So does Danny trade Evan Turner or give Perry Jones a legitimate shot in NBA?

[Bdiddy]

I love the comments of how PJIII is a cast off as justification for keeping Turner. Isn't it true WE GOT TURNER FOR NOTHING? And no other team even made an offer on him when he was an unrestricted free agent. Isn't it also true he was a former #2 pick classified as a BUST prior to last year? I would rather experiment with PJIII than get another year of the known (12.88 PER) Turner experience.

[Surferdad]

I love the comments of how PJIII is a cast off as justification for keeping Turner. Isn't it true WE GOT TURNER FOR NOTHING? And no other team even made an offer on him when he was an unrestricted free agent. Isn't it also true he was a former #2 pick classified as a BUST prior to last year? I would rather experiment with PJIII than get another year of the known (12.88 PER) Turner experience.

Really. OK, one simple question: Who had the better season last year, Turner or Jones?  When you answer that question, the other guy is the bust.

[crimson_stallion]

What's your call?

My call is option C - waive James Young.

Turner and Jones have both shown far more indications of NBA talent than Young has, since Young has been pretty much utterly useless thus far against anything resembling NBA competition.

The issue I see with Young is that so far, he's been completely useless against NBA competition - and even (gasp!) against Summer League competition.  So you can be almost certain that if we keep him on the roster, he'll provide nothing to the team and will most likely end up hovering in the D-League.

That's fine if he has freak attributes that suggest future All-Star potential, but Young really doesn't have that.  He's got good (rather than great) size and athleticism.  He seems completely lacking in confidence, motor and general motivation.  He's a horribly lazy defender who seems to have no clue on that end of the floor.  Even on offense he's limited - he's a mediocre passer, he's a mediocre ball handler, he has no offensive awareness whatsoever, and he's shown no real ability to get to (or finish at) the basket against NBA competition. 

At this point Young looks like he's going to be a spot up three point shooter off the bench, and not much more.

Meanwhile Evan Turner and Perry Jones have both started some games for playoff teams, and were relatively effective when they have done so. 

I really see no point in holding on to Young any longer.  There might be a 1/500 change he develops in to something special - I"m happy to let another team take that gamble, and if it happens and they get to enjoy the fruits of it, then so be it. 

In a game of poker I'm happy to fold me pair of 5's when a K Q A comes up on the flop.   Is there a chance that a pair 5's could come up on the river and I just folded potential Quad's?  Sure there is, but the odds of that not happening are far better than the odds of it happening, so if that happens I can live my decision of folding those 5's, knowing it was the right decision at the time, with the knowledge I had available.  If the same situation came up again, I'd have no hesitation making the same call again.

[Surferdad]

What's your call?

My call is option C - waive James Young.

Turner and Jones have both shown far more indications of NBA talent than Young has, since Young has been pretty much utterly useless thus far against anything resembling NBA competition.

The issue I see with Young is that so far, he's been completely useless against NBA competition - and even (gasp!) against Summer League competition.  So you can be almost certain that if we keep him on the roster, he'll provide nothing to the team and will most likely end up hovering in the D-League.

That's fine if he has freak attributes that suggest future All-Star potential, but Young really doesn't have that.  He's a horribly lazy defender who seems to have no clue on that end of the floor.  To make matters worse, he's even limited on the offensive end he's limited - he's a mediocre passer, he's a mediocre ball handler, he has no offensive awareness whatsoever, and he's shown no real ability to get to (or finish at) the basket against NBA competition. 

At this point Young looks like he's going to be a spot up three point shooter off the bench, and not much more.

Meanwhile Evan Turner and Perry Jones have both started some games for playoff teams, and were relatively effective when they have done so. 

I really see no point in holding on to Young any longer.  There might be a 1/500 change he develops in to something special - I"m happy to let another team take that gamble.

Yes, hard to argue with any of this.

So this is what I mean when I say the question posed by the OP is not the right question. There are other options besides choosing between Turner and Jones.

[MJohnnyboy]

I love the comments of how PJIII is a cast off as justification for keeping Turner.

I don't think anyone's using PJII being a cast off as justification for keeping ET as much as they are saying PJIII being handed to us means people should temper their expectations about what Jones is capable of. I know I was, and it's actually the opposite from what I've seen. Some posters on here have used PJII's one game of scoring 33 points as justification for getting rid of ET and keeping him long term, which to me does not make sense because PJII has failed to establish any consistency ever.

