Author Topic: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.  (Read 35774 times)

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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #120 on: August 28, 2015, 08:40:03 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I think it's fair to wonder why no criminal charges have been filed.

I think it is fair and understandable to wonder that.

My question is -- why is THAT the thing we've been focusing on here in this thread?  Why is THAT the primary topic here, and not what Derrick Rose may have done, or why he did it, or why our justice system might make it easy for him to get away with it?

Why, in a thread about Derrick Rose being accused of rape, are we talking first and foremost about what the WOMAN in question did? 

This is why, when I see people scoff at the notion that "rape culture" is real, I can only shake my head.
Because in our minds we have no evidence at all of what he did (and actually we have a strong denial) but we do have evidence of what she did (or I suppose didn't do). So rather than speculate on what we can't know we focus more on what we definitely know.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #121 on: August 28, 2015, 09:31:28 AM »

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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #122 on: August 28, 2015, 09:40:26 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think it's fair to wonder why no criminal charges have been filed.

I think it is fair and understandable to wonder that.

My question is -- why is THAT the thing we've been focusing on here in this thread?  Why is THAT the primary topic here, and not what Derrick Rose may have done, or why he did it, or why our justice system might make it easy for him to get away with it?

Why, in a thread about Derrick Rose being accused of rape, are we talking first and foremost about what the WOMAN in question did? 

This is why, when I see people scoff at the notion that "rape culture" is real, I can only shake my head.
Because in our minds we have no evidence at all of what he did (and actually we have a strong denial) but we do have evidence of what she did (or I suppose didn't do). So rather than speculate on what we can't know we focus more on what we definitely know.


So, do you believe that 90%+ of people who identify as victims of rape or sexual assault are making it up?

Because there's no "evidence" of the kind you seem to require in the vast majority of cases, and the overwhelming majority of people who commit sexual violence never spend any time in a cell for it.
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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #123 on: August 28, 2015, 09:44:37 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I think it's fair to wonder why no criminal charges have been filed.

I think it is fair and understandable to wonder that.

My question is -- why is THAT the thing we've been focusing on here in this thread?  Why is THAT the primary topic here, and not what Derrick Rose may have done, or why he did it, or why our justice system might make it easy for him to get away with it?

Why, in a thread about Derrick Rose being accused of rape, are we talking first and foremost about what the WOMAN in question did? 

This is why, when I see people scoff at the notion that "rape culture" is real, I can only shake my head.
Because in our minds we have no evidence at all of what he did (and actually we have a strong denial) but we do have evidence of what she did (or I suppose didn't do). So rather than speculate on what we can't know we focus more on what we definitely know.


1. So, do you believe that 90%+ of people who identify as victims of rape or sexual assault are making it up?

2. Because there's no "evidence" of the kind you seem to require in the vast majority of cases, and the overwhelming majority of people who commit sexual violence never spend any time in a cell for it.

1 No.

2 I am hoping that if people went to the police immediately there would be more evidence.

Are you saying there should be a very low threshold of evidence to send an accused rapist to jail, such that a simple accusation should be sufficient, seeing as how there is rarely evidence?

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #124 on: August 28, 2015, 06:11:02 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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I think it's fair to wonder why no criminal charges have been filed.

I think it is fair and understandable to wonder that.

My question is -- why is THAT the thing we've been focusing on here in this thread?  Why is THAT the primary topic here, and not what Derrick Rose may have done, or why he did it, or why our justice system might make it easy for him to get away with it?

Why, in a thread about Derrick Rose being accused of rape, are we talking first and foremost about what the WOMAN in question did? 

This is why, when I see people scoff at the notion that "rape culture" is real, I can only shake my head.
Because in our minds we have no evidence at all of what he did (and actually we have a strong denial) but we do have evidence of what she did (or I suppose didn't do). So rather than speculate on what we can't know we focus more on what we definitely know.


So, do you believe that 90%+ of people who identify as victims of rape or sexual assault are making it up?

Because there's no "evidence" of the kind you seem to require in the vast majority of cases, and the overwhelming majority of people who commit sexual violence never spend any time in a cell for it.

