Trade idea for Otto Porter

[saltlover]

3) Accordingly, Porter would play the 3 more.  Wiz have a couple other players on the roster who can approximate Porter's production this year at the 3 in Jared Dudley and Martell Webster. 

Dudely is in his mid 30s. Webster is always hurt. None of these are adequate replacements esp when the players you trading Otto for are non-impact players

Dudley is arguably good enough to start ahead of Porter even if Porter is still on the roster.

Yeah this based on nothing dude. Dudley is way over the hill and is only there for decent spot minutes and locker-room leadership. At this stage in his career other than spot up shooting, he does nothing better than Otto.

4) Turner can serve as a backup to several positions, which gives them roster flexibility.  This can help both limit minutes to players like Beal and Wall who wore down by the end of last season, as well as provide insurance in case of injury.

With Gary Neal, Oubre and Sessions, Wiz have more than enough flexibility at the 1-3 positions. Turner with his lack of a 3ball and defense does not serve much purpose to them

Going to ignore the Olynyk-Turner aspects, because there are endless threads about this and frankly that discussion has gotten boring.

But your opinions on Dudley are sorely lacking in fact.

1) Dudley turned 30 in July -- mid-30's is an absurd description, as is "way over the hill".
2) Dudley, in addition to shooting better than Porter from all over the court, also had an identical DReb%, higher assist%, and higher steal%.  He had a higher PER, VORP, Win Shares, and better on-off numbers.  He even played more minutes at the 4 than did Porter last season.  And for all the talk of Porter's playoff breakout, his PER of 14.1 was beaten by Dudley's playoff PER of 17.2.  At this stage of his career, Dudley does a lot of this better than Porter, and it's a funny insult indeed to say "aside from shooting", which is, you know, pretty important.
3) Speaking of Dudley's shooting, it's very very good.  39.6% for his career, and never below 36% except for his rookie year.  Dudley is going to get a lot of minutes, whether or not Porter is on the team.  Coaches like shooters, for obvious reasons.

As for Gary Neal, that dude shot not much better than Evan Turner last season.  Good for him to get the BAE instead of the minimum, but I'd take Turner over him any day.  And Oubre -- good player, nice potential, but the Wizards are trying to win, and he's not going to get anything more than garbage time minutes this season.  Suggesting that he's any sort of depth is laughable.

But really, if you're going to say things, make sure they're not obviously wrong, like virtually everything you said on Dudley.  It's hard to take anything else you said seriously, because with one of those players, you have no clue.

[zubi.anaba]

Porter is their starting 3 with Pierce gone. They aren't trading him for our list of bench guys unless they have other deals lined up to trade them for a 3.

They aren't going to start Oubre when they want to contend in the weak east. They aren't Philly.

No, but Saltlover's deal seems pretty reasonable. Turner is easily as ready as Porter to handle the three and they get a stretch, playmaking 4 in Olynyk. I am not in love with the trade, but it absolutely makes sense for both sides - the Wizards are going on all-in for Durant next year and we need to trim our roster. Acquiring a player with the upside of Porter gives us a real chance to upgrade while giving up players that aren't likely to hit 'star' status.

Turner cant shoot a lick (esp the 3 ball) and plays no defense. His playmaking is not very valuable to Wiz given the ball is mostly in Walls hands and Beal's ball handling is coming along.

KO sucks and I bet the wiz rather play Porter as a stretch 4 than KO

Okay, so the KO sucks portion I won't debate you on as it's a bit of an irrational point.

As for why such a deal could make sense:

1) Wiz want a 4 who can stretch the floor.  Olynyk can.
2) Wiz do not think Porter can play the 4 all year long -- Wittman has said as much in interviews, so Porter is not the preferred solution.
3) Accordingly, Porter would play the 3 more.  Wiz have a couple other players on the roster who can approximate Porter's production this year at the 3 in Jared Dudley and Martell Webster.  Dudley is arguably good enough to start ahead of Porter even if Porter is still on the roster.
4) Turner can serve as a backup to several positions, which gives them roster flexibility.  This can help both limit minutes to players like Beal and Wall who wore down by the end of last season, as well as provide insurance in case of injury.
5) This saves them $2.3 million in cap room next summer, when they desire to be major free agent players.