Isn't it true WE GOT TURNER FOR NOTHING? And no other team even made an offer on him when he was an unrestricted free agent.

Yup, but only because his value couldn't have been lower because of him being a disaster in Indiana. If Philly had kept him the whole season, he probably would have more suitors. Also, I believe Minnesota was interested in his services that summer.

Isn't it also true he was a former #2 pick classified as a BUST prior to last year? I would rather experiment with PJIII than get another year of the known (12.88 PER) Turner experience.

Yes but he atleast had shown that he was capable of producing something before he joined the Celtics, unlike Jones. if you don't believe me compare their stats. So you would rather experiment with someone who put up a PER of 6.91 last year who has yet to prove anything than keep someone who has atleast proven he can be a rotation player at 12.88 PER because he "could" be better? I feel like the PJII over ET rings eerily similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZJdaiJF84

ET may not be perfect and I absolutely agree he's not a long term piece but, similar to the boat (but not nearly as luxurious) we atleast know what he is. Jones has not done anything to show he's worth keeping. Some think we should keep PJII and get rid of ET because PJIII might be a good player. I think we should keep PJIII and get rid if ET because PJIII has proven that he is a good player.

[PhoSita]

I love the comments of how PJIII is a cast off as justification for keeping Turner. Isn't it true WE GOT TURNER FOR NOTHING? And no other team even made an offer on him when he was an unrestricted free agent. Isn't it also true he was a former #2 pick classified as a BUST prior to last year? I would rather experiment with PJIII than get another year of the known (12.88 PER) Turner experience.

I see it as the justification for getting rid of both and clearing time for guys who may have a future here.

[crimson_stallion]

What's your call?

My call is option C - waive James Young.

Turner and Jones have both shown far more indications of NBA talent than Young has, since Young has been pretty much utterly useless thus far against anything resembling NBA competition.

The issue I see with Young is that so far, he's been completely useless against NBA competition - and even (gasp!) against Summer League competition.  So you can be almost certain that if we keep him on the roster, he'll provide nothing to the team and will most likely end up hovering in the D-League.

That's fine if he has freak attributes that suggest future All-Star potential, but Young really doesn't have that.  He's a horribly lazy defender who seems to have no clue on that end of the floor.  To make matters worse, he's even limited on the offensive end he's limited - he's a mediocre passer, he's a mediocre ball handler, he has no offensive awareness whatsoever, and he's shown no real ability to get to (or finish at) the basket against NBA competition. 

At this point Young looks like he's going to be a spot up three point shooter off the bench, and not much more.

Meanwhile Evan Turner and Perry Jones have both started some games for playoff teams, and were relatively effective when they have done so. 

I really see no point in holding on to Young any longer.  There might be a 1/500 change he develops in to something special - I"m happy to let another team take that gamble.

Yes, hard to argue with any of this.

So this is what I mean when I say the question posed by the OP is not the right question. There are other options besides choosing between Turner and Jones.

I just want to note as well that, it's not just the lack of skills he's shown (or lack thereof) that has me giving up on Young, but the intangibles too.

The reason I reason I always knew Marcus Smart would have some impact on this league is because of his intangibles.  He's a natural born leader, he's got a tireless work ethic, he's got that "never back down" swagger/confidence, he's got a the never-ending motor.  He is the type of guy who will work so hard at his craft, day in and day out, that that it will be almost impossible for him NOT to get better and better as his career goes on.  It's inevitable that if he's not an NBA player on day one, he will be eventually.

That's the same reason I have confidence in guys like Rozier, Hunter and Mickey.  All hard working guys who have the confidence, the motor, the work ethic, the desire to become the best they can be.  Those guys may well never become stars, but he'll become something - they are all the type of players who will do what they have to do in order to carve out a role/purpose in the league.

It's that mentality that has allows guys like Crowder and Jerebko to earn their contracts this year - neither of them showed start potential, but with their attitude and work ethic day in, day out they left Brad with no choice but to put them on the court. 

James Young, so far, just doesn't seem to have that.

[crimson_stallion]

I don't think anyone's using PJII being a cast off as justification for keeping ET as much as they are saying PJIII being handed to us means people should temper their expectations about what Jones is capable of. I know I was, and it's actually the opposite from what I've seen. Some posters on here have used PJII's one game of scoring 33 points as justification for getting rid of ET and keeping him long term, which to me does not make sense because PJII has failed to establish any consistency ever.

