Jae's numbers before C's 4pts 2rb. Jones 4pts 2rb

[KG Living Legend]

 Crowder last year with the Mavs 4.6 ppg 2.5rpg on .414% career from the field.

 Perry Jones 4.3 ppg 1.8 rpg .420% for his career.

 Very similar numbers. Crowder brings much more defense to the table, but Jones is 2 years younger and he's certainly not playing behind Durant anymore, with one of the brightest coaches in the league. And IF it works out for him here we have one of the rarest roses that could start for us at SF at 6'10" tall that runs like a dear and jumps like a gazelle.
 I'll admit I haven't liked Jones's game much thus far, but If CBS can get the most out of him it's too good to pass up. And man do we need an offensive SF.

[PhoSita]

[KG Living Legend]

 With Crowder already onboard. If he can just get the aggressive offensive player out of Jones the Celts could be straight chilling..

[hwangjini_1]

cripes, dont we already have multiple threads saying virtually the same thing?

mods, could you fold this one into one of those threads?

[marlon.oddo]

For one thing, I don't think I've seen similar threads to this one.  OP makes a good comparison.  Both players didn't have impressive stats, primarily because they didn't play much.  Crowder only averaged 7.7 PPG and 3.6 RPG for the year, so let's not get carried away.  Getting Jones was a smart move by Danny-didn't cost us much to take a look at him.  If he blossoms, he becomes a steal.  If not, no big shakes. 

It would be odd that during a time when the league is going smaller, that we might have a 6'10" SF but maybe it would work out.  We definitely need some athleticism but it's production that really matters.

[D.o.s.]

TP.

[KG Living Legend]

For one thing, I don't think I've seen similar threads to this one.  OP makes a good comparison.  Both players didn't have impressive stats, primarily because they didn't play much.  Crowder only averaged 7.7 PPG and 3.6 RPG for the year, so let's not get carried away.  Getting Jones was a smart move by Danny-didn't cost us much to take a look at him.  If he blossoms, he becomes a steal.  If not, no big shakes. 

It would be odd that during a time when the league is going smaller, that we might have a 6'10" SF but maybe it would work out.  We definitely need some athleticism but it's production that really matters.

 TP to you, for moral support. If I'm betting money on it I don't think Perry makes a big impact.
 What I'm saying is he's worth the look of dumping someone else.

[crimson_stallion]

But is Crowder REALLY that much better a defender?

Defense is hard to compare as I didn't really get to see much of Jones (hence I can't do eye test comparison) and defensive statistics are more difficult to analyse than offensive ones.

Looking at the Defensive RPM Crowder had an average rating of around -0.5 while Jones had a poor rating of around -2 or thereabouts.  However if you look at the previous season (2013/14) Jones' rating was up somewhere between +0.5 and -0.5 so he was right around the same range as Crowder (and not far off guys like Lebron and Durant) in terms of defensive impact.

I'd be interested to see other numbers like opponent FG%, Opponent PER, etc.  I just don't know where you find such information!

Sorry as I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, but I'm not sure I get this?

To my understanding both Crowder and Jones were buried on the bench for their teams, and so both had limited opportunities to produce on playoffs teams.  Isn't the context of PJ3 pretty similar to the context of pre-Celtics Crowder?

[crimson_stallion]

It would be odd that during a time when the league is going smaller, that we might have a 6'10" SF but maybe it would work out.  We definitely need some athleticism but it's production that really matters.

I'm not sure the league is going 'smaller' so much.  I think it's more a case that the NBA is going towards the type of skills that are normally associated with smaller players.

For example, the NBA is moving towards bigs who have skills like:

* The lateral mobility to defend smaller / quicker players (for switching on P&Rs)
* The ability to step out and hit 3's and long 2's (for stretching the floor)
* The ability to pass (for better team ball movement)
* The ability to dribble (for creating mismatches)

Skills like this have traditionally been more common in smaller players, and as a result there has been a tendency for teams to play smaller guys at those positions - but it's more a result of skill set rather than actual size.

While PJ3 has the size of an old-school PF / C (6'11", 235 lbs) he has the quickness and lateral mobility to stick with quicker small forwards and probably even most guards, and he also has the ability to step out and hit the open three (not consistently, but the potential is there). 

My only concerns with Jones is that he seems to lack both ball handling ability and passing instincts. 