Accordingly such a trade of Olynyk and Turner could improve the Wizard's overall team construction, despite the fact they are giving up the better talent (that's why it's a 2-for-1).  Is it likely to happen?  No, very few message board trades are.  Is it ludicrous?  Only if you believe Olynyk and Turner are neither quality NBA players, in which case, you are just wrong and hold grudges against one or both players.

saltlover seriously don't bother with this guy... it will go nowhere. tp

LOL!!!"  !! This dude keeps shooting down all my baseless comments with logic and facts so i dont want anyone else debating with him"!!! 

Pathetic!!

I haven't even made arguments with you here (or really very often in other threads) so I am not sure what you are referring to.  My post is in response to the fact that you have aggressively dominated many threads with non-constructive commentary added (much like the eye roles and calling me pathetic illustrated here) and killed several topics. I would prefer to not see more threads, or a discussion of an interesting trade proposal dragged down to that level.

Last I check you were the 1st one to engage my post to today not the other way round. I called you pathetic because you have gone from screaming about how I am a Cavs fan to now imploring other ppl to not engage in debate with me. Find that incredibly childish and as said 'pathetic'. Just because you seem to lack the intelligence to engage in debate with me doesnt mean others dont have such intelligence. This is a message board for debates afterall

[ThaPreacher]

My sources-sometimes reliable say:
Sullinger- Bradley are on the trade boards for trades before KO and Turner.

Partially because they seem to garnish more in potential returns.
Also this- Ainge is not pleased with Sullinger's historical lack of commitment to conditioning.-though Sully may have turned over a new salad leaf.  Ainge also likes KO's skill set.
Stevens likes Evan Turner's play in his system and his versatility.
Likely, a number of scenarios are being considered. Rozier makes AB expendable-if he shows he can make early gains. Because Marcus is perceivd as the future. IT makes the Celtics better because of his ability to score.

Otto Porter would be a good pick-up.
However, too many times on this blog pundits pitch KO and Turner as trade bait as fodder because they see deficiencies in their game or see less value than Brad Stevens and Danny Ainge do.

Doubt they offer trade positions for any 1st round pick-too valuable.

But good points on all sides in this thread. A little testy. But good points. TP yourself and me while you are at it.

[zubi.anaba]

3) Accordingly, Porter would play the 3 more.  Wiz have a couple other players on the roster who can approximate Porter's production this year at the 3 in Jared Dudley and Martell Webster. 

Dudely is in his mid 30s. Webster is always hurt. None of these are adequate replacements esp when the players you trading Otto for are non-impact players

Dudley is arguably good enough to start ahead of Porter even if Porter is still on the roster.

Yeah this based on nothing dude. Dudley is way over the hill and is only there for decent spot minutes and locker-room leadership. At this stage in his career other than spot up shooting, he does nothing better than Otto.

4) Turner can serve as a backup to several positions, which gives them roster flexibility.  This can help both limit minutes to players like Beal and Wall who wore down by the end of last season, as well as provide insurance in case of injury.

With Gary Neal, Oubre and Sessions, Wiz have more than enough flexibility at the 1-3 positions. Turner with his lack of a 3ball and defense does not serve much purpose to them

Going to ignore the Olynyk-Turner aspects, because there are endless threads about this and frankly that discussion has gotten boring.

But your opinions on Dudley are sorely lacking in fact.

1) Dudley turned 30 in July -- mid-30's is an absurd description, as is "way over the hill".
2) Dudley, in addition to shooting better than Porter from all over the court, also had an identical DReb%, higher assist%, and higher steal%.  He had a higher PER, VORP, Win Shares, and better on-off numbers.  He even played more minutes at the 4 than did Porter last season.  And for all the talk of Porter's playoff breakout, his PER of 14.1 was beaten by Dudley's playoff PER of 17.2.  At this stage of his career, Dudley does a lot of this better than Porter, and it's a funny insult indeed to say "aside from shooting", which is, you know, pretty important.
3) Speaking of Dudley's shooting, it's very very good.  39.6% for his career, and never below 36% except for his rookie year.  Dudley is going to get a lot of minutes, whether or not Porter is on the team.  Coaches like shooters, for obvious reasons.

As for Gary Neal, that dude shot not much better than Evan Turner last season.  Good for him to get the BAE instead of the minimum, but I'd take Turner over him any day.  And Oubre -- good player, nice potential, but the Wizards are trying to win, and he's not going to get anything more than garbage time minutes this season.  Suggesting that he's any sort of depth is laughable.