To be fair to PJ, he has only started 21 games in his career (mostly due to him playing behind Durant).

In those 21 games he's averaged 8.1 points (43% FG, 25% 3PT, 74% FT), 3.4 rebounds, 0.7 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.3 blocks and 0.8 turnovers, in 25.8 minutes. 

Per-36 that becomes 11.3 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1 assist, 0.4 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.2 turnovers.

Evan Turner in 57 games as a starter last year averaged 10.2 points (42% FG, 25% 3PT, 72% FT) to go with 5.7 rebounds, 6.4 assists, 1 steal, 0.2 blocks and 2.6 turnovers in 30 minutes.

Per-36 that becomes 12.3 points, 6.9 rebounds, 7.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.2 blocks and 3.1 turnovers.

Now obviously Turner's overall numbers are better, but it's not by as wide a margin as you might expect considering he's 26 years old, has started 229 games, and has played 11,119 minutes over 7 seasons.  By comparison PJ is 23 years old, has started 21 games, and has played a total of 1675 minutes in the NBA over three seasons. 

To put that in to perspective, Evan Turner played more minutes in his rookie year (1,797) than Perry Jones has in his entire three year career (1,675) so for all intents and purposes, you can basically consider PJII a rookie in terms of the amount of playing experience he's had.

Remember that PJII has spend his entire career on a team that starts Kevin Durant (a former MVP) and Serge Ibaka (a former DPOTY) - so his opportunities to get court time and develop his game were always going to be limited. There was only one time in his career that Turner was put in that type of situation (playing behind George in Indiana) and when that happened he fared no better.

So who knows.  Personally, I see PJ as most likely become Jeff Green minus the outside shot - however he's really never had an opportunity to 'spread his wings' this far...but he has amazing natural gifts (6'11" / 235 lbs frame and ridiculous athleticism) that you can't teach, and for that reason his potential is sky high.  He's on a cheap contact and he has All-Star potential (it's slim, but it's there) so I'm willing to take that chance on him.

I also like Turner because of what he offers the team right now.  I don't think there is really anybody else on this roster who can do everything (score, rebound, pass, handle the ball and defend multiple positions) the way Turner can, so he can fill a variety of roles.

This is why, in my perfect scenario, I keep both Turner and PJII and I ditch somebody who else.  In my case I would either waive/trade Young, or else I would trade one of our PF's (probably Sully) and try to get back a SF with an outside shot, or a big who can protect the paint.  Or at the very a quality pick or two. 

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I'm not arguing for one over the other but why do I keep seeing people saying PJ3 played behind Durant? Yes, he did, but let's not pretend that is the only reason why he wasn't getting minutes, he has the ability to play every position not named PG! SF may be considered his natural position but if he was good enough, he should have found minutes at multiple positions. He could be a late bloomer, but Durant wasn't the reason he didn't play.

[MJohnnyboy]

I don't think anyone's using PJII being a cast off as justification for keeping ET as much as they are saying PJIII being handed to us means people should temper their expectations about what Jones is capable of. I know I was, and it's actually the opposite from what I've seen. Some posters on here have used PJII's one game of scoring 33 points as justification for getting rid of ET and keeping him long term, which to me does not make sense because PJII has failed to establish any consistency ever.

To be fair to PJ, he has only started 21 games in his career (mostly due to him playing behind Durant).

In those 21 games he's averaged 8.1 points (43% FG, 25% 3PT, 74% FT), 3.4 rebounds, 0.7 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.3 blocks and 0.8 turnovers, in 25.8 minutes. 

Per-36 that becomes 11.3 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1 assist, 0.4 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.2 turnovers.

Evan Turner in 57 games as a starter last year averaged 10.2 points (42% FG, 25% 3PT, 72% FT) to go with 5.7 rebounds, 6.4 assists, 1 steal, 0.2 blocks and 2.6 turnovers in 30 minutes.

Per-36 that becomes 12.3 points, 6.9 rebounds, 7.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.2 blocks and 3.1 turnovers.