And how does that change unless victims go to the police as quickly as possible?

I do not understand what on earth you are  insinuating be done about that.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #125 on: August 28, 2015, 10:10:13 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Oops. Double post.



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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2015, 10:11:16 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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So, there's new light to this.

http://www.bullsnation.net/woman-accusing-derrick-rose-of-rape-makes-a-big-error-in-complaint/


Quote
“In May 2013, according to the lawsuit, the woman said she traveled to Chicago with Rose and that they went to dinner with a friend “at his house after the game he played in ended.” Rose, however, missed the entire the 2012-13 season with an injury and, consequently, did not play in May.”


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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2015, 12:27:44 AM »

Offline saltlover

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So, there's new light to this.

http://www.bullsnation.net/woman-accusing-derrick-rose-of-rape-makes-a-big-error-in-complaint/


Quote
“In May 2013, according to the lawsuit, the woman said she traveled to Chicago with Rose and that they went to dinner with a friend “at his house after the game he played in ended.” Rose, however, missed the entire the 2012-13 season with an injury and, consequently, did not play in May.”

I mean, it doesn't help her case, but Rose doesn't deny having a relationship with the woman.  The alleged incident occurred in August, so having the specifics of a different encounter 2 months earlier incorrect is mostly a sign her attorney isn't very thorough.  If Rose were arguing that they'd never met, such a detail would be a more glaring error, but getting a detail like that incorrect doesn't disprove or prove anything.  It's very easy for me to believe that he told her he was going to play, because the entire final 2-3 months of the Chicago Bulls season that year was "Derrick Rose might play tonight," and then her memory conflated that with "he played", because memories are weird.  And no, "memories are weird" doesn't mean that she might have misremembered getting raped.

I'm not inclined to believe these allegations either, but not getting correct irrelevant details doesn't move the needle for me at all.  It would, however, give me more confidence on team Rose that her lawyer is likely in over his head.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2015, 12:50:55 AM »

Offline saltlover

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I think it's fair to wonder why no criminal charges have been filed.

I think it is fair and understandable to wonder that.

My question is -- why is THAT the thing we've been focusing on here in this thread?  Why is THAT the primary topic here, and not what Derrick Rose may have done, or why he did it, or why our justice system might make it easy for him to get away with it?

Why, in a thread about Derrick Rose being accused of rape, are we talking first and foremost about what the WOMAN in question did? 

This is why, when I see people scoff at the notion that "rape culture" is real, I can only shake my head.
Because in our minds we have no evidence at all of what he did (and actually we have a strong denial) but we do have evidence of what she did (or I suppose didn't do). So rather than speculate on what we can't know we focus more on what we definitely know.


So, do you believe that 90%+ of people who identify as victims of rape or sexual assault are making it up?

Because there's no "evidence" of the kind you seem to require in the vast majority of cases, and the overwhelming majority of people who commit sexual violence never spend any time in a cell for it.

And how does that change unless victims go to the police as quickly as possible?

I do not understand what on earth you are  insinuating be done about that.

Phosita has admirably tried to explain, but since you're not getting it, I'll try:

Many, probably most, women who are raped do not press charges, and certainly don't press charges immediately.  Your argument is that women (and men, because men who are raped are even less likely to report than women) should do this.  That's fine and all, but it's missing the point.  And that point is that if it is common for this crime to not be reported, there is probably a reason, maybe multiple.  And if society wants these crimes to be better punished, it's probably up to society to figure out why they aren't reported and prosecuted, and work on fixing that as much as possible.

Some of that starts with law enforcement.  When women (or men) do report rape, they are often asked questions like:

1) What were you wearing?
2) Were you drinking/using drugs?
3) Are you dating this person?
4) Was this person paying you for sex?

And other such questions that can produce feelings of guilt and blame within the victim.  And these questions aren't asked solely by law enforcement, either, but by society at large.  By the time the victim has gone through enough self-examination and self-assurance to say, "Yes, I am the victim", it's generally too late to collect evidence.  I mean, sometimes that can take years.  And that's not even getting into the fact that many rape victims know their attacker and may have to be around him in their daily lives, and thus feel fear and intimidation keeping them from reporting as well.