Honestly, it's pretty scary to me how much he and Jeff Green have in common:

1) Freak length vs athleticism
2) Quickness to defend SGs, SFs and PFs
3) Capable but not outstanding outside shot
4) Limited passing and ball handling capabilities
5) Inconsistent motor / work ethic

It's almost uncanny.

That said, if you can get a 6'11" Jeff Green for that price ($2m in cap space and a roster spot, with a bonus 2nd round pick thrown in) you don't say no.

My hope is that PJ3 can go past the Jeff Green level and reach closer to a DeMarr Derozan level (a guy who also has similar strengths and weaknesses to Jeff Green - but with a more consistent motor and better passing/ball handling skills). Whether he can get there I don't know.

[Boris Badenov]

Sorry as I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, but I'm not sure I get this?

To my understanding both Crowder and Jones were buried on the bench for their teams, and so both had limited opportunities to produce on playoffs teams.  Isn't the context of PJ3 pretty similar to the context of pre-Celtics Crowder?

Well, part of the context is that Crowder just signed a $32 million 4 year contract while OKC paid another team just so they could get rid of Jones.

That seems pretty different to me, and it's based on the talent evaluations of actual GMs, who are a lot smarter than we are about this stuff. I'd rather base my comparison on that than some superficial stats-based similarity.

And even there, the statement seems to be "Perry Jones is not too much worse offensively than this other pretty bad offensive player." And even there Crowder actually beats Jones fairly handily once you dig deeper into the numbers, and more so when you look at measures that track a player's total impact on both ends of the floor.

[Eja117]

 Crowder last year with the Mavs 4.6 ppg 2.5rpg on .414% career from the field.

 Perry Jones 4.3 ppg 1.8 rpg .420% for his career.

 Very similar numbers. Crowder brings much more defense to the table, but Jones is 2 years younger and he's certainly not playing behind Durant anymore, with one of the brightest coaches in the league. And IF it works out for him here we have one of the rarest roses that could start for us at SF at 6'10" tall that runs like a dear and jumps like a gazelle.
 I'll admit I haven't liked Jones's game much thus far, but If CBS can get the most out of him it's too good to pass up. And man do we need an offensive SF.

Here are the numbers that are very very dissimilar.....despite being drafted in the same draft Crowder has played in 238 games (almost every single game in his career) to Perry's 143.  In those games Crowder played almost 18 minutes a game to Perry's 11.75. 

Crowder plays. Perry doesn't.

[PhoSita]

Jae Crowder earned playing time for Rick Carlisle on a good team.

Perry Jones got buried on the bench by Scott Brooks on an injury riddled team that had Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka, and basically nobody else.

[KG Living Legend]

 He didn't earn a whole lotta time that's for sure.

[crimson_stallion]

Well, part of the context is that Crowder just signed a $32 million 4 year contract while OKC paid another team just so they could get rid of Jones.

That seems pretty different to me, and it's based on the talent evaluations of actual GMs, who are a lot smarter than we are about this stuff. I'd rather base my comparison on that than some superficial stats-based similarity.

Tell that to the Detroit Pistons fans - how much did Villenueva and Gordon get paid again?

How much are the Nets still paying Joe Johnson and Brook Lopez?

How much were we paying Gerald Wallace and Kris Humphreys only two seasons prior?

How much are Dallas paying Chandler Parsons now?

How much did Perk get paid by OKC?

Mmm, judging a player's ability / potential based on salary rather than objective statistical contributions.  A dangerous game.

It's also worth noting the 'context' of those signings.

Crowder was a free agent, Jerebko was a free agent.  We signed those guys largely because there was nobody better really available, and we had cap space to burn.  If we had a shot at higher calibre free agent Small Forwards then chances are that one (or both) of those guys wouldn't have been signed. 

On the other hand OKC traded Jones to us for nothing for the same reason as the Warriors traded Lee to us for nothing - because they couldn't give the players the role/minutes they deserve, and because they wanted to minimise luxury tax payments.  OKC's luxury tax dropped from $24.6M to $19.5M by removing Jones' contact. 

Remember that this is the same OKC team who traded James Harden to the Rockets for the very same reason - to save on Luxury Tax.

And even there, the statement seems to be "Perry Jones is not too much worse offensively than this other pretty bad offensive player." And even there Crowder actually beats Jones fairly handily once you dig deeper into the numbers, and more so when you look at measures that track a player's total impact on both ends of the floor.