Now obviously Turner's overall numbers are better, but it's not by as wide a margin as you might expect considering he's 26 years old, has started 229 games, and has played 11,119 minutes over 7 seasons.  By comparison PJ is 23 years old, has started 21 games, and has played a total of 1675 minutes in the NBA over three seasons. 

To put that in to perspective, Evan Turner played more minutes in his rookie year (1,797) than Perry Jones has in his entire three year career (1,675) so for all intents and purposes, you can basically consider PJII a rookie in terms of the amount of playing experience he's had.

Remember that PJII has spend his entire career on a team that starts Kevin Durant (a former MVP) and Serge Ibaka (a former DPOTY) - so his opportunities to get court time and develop his game were always going to be limited. There was only one time in his career that Turner was put in that type of situation (playing behind George in Indiana) and when that happened he fared no better.

So who knows.  Personally, I see PJ as most likely become Jeff Green minus the outside shot - however he's really never had an opportunity to 'spread his wings' this far...but he has amazing natural gifts (6'11" / 235 lbs frame and ridiculous athleticism) that you can't teach, and for that reason his potential is sky high.  He's on a cheap contact and he has All-Star potential (it's slim, but it's there) so I'm willing to take that chance on him.

I also like Turner because of what he offers the team right now.  I don't think there is really anybody else on this roster who can do everything (score, rebound, pass, handle the ball and defend multiple positions) the way Turner can, so he can fill a variety of roles.

This is why, in my perfect scenario, I keep both Turner and PJII and I ditch somebody who else.  In my case I would either waive/trade Young, or else I would trade one of our PF's (probably Sully) and try to get back a SF with an outside shot, or a big who can protect the paint.  Or at the very a quality pick or two.

It just goes back to my point before. Turner is atleast a sure thing even if he's not a particularly very special player. Perry Jones III is a question mark or a "mystery box". Could he be a special player? Maybe, but he could also be a scrub. There's more evidence pointing to him being a scrub than a special player. The optimistic fan in me says Perry Jones could be a poor mans Greek Freek because he's long and versatile, but he's only played well in a handful of games.

I'll be rooting for Perry Jones this pre-season, but I'm not getting my hopes up about what he could be.

Also when did Ibaka win defensive player of the year?

[Eddie20]

So I'd trade away IT ET AB Zeller and KO/Sully, like I've said a million times. And focus on player development

And this is why I hate Hinkie.

Mike

The ironic thing is that those players are still very young, still developing, and on good contracts.

Sullinger 23 - rookie contract
Olynyk 24 - rookie contract
Bradley 24 - on a team friendly deal
Zeller 25 - rookie contract
Thomas 26 - on a team friendly deal

[Endless Paradise]

I'm not arguing for one over the other but why do I keep seeing people saying PJ3 played behind Durant? Yes, he did, but let's not pretend that is the only reason why he wasn't getting minutes, he has the ability to play every position not named PG! SF may be considered his natural position but if he was good enough, he should have found minutes at multiple positions. He could be a late bloomer, but Durant wasn't the reason he didn't play.

Especially when Durant basically didn't even play last year and Jones STILL couldn't manage to hold onto a rotation spot.

[crimson_stallion]

I'm not arguing for one over the other but why do I keep seeing people saying PJ3 played behind Durant? Yes, he did, but let's not pretend that is the only reason why he wasn't getting minutes, he has the ability to play every position not named PG! SF may be considered his natural position but if he was good enough, he should have found minutes at multiple positions. He could be a late bloomer, but Durant wasn't the reason he didn't play.

PJ is not a rebounder, a shotblocker, or a traditional inside scorer.  He's never going to get significant minutes at the center spot.  He also doesn't have the ball handling, passing or shooting ability to play the SG spot. 

Realistically the only positions PJ can play on the offensive end of the floor are SF and PF, and those positions were taken up by a former MVP (Durant) and a borderline all-star (Ibaka).  As a rookie coming in to the league, you're just not going to get much opportunity in that type of situation. 

Also if Jones ever becomes something special in this league, it's going to be either as a scorer or as a versatile defender (or both). 

His advanced defensive stats last year were pretty bad (-2.07 DRPM) ranking him about on par with Carmelo Anthony and Tobias Harris.  But in 2013/14 his defensive numbers were actually decent (-0.55 DRPM) which ranked him:

* Above Joe Johnson
* On par with Harrison Barnes and Jeff Green
* Only a few ranks below Kevin Durant, Tayshaun Prince and Lebron James

By no means does this suggest that he's a great (or even good) defensive player, but it shows he can more or less hold his own.  Given his age and physical gifts, I feel the potential is there for him to be an plus defender under the right tutelage, and his versatility on that end (ability to defend 2-5 at a squeeze) is an added bonus.

