I’ve been working on, which extends to the 3-point line," said Thomas, who was working on one-footed foul-line floaters before practice Tuesday. "And I know the first time I do it, [reporters] are going to be like, ‘What the hell is he doing?’ But I definitely worked on it. I’ve been working on that all summer. I ‘ve just been trying to figure out ways to continue to get better and continue to be the best player I can possibly be."

The biggest challenge for Thomas and the Celtics is figuring out how to maintain their offensive output when teams put an intense focus on Thomas, much like the Cleveland Cavaliers did during last year's first-round sweep (Thomas averaged 17.5 points per game in elevated minutes, but shot just 33.3 percent from the field and 16.7 percent from beyond the 3-point line).

Crowder, who paired often with Thomas as part of Boston's dominant second unit last season, acknowledged a need to find other ways to generate points when teams take away the pick-and-roll game.

"We came to a point last year where Cleveland took away his pick-and-roll and trapped him every time. So it made us adjust," said Crowder. "I’ve talked to him about it and our way of adjusting is him trying to find other guys and trying to make a play for him -- not necessarily [Thomas] making a play for us each and every time."

Added Crowder: "We’re just trying to adjust because, when we got to the playoffs, they adjusted to him and adjusted to what he brought to our team, and that’s him playing off pick-and-rolls. When they tried to take that away from him, we’re trying not to be just one-dimensional at that point."

Much of the preseason focus on Thomas has revolved around whether he might elevate to a starting role this season -- a question that invariably pops up in any interview he conducts. Stevens has stressed that his focus is more on finding pairings that work best together and he'll worry about how to get everybody minutes from there. For his part, Thomas has repeated often that, "As long as I’m out there playing and getting the minutes that I deserve, I’m all for [any role]. I’m all for the team and whatever it takes to win. That’s an honest answer; that’s real."

There are lingering concerns about how Thomas would fare, defensively, as a starter as his size can create matchup troubles (though, his defensive rating last season was 101.9 when he was on the court and a versatile cast around him helped limit his troubles).

What's obvious from last season and becoming clearer with Stevens' comments Tuesday is that Thomas is the straw that stirs the drink. He was Boston's final player introduced at Tuesday's scrimmage -- the sort of spot typically reserved for a team's best player.

Regardless of how he's utilized, it's obvious that Thomas is going to spend a lot of time on the floor this season. And the Celtics are certain he'll make those around him better when he is.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4720466/brad-stevens-on-isaiah-thomas-unbelievable-start-to-camp

Not surprisingly, IT is among the best players so far in training camp.  If he continues to make the game easier for others and make the C's offense as efficient as he did last season, he deserves to start.  He has better bigs to run pick and roll this year in Lee and Amir, and I can guarantee that at least one of those two players will be in the starting lineup.  If his usage rate is high, so be it.  I want it to be high.  He's our best player.

If IT does start, I want him paired with Smart.  IT and Bradley is too small of a backcourt combo - this is not something I'm overly concerned about for the regular season, but come playoff time it will be an issue.  Smart may not shoot as well as Bradley, but his intangibles cannot be overlooked.  One play that comes to mind last season is when Smart made an excellent defensive rotation to contest a 3 pointer, then ran back to the paint to box out the opposing team's center.  The shot was missed and the Celtics ended up with the rebound.

I don't like the idea of starting Smart and Bradley together unless ET is in the lineup at SF.  Not enough proven ball handling and playmaking ability between those two.

[Boris Badenov]

I'd like to see him start.

The argument about him being better off the bench is empty - there's no apples-to-apples statistical support for that claim.

On the other hand he's indisputably the best scorer on the team, and he might even be our best point guard (which isn't a high bar, but nonetheless...).

Other good coaches have found ways to cover defensive limitations of their starters.

He wants to start.

If he stinks, bring him back to the bench, and he and everyone else will be more comfortable with that being his long-term role.

We're not good enough to avoid experimentation to learn about players' strengths and weaknesses.

Give it a shot.

[chambers]

There is no way Olynyk or Sullinger should start over Lee and Zeller.

why's that exactly?

[GetLucky]

I'd like to see him start.

The argument about him being better off the bench is empty - there's no apples-to-apples statistical support for that claim.

On the other hand he's indisputably the best scorer on the team, and he might even be our best point guard (which isn't a high bar, but nonetheless...).

