Author Topic: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger  (Read 5666 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 08:25:34 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
I'm not enthusiastic about our ability to come to terms with Sully on an extension.  I just think the team doesn't have enough confidence in him and he's going to want to get the biggest deal he can. 

Fortunately, I'm not a big fan of Sully as a Celtic so I'm ok with a deal being unlikely.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 08:53:57 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17833
  • Tommy Points: 2661
  • bammokja
Offer Sully 3 years at $8 million per, or 2 years at $10 million per.
perhaps, but that may be low in this new brave nba cap world. usually when you pay for short contract years you have to jack up the price.

bradley made similar to the first figure and that was under the old system.

I agree about the Brave New NBA Cap World, but Sullinger is one player I wouldn't be willing to extend myself for.  The weight and motivation issues worry me.  Low-ball him on annual value, or low-ball him on years.  Otherwise, no extension.
good points. yet, sully is seductive, isnt he? if sully had the discipline and drive of other players such as smart, he really could put up 20 and 10 for years. therein lies the temptation. the physical talent is there, but is the mental drive there as well?

out of college i thought he played a tough brand of basketball and was a bull down low. he played mean and he played physical basketball. now? i dont know.

that is the gamble and calculation danny has to make. i bet stevens has a LOT to say on this offer.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 10:14:41 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
I think Ainge won't extend Sully until he comes in shape and stays in shape, something he has not done yet in his pro career and it should be this way.   The only way he signs him now is to put him in a trade, as I see it.   Sully has not earned an extension playing only 177 out of 251 possible games.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 10:35:55 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
I think Ainge won't extend Sully until he comes in shape and stays in shape, something he has not done yet in his pro career and it should be this way.   The only way he signs him now is to put him in a trade, as I see it.   Sully has not earned an extension playing only 177 out of 251 possible games.

Relatedly, why not draft an extension with a "weight" clause in it. Don't they do that in the ballerina world? Gain a pound, lose a leg.. something like that?

Or what about an incentive, a la football? Per year, 4 years: $100k guaranteed, $7.9 milli of possible earnings for averaging a double double ($1 mil) and maintaining a weight between X and Y lbs ($6.9 mil). Easy game.
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 10:51:04 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619
I think Ainge won't extend Sully until he comes in shape and stays in shape, something he has not done yet in his pro career and it should be this way.   The only way he signs him now is to put him in a trade, as I see it.   Sully has not earned an extension playing only 177 out of 251 possible games.

Relatedly, why not draft an extension with a "weight" clause in it. Don't they do that in the ballerina world? Gain a pound, lose a leg.. something like that?

Or what about an incentive, a la football? Per year, 4 years: $100k guaranteed, $7.9 milli of possible earnings for averaging a double double ($1 mil) and maintaining a weight between X and Y lbs ($6.9 mil). Easy game.

You can draft one with those clauses, sure.  Not to nearly the exteme you're talking about, and if they're incentives, the full-value of the contract counts against the cap, even if he repeatedly doesn't meet such incentives.  Also there's no way in heck he's agreeing to much, if any incentives, because I'm sure another team will give him a contract without them.

Incentives in basketball are relatively rare, because they always count against the hard cap, and generally count against the soft cap and luxury tax.  So they save a team a little bit of money after the season, but generally a few hundred thousand isn't worth haggling over in a multi-year, 8 figure deal.  What makes most sense is having a non-guaranteed year or partially guaranteed year become a guaranteed year based on certain benchmarks.  This gives the player something to shoot for, but if he misses it, the team might decide he's still worth it despite missing it.  So 2-3 years of guaranteed money, and the final 1-2 years could guarantee in advance if he hit certain physical or performance standards.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 10:52:36 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619
can weight clauses be worked into rookie extensions or RFA extensions if that's the better term?

Yes they can, and rookie contract extension is the best term.  RFA extensions don't exist.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 10:52:43 PM »

Offline greece66

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7395
  • Tommy Points: 1342
  • Head Paperboy at Greenville
Offer Sully 3 years at $8 million per, or 2 years at $10 million per.
perhaps, but that may be low in this new brave nba cap world. usually when you pay for short contract years you have to jack up the price.

bradley made similar to the first figure and that was under the old system.

I agree about the Brave New NBA Cap World, but Sullinger is one player I wouldn't be willing to extend myself for.  The weight and motivation issues worry me.  Low-ball him on annual value, or low-ball him on years.  Otherwise, no extension.
good points. yet, sully is seductive, isnt he? if sully had the discipline and drive of other players such as smart, he really could put up 20 and 10 for years. therein lies the temptation. the physical talent is there, but is the mental drive there as well?

out of college i thought he played a tough brand of basketball and was a bull down low. he played mean and he played physical basketball. now? i dont know.

that is the gamble and calculation danny has to make. i bet stevens has a LOT to say on this offer.