Offensively he was never going get many opportunities as a perimeter player stuck behind Westbrook and Durant. 

I mean honestly, even James Harden looked like a 6th man (or a #3 scoring option, at best) when he was playing in OKC.   With Durant and Westbrook getting all the touches, Harden only averaged 15.6 / 16.4 / 19.3 points per 36 minutes in his three seasons in OKC.  Those numbers aren't far from what Sully, Green and Bradley put up in Boston.

Then the instant Harden was traded to Houston his Per-36 numbers jumped by around 7 points to 24 / 24 / 27 Points Per 36 in his first three seasons there.  This trade happened mid-season and Harden's scoring increase was instant, so this suggests the jump in scoring was purely a result of the change in role (#1 scoring option) and touches, not a result of Harden actually improving as a player. Just goes to show how much he was being held back by playing behind Westbrook/Durant in OKC.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that PJ is going to explode like Harden and become a superstar just because he has left OKC.  At the same time I think that if a guy like Harden (NBA ready skills, proven scorer, plays SG - a position of need) could be held back as much as he was, then it's safe to assume that a guy like PJ3 (very raw, unproven, and playing the same position as KD) is going to be held back even more.

If Jones's scoring were to jump by 7 Points Per-36 (the way Harden's did when he left OKC) then suddenly you have a 23 year old, 6'11", 230 lbs freak athlete who's averaging 17 Points Per 36 - and you have the attention of every team in the league.     

Now by all means you can ask the questions:

1) Would PJ have gotten any more minutes if he DIDN'T play behind those guys, or would his minutes have been limited anyway simply because of coach lacking confidence in his game?

2) If he did get the extra minutes/experience, would he actually be any better a player than he is now as a result?

The answer to both of those question is - we don't know.  That's where the risk/gamble comes in to it. 

There's every chance that the kid is a complete bozo and a total bust.  But everybody knows how hard it is to acquire an All-Star calibre player in today's league.  If Perry Jones has even the slightest hint of potential (even if it's just a 5% chance) to develop into an All-Star under the right tutelage, and he's on a $2m expiring contact, then that's a gamble I'm willing to take.

Worst case scenario is it doesn't work out, he ends up a bust, we let him walk after the season and we get our $2m cap space back. 

Nothing to lose really.

Either way, OKC couldn't keep him.  They have Durant at SF, Ibaka at PF - there's no way he's replacing either of those guys.  Also he expires after this season, so even if he DID have a break out year, they won't be able to afford to keep him (remember, their desire to not go into luxury tax is the reason why they traded Harden in the first place).  So the only option that really makes sense for OKC is to trade him away to another team where he can get more opportunity to develop, and basically clear off some cap space in the process.

[crimson_stallion]

Also when did Ibaka win defensive player of the year?

My mistake - I remember he was a clear favorite to win DPOTY one year, but I remember now that there was an upset and somebody else got it instead.

Either way, he's been right up there and has been one of the best defensive players in the NBA for a couple of years now (as well as a very effective rebounder and offensive player).

Still I retract the DPOTY statement

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

No, PJ3 isn't the type to play those positions for a long stretch but he could have played any in spot minutes. He could have at least earned 20 minutes per, he hasn't. Ibaka has been out a good amount too. Still, PJ3 hasn't earned minutes anywhere.


I don't know what a change of scenery will do for him. No one is good enough to take Durant's minutes but given what he has shown up until now, he isn't taking minutes from guys like Jae, Jerebko or any of our other 100 players either.

He wasn't gifted with endless minutes, but he has had his chances and besides a couple of okay games, he hasn't proven he deserves more.


I hope he reaches his full potential as a Celtics. I always want our guys to be their best as a Celtics but let's see it b4 making so many excuses.


Edit: there is something to lose, a more productive player. I'm not saying I wouldn't take the chance, I'm just saying that he has had opportunities that many players never get.


One more thing, I really believe DA thought he would be sending two players overseas, likely Mickey, b4 his SL play. Then we wouldn't have to send a player packing.