Other good coaches have found ways to cover defensive limitations of their starters.

He wants to start.

If he stinks, bring him back to the bench, and he and everyone else will be more comfortable with that being his long-term role.

We're not good enough to avoid experimentation to learn about players' strengths and weaknesses.

Give it a shot.

You are aware that Boston is the town in which Daniel Bard attempted to become a starting pitcher, right?

[crimson_stallion]

I'd like to see him start.

The argument about him being better off the bench is empty - there's no apples-to-apples statistical support for that claim.

I don't think the argument is more a case of fit / stategy than anything.

For example, I like the idea of putting a really physical lineup on the court to start the game (e.g. Smart, Bradley, Crowder, Sully, Johnson) to go out there and wear opponents down...

Then once the opponents are physically drained and mentally frustrated, bring in the offensive firepower (e.g. Thomas, Turner, Jerebko, Lee/Olynyk, Zeller) and attack them while they're down.

For that reason, I just like the way Thomas 'fits' with that second unit.

[crimson_stallion]

I'll be interested to see the lineup, but it surprises me how convinced everyone is that Crowder will start.

For a change, I completely agree with you.

I feel like Small Forward is by far our weakest position right now, and I don't think that either one of our potential candidates (Turner, Crowder, Jerebko) is clearly superior over any other.  They all bring different talents to the table, but ultimately I feel they are all about on par.  I think the guy who stats at SF is going to be whoever earns it in training camp, and whoever seems to fit best with the rest of the starting group.  That could very easily be Jerebko since he is the only one of the three who can both shoot AND defend.

Honestly, I think that people here have gotten excited watching Draymond Green surprise people over in Golden State, and now they are clinging to the hope that Crowder will make a similar leap - it's probably a fair enough dream to have since they are kinda similar players, but I just don't see it happening,

[tarheelsxxiii]

Absolutely no expectation Crowder makes a Green-type leap. He made a huge leap from his time in Dallas... I'd imagine that, his grit, and defensive abilities are what people latch onto. I'd much prefer to move IT to the starting line-up and let Turner lead the 2nd unit, at this point. If Smart ends up lacking the skills to run PG, that's fine ... but I'd prefer to move on from Turner at a creator/ballhandler asap. Yes, IT is a career 2nd unit, offensive sparkplug... but we're in no position to define careers, and inserting him into the starting line-up makes better use of Lee and Amir in the PnR as well.

[slamtheking]

I'll be interested to see the lineup, but it surprises me how convinced everyone is that Crowder will start.

For a change, I completely agree with you.

I feel like Small Forward is by far our weakest position right now, and I don't think that either one of our potential candidates (Turner, Crowder, Jerebko) is clearly superior over any other.  They all bring different talents to the table, but ultimately I feel they are all about on par.  I think the guy who stats at SF is going to be whoever earns it in training camp, and whoever seems to fit best with the rest of the starting group.  That could very easily be Jerebko since he is the only one of the three who can both shoot AND defend.

Honestly, I think that people here have gotten excited watching Draymond Green surprise people over in Golden State, and now they are clinging to the hope that Crowder will make a similar leap - it's probably a fair enough dream to have since they are kinda similar players, but I just don't see it happening,

agree with both of you.  SF is easily our weakest position.  we don't have anyone that's close to starter-quality for that position.  that's even taking into account if the team had 4 other starter-quality players at the other positions (which we don't) who could cover for that player's weaknesses -- ala Kurt Rambis for the 80's Lakers.

I think Crowder's a solid role player and may end up earning it if he makes a bigger leap than can reasonably be expected this year but I'm thinking it'll be Turner starting for the same reason he started last year --> ease the ballhandling burden on Smart until he becomes a better PG because AB is useless in that regard.

[Rosco917]

I'm sure IT is trying to make a case in CBS's eyes to start. Two things bother me on the subject of IT starting.

First is his defense, mostly because of his size, is certainly questionable. Everyone can shoot over him, post him up, or run him into a high screens and just loose him. If you extend his minutes against the opposing teams starters, it's sure to be a weakness that is exploited, and planned for. They'll plan to make IT play defense.

Also, wear and tear... as the season moves on it will take a toll on his 5-8" 170 lb. frame. The C's will have no real spark off the bench.

While IT coming off the bench is more unpredictable, he's fresh and rested, in attack mode, against the opposing teams second unit, or tired starting defense. He can change the flow of the game putting the opposing team on their heals.