Anyway, if you want victims to report quickly, you can help by changing your attitude towards victims.  Saying "I am not likely to believe you if you don't report this to the police immediately" is a form of victim-blaming that is completely oblivious to the pain and trauma victims feel, and only reinforces the shame and embarrassment that helps keep them away from authorities.

Also, I don't remotely consider myself an expert on this, but knowing multiple rape victims, and knowing that none of them have reported it to the authorities, these are some of the reasons I've observed.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2015, 03:07:16 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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In the state of CA, you can underdo a medical eval following a sexual assault as "Jane Doe," and that information can be kept sealed for up to 5 years. If this woman has that information (and the same laws apply to her state), then that'd be helpful. But otherwise, wouldn't this all be considered hearsay?
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Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2015, 07:10:50 AM »

Offline Eja117

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No. People are having a hard time here with the phrase Victim-blaming.   

The key word is "blaming". You have to actually blame them for being a victim. That means saying stuff like "Well if you wore heels like than you were probably asking for it".

Also pointing things out that are reality ("wait a second....you took the drug he gave you?") also isn't victim blaming.  Or maybe it is but not all victim blaming is completely wrong. It's called contributory negligence.  Saying "You probably shouldn't do stuff like that" isn't victim blaming. When Doc Rivers says "Nothing good happens after midnight" is he peremptorily victim blaming his own players before they've even been victimized? Of course not.  Saying that there are things we can do or not do, that are in our own power, to increase or reduce the odds of bad things happening to us isn't victim blaming. Some people would say it's empowering.

Victim blaming is something that says "This is your fault." Like "Well did you make him mad? Are you frigid"?   

Saying "If you don't go to the police I might not believe you" isn't victim blaming. That's victim skepticism.

You know some victims that were totally blamed? The Duke Lacross boys. They were victims. They were blamed. They were blamed because the woman lied about them. Eventually when people finally got around to looking at evidence it was clear who the victims were. You have to look at evidence. Looking at evidence, or a lack of it, isn't victim blaming. That's just how our justice system works in order to establish who the victim actually is.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #131 on: August 29, 2015, 08:57:10 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Did not this stuff happen a few years ago?   And it was brought up after she was an ex girlfriend?

The late reportings always make me skeptical.  I know people sometimes need time to process things emotionally.   But this one reeks of seeking money.   I would think someone would report something like that right away.

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2015, 12:50:25 PM »

Offline MBunge

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You know some victims that were totally blamed? The Duke Lacross boys. They were victims. They were blamed. They were blamed because the woman lied about them.

They were also blamed because they were apparently HUGE jerks.  I don't think I've ever seen another case where some college kids were accused of something this bad and essentially everyone at the school said "Yup.  That sounds like them."

Mike

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2015, 12:52:55 PM »

Offline Eja117

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You know some victims that were totally blamed? The Duke Lacross boys. They were victims. They were blamed. They were blamed because the woman lied about them.

They were also blamed because they were apparently HUGE jerks.  I don't think I've ever seen another case where some college kids were accused of something this bad and essentially everyone at the school said "Yup.  That sounds like them."

Mike
You don't get to falsely accuse people of being rapists because they were big jerks. Although I admit I don't have much sympathy for Kobe. 

Re: Derrick Rose being accused of gang rape.
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2015, 01:33:47 PM »

Offline MBunge

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You know some victims that were totally blamed? The Duke Lacross boys. They were victims. They were blamed. They were blamed because the woman lied about them.

They were also blamed because they were apparently HUGE jerks.  I don't think I've ever seen another case where some college kids were accused of something this bad and essentially everyone at the school said "Yup.  That sounds like them."

Mike
You don't get to falsely accuse people of being rapists because they were big jerks. Although I admit I don't have much sympathy for Kobe.

Oh, I'm not trying to minimize what happened to those kids.  But while victim blaming is real, it has also become something of an excuse.  If the Duke lacrosse team hadn't been such enormous tools, they would have had people defending them.

Or take these nude photo scandals.  None of these women should have had their privacy violated but when did amateur **** become a normal part of modern relationships?

Mike