This is true, but then Jones was also spend 2 of his 3 seasons buried behind a guy who is a top 5 (arguably top 2) player in the league, and spent much of his third season injured.

In the first 5 or 6 games that Jones started in place of Durant, his offensive stats were better than anything I've seen Crowder put up over any 5-6 game stretch last season.  Then he got hurt, he missed significant time, and struggled when he came back.  You expect that from a guy who's coming back from an injury and who has barely gotten any playing time.

Here are the numbers that are very very dissimilar.....despite being drafted in the same draft Crowder has played in 238 games (almost every single game in his career) to Perry's 143.  In those games Crowder played almost 18 minutes a game to Perry's 11.75. 

Crowder plays. Perry doesn't.

Are you serious?

You're trying to use the number of games played as an indication of who is a better player, and completely ignoring the fact that Jones has missed numerous games as a result of injury?

Then you're using minutes per game as proof of Crowder being a better player, when Crowder has only averaged 18 MPG for his career (vs 12 MPG for Jones)?

That's hardly a substantial difference in playing time when you consider that Jones was backing up Kevin Durant and Serge Ibaka, while Crowder was backing up a >34 year old Dirk Nowitzki (who has been limited to around 32 MPG over those three seasons) and Shaun Marion/Chandler Parsons?

I think it's pretty obvious that there are going to be more minutes available at SF/PF for that Dallas team then there would be on for those Thunder teams...

The only exception would be of course last season thanks to Durant's injury, but then (as mentioned before) Jones also got injured last year - and missed about half the season.

The context here does nothing to indicate Jae got more minutes because he was more worthy of them.  He was just backing up guys who were less 'high profile' at that point in their careers.

Jae Crowder earned playing time for Rick Carlisle on a good team.

Perry Jones got buried on the bench by Scott Brooks on an injury riddled team that had Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka, and basically nobody else.

Again, your forgot to mention that Perry Jones was, himself, injured for a good portion of the season. 

He was playing around 25 - 30 minutes over the first 6 games of the season and played very well - it wasn't until he returned from injury that his minutes (understandably) were much more limited.

Whether his minutes were limited after that because of the injury or because of his performance is a question only the coach can answer, but said coach seemed to have no problem putting him on the court for > 30 minutes prior to the injury....so I'm going to assume the injury played a part. 

Also what you guys are bringing up about lack of minutes only helps Jones' case, and the level of unknown here only increased his potential since we really have no idea what he'd be capable of if given significant minutes over an extended period of time.  The fact that he's only 23 (vs 25 for Crowder) only adds to that. 

While Jones has had very limited opportunities to show what he can do, Crowder (especially after the time in Boston) has got a pretty strong opportunity last year to show exactly what type of player he is, and how high his ceiling is - and IMHO it doesn't seem to be very high. I think he pretty much is who he is, and while he will no doubt improve slightly over time in all areas of his game, I doubt he'll ever be much more than a nice role player. 

Jones could become more than that -but I'm not hugely confident that this will happen.  I feel the upside is there, but in all honesty his general attitude / motor leaves me skeptical about whether he'll ever realise that potential. 

That said I try to keep an open mind, and I've seen Brad do some pretty amazing things with young talent thus far.  I'm giving him a chance because I feel everybody deserves that chance.  I wouldn't give him more than one year though - if he's still completely unproven by the end of the season, then I wouldn't waste any more time on the project.

In all honestly, I must admit that i feel like Crowder is really heavily overrated by Celtics fan.  I love Crowder because I love his attitude and his work ethic, and his willingness to do the dirty work.  It's the same reason I loved guys like Mickeal Pietrus, Kendrick Perkins and Marquis Daniels.  But none of those guys were ever game changers - they were just guys who played with a lot of heart, and as a result were able to make the most of marginal talent.  I don't see Crowder as being any different.  I think he's a guy who is a bench player for any serious playoff team, who can scrape by as a starter on some wannabe playoff teams.  I don't see him ever becoming much more than that.

This is why I don't have too much trouble believing that Jones could be as good a player as Crowder.  Not because I think Jones has superstar potential, just because I really don't think Crowder is all that great.  It's not exactly setting the bar high...

[Endless Paradise]

Jae Crowder earned playing time for Rick Carlisle on a good team.

Perry Jones got buried on the bench by Scott Brooks on an injury riddled team that had Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka, and basically nobody else.

And even then, Serge was out for the last 18 games of the season.