I like him in short spurts, during the game. As soon as he enters, the opposing team has to make adjustments on the fly, not as easy as planning for his game as a starter.


 

[trickybilly]

I'm sure IT is trying to make a case in CBS's eyes to start. Two things bother me on the subject of IT starting.

First is his defense, mostly because of his size, is certainly questionable. Everyone can shoot over him, post him up, or run him into a high screens and just loose him. If you extend his minutes against the opposing teams starters, it's sure to be a weakness that is exploited, and planned for. They'll plan to make IT play defense.

Also, wear and tear... as the season moves on it will take a toll on his 5-8" 170 lb. frame. The C's will have no real spark off the bench.

While IT coming off the bench is more unpredictable, he's fresh and rested, in attack mode, against the opposing teams second unit, or tired starting defense. He can change the flow of the game putting the opposing team on their heals.

I like him in short spurts, during the game. As soon as he enters, the opposing team has to make adjustments on the fly, not as easy as planning for his game as a starter.


 

But doing things 'on the fly' can be done at any time by coach. Each team will have plans for him on both ends whenever his minutes are.

[Moranis]

IT is a high usage rate player. He needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective and to maximize his effectiveness he needs to score because his defense is bad. When he played for the C's last year IT's usage rate was over 32% which if he did that all year would put him in the top 5 in the league.

This type player will fit better with a second unit that can't score as well as a first starting unit. IT's usage rate just isn't compatible with Steven's offensive system as a starter. The ball has to move and everyone needs to be shooting. One player shouldn't be dominating the ball and the shooting.

I think he comes off the bench as an offensive spark and plays big minutes towards the end of halves and end of games where needing to get the "one" shot created is more important.

Agreed with all of the above.

In the starting lineup, the team can get by with Evan Turner serving as the primary pick and roll ball-handler, and when things break down, ET is a passable isolation scorer.  ET is more of a passer than IT, so he fits better with the starting lineup, and he's harder to take advantage of on defense (though he's not exactly Tony Allen).

I'd start them both as they are probably the two best players in Boston's guard/wing rotation.

That would leave the bench lineup without a proven pick and roll ball-handler, though, which is a big no-no.

Also, what exactly are IT and Turner good at when they aren't handling the ball?  Not a heck of a lot.

Turner is far from being one of the best players in the rotation, but he provides a necessary skillset, at least until Smart and / or Rozier turn become effective at running the pick and roll.

This isn't hockey.  You don't swap out entire units. 

[CelticsFanFromNYC]

IT is a high usage rate player. He needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective and to maximize his effectiveness he needs to score because his defense is bad. When he played for the C's last year IT's usage rate was over 32% which if he did that all year would put him in the top 5 in the league.

This type player will fit better with a second unit that can't score as well as a first starting unit. IT's usage rate just isn't compatible with Steven's offensive system as a starter. The ball has to move and everyone needs to be shooting. One player shouldn't be dominating the ball and the shooting.

I think he comes off the bench as an offensive spark and plays big minutes towards the end of halves and end of games where needing to get the "one" shot created is more important.

Agreed with all of the above.

In the starting lineup, the team can get by with Evan Turner serving as the primary pick and roll ball-handler, and when things break down, ET is a passable isolation scorer.  ET is more of a passer than IT, so he fits better with the starting lineup, and he's harder to take advantage of on defense (though he's not exactly Tony Allen).

I'd start them both as they are probably the two best players in Boston's guard/wing rotation.

That would leave the bench lineup without a proven pick and roll ball-handler, though, which is a big no-no.

Also, what exactly are IT and Turner good at when they aren't handling the ball?  Not a heck of a lot.

Turner is far from being one of the best players in the rotation, but he provides a necessary skillset, at least until Smart and / or Rozier turn become effective at running the pick and roll.

This isn't hockey.  You don't swap out entire units.

With IT and Turner on the court together someone isn't going to be able to contribute efficiently. I'm pretty sure in the same line up IT gets the ball handling privileges. Turner  isn't great off ball imo and sure others see that. ET helped out  tons last year. ONE OF THESE TWO WILL BE IN THE STARTING LINEUP AS SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE BALL HANDLER

[Celtics4ever]

No.   We need the firepower in the second unit, and the sparkplug effect.