Pho if we can have Sully for 10% (or less) of the new salary cap this is a no brainer: even if he does not fit with the team in the long run, this contract will be easy to move.

Thing is, as things are now, what you are suggesting is basically to pass on Sully. It's not you are not extending - you are not even moving your hand  :P

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2015, 01:41:56 PM »

Offline ThePoeticWolf

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 289
  • Tommy Points: 14
With Jared Sullinger I'm really hoping we resign him.  He's a 23 year old power forward with such great potential and keeps showing his skill.  Yes, the weight was an issue, but it's looks like he's serious about being in shape.  I think the most I'd be willing to do is 8 million a year for 4 years.  This is a great contract for both the Celtics and Sullinger, since by the end of the contract he'd be 27 still in line for a big deal.  Plus gives him the security of a 4 year 32 million deal. 

Tyler Zeller for me becomes the interesting discussion.  Zeller being a 25 year old big man with a lot of skills, but not a defense type center.  I'm really torn with Zeller, as do I want to give him somewhere along the line of 4 years 40 million, to sure up a center for us, or do we gamble and not extend him and overpay for him.  Since I almost view Zeller as a great backup for any other team, but a starter for the Celtics. 

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2015, 02:42:25 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1605
  • Tommy Points: 76
No reason we shouldn't bet on Sullinger. This is probably the best time because we can convince him to take less from the various weight problems/injury issues. If we extend him to modest money we will be able sell on him as a prospect in a deal if he never really improves, but averages a consistent 10 and 10. If he blows up we have a star on a cheap contract with the ability to bring in other stars because of our cap situation. I'm not sure why we are even looking to extend Zeller. All offensive centers that struggle defensively are a dime a dozen. We have one already in Kelly Olynyk.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2015, 02:54:24 PM »

Offline Jon

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6499
  • Tommy Points: 385
I'm not sure there's a huge rush to extend them.  If anything, with our crowded front court, neither player may do much to raise his value this year even if he does play well.  I think there's a shot that one of them doesn't even make the rotation this year, which would really drive down his value. 

So, I don't see what the rush is here.  Neither will get the time to put up the type of numbers that would lead to a big deal. 

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2015, 04:09:51 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619
I'm not sure there's a huge rush to extend them.  If anything, with our crowded front court, neither player may do much to raise his value this year even if he does play well.  I think there's a shot that one of them doesn't even make the rotation this year, which would really drive down his value. 

So, I don't see what the rush is here.  Neither will get the time to put up the type of numbers that would lead to a big deal.

Aron Baynes is 28 years-old and just got $6.5 million per year, coming off a single season in which he performed reasonably well while on the court, but was nothing special.  But he wasn't on the court that much, playing 16 minutes per game.  You don't need to put up huge numbers to get a deal.  Tyler Zeller far outperformed Baynes last year, and was over 3 years younger.  Big deals are going to happen next season for both players unless they're injured.  Essentially the Celtics will try to get a discount based on each player's perception of his injury chances and likely income loss due to said potential injury.  But it would not surprise to see either player get well-paid next summer even with only 15-20 minutes of court time per night.

It's not like that Baynes deal was out of the ordinary -- Derrick Williams is getting $4.4 million for being a bad reserve on a bad team (SAC) and Lavoy Alen is getting $4 million for being mediocre on a mediocre team.  Accordingly, the floor is Baynes' contract, and that doesn't take into account the cap spike, much less the higher potential/performance of Zeller and Sullinger.

Do I expect Ainge to give either player $10 mil next year as the first year of an extension negotiates this fall? No.  Do I think their value can be suppressed by the minutes crunch.  Maybe, but I think that number would still be a lot higher than posters around here are expecting.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2015, 05:30:27 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
"Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger "

wow! we really are shooting for mediocrity....

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2015, 06:20:41 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36703
  • Tommy Points: 2951
"Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger "

wow! we really are shooting for mediocrity....

Go ahead big guy.....tell us WHO the Celtics can sign ....right now ...that's better ?

All ears ?  ::)

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2015, 08:07:12 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
"Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger "

wow! we really are shooting for mediocrity....

Go ahead big guy.....tell us WHO the Celtics can sign ....right now ...that's better ?

All ears ?  ::)

perfect example of why a team stays mediocre.

Re: Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2015, 08:15:23 PM »

Offline greece66

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7395
  • Tommy Points: 1342
  • Head Paperboy at Greenville
"Celtics open contract talks with Tyler Zeller, Jared Sullinger "

wow! we really are shooting for mediocrity....

Go ahead big guy.....tell us WHO the Celtics can sign ....right now ...that's better ?

All ears ?  ::)

perfect example of why a team stays mediocre.

I think SHAQ makes a valid point. At least for now, the choices are very limited.

And at any case, signing an extension to Zeller and/or Sully does not hinder our chances of signing a better player in the future. This is hardly the right basis to judge an NBA contract.