But really, if you're going to say things, make sure they're not obviously wrong, like virtually everything you said on Dudley.  It's hard to take anything else you said seriously, because with one of those players, you have no clue.

You are right. I goofed on Dudley. Mainly because he looks significantly slower and less athletic than his phoenix days. My point still stands though. His shooting is better but Otto has tons of room to grow while Dudley is declining. Also last PO dudley was mostly guarding Noah vs the Bulls who at this point is a complete non-factor on offense so not giving him much credit for that

As for all the stats you put up, I am sure we will see how comparable they are when they are on the same team. I came to my conclusion based on what exactly Wiz will need from both. Shooting, defense, hustle, being athletic and rebounding. After watching both last season, the only thing I see current dudley does better is shooting and like I said Otto has shown he is more than capable of improving in this area

We will just have to disagree on turner. I already know what he is (decent playmaking, decent mid range, no 3 ball, no defense). I know what Neal is (3 ball and decent bench scorer) but I have no idea what Oubre will be. He has solid shooting mechanics, athleticism aswell and physical tools. Even if I had turner, I already know he is not an impact player. I am taking Neal and Oubre over Turner at this point

[Tr1boy]

Porter is behind beal and wall in terms of being the third option is what I meant. 

Washington is in that weird area where they can get by the 1st round but can't make it past the 2nd .  For the future don't have extra 1st round picks to look fwd to and is not the most attractive destination for FAs.

Having Porter, Beal, Wall is good for the 3-2-1 spots, but have a big hole in the 4 spot. Gortat is like a longer Zeller. Not a pure starting quality center.  Pretty weak bench also

The trade I propose gives them a chance to get past the 2nd round.   And you have a high chance to keep Sullinger, Zeller and even Turner long term.   


Celtics on the other hand have a full house and can afford to trade all of these guys and AB, for a SF with nice potential.   Porter overall package (size,skills, defense, shooting, maturity, motor) reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. Imagine getting a younger Prince to start at the SF spot for a long time. That would be great

[zubi.anaba]

Porter is behind beal and wall in terms of being the third option is what I meant. 

Which is exactly where he should be. He doesnt possess the needed skill set to ever be a number 1 or 2 option on a team with serious Title aspirations

Washington is in that weird area where they can get by the 1st round but can't make it past the 2nd .  For the future don't have extra 1st round picks to look fwd to and is not the most attractive destination for FAs.

Having Porter, Beal, Wall is good for the 3-2-1 spots, but have a big hole in the 4 spot. Gortat is like a longer Zeller. Not a pure starting quality center.  Pretty weak bench also

You are def right about them having abit of a hole at the 4 but KO or Sullinger is most def not the answer to their problems there. Esp when it is going to cost them Otto.

Also I do not buy the notion that Wiz as they are now are not an attractive FA destination. As it is now KD will be heading there next summer if he decides to leave OKC. IF melo was a FA I am sure he would be looking there too. Wash is a decent city and they have more than enough talent in their young core

The trade I propose gives them a chance to get past the 2nd round.   And you have a high chance to keep Sullinger, Zeller and even Turner long term.

 

Based on what exactly? The only impact player in your trade is Bradley but he happens to play the same position as Beal and be too small to play the 3. Sullinger still has huge question marks on his health, weight e.t.c. Worse yet is due for an extension next summer and most likely to be overpaid to keep him. Zeller and Turner are just not impact players. I am really not seeing how the trade gets them past the 2nd round. Hell this trade makes them worse and they might struggle to get past the 1st round

Celtics on the other hand have a full house and can afford to trade all of these guys and AB, for a SF with nice potential.   Porter overall package (size,skills, defense, shooting, maturity, motor) reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. Imagine getting a younger Prince to start at the SF spot for a long time. That would be great

I guess thats the problem with your trade proposal. Otto would be great for the Cs but you see this strictly from the Cs gains POV and not Wiz loss POV

[Tr1boy]

Porter is behind beal and wall in terms of being the third option is what I meant. 

Which is exactly where he should be. He doesnt possess the needed skill set to ever be a number 1 or 2 option on a team with serious Title aspirations

Washington is in that weird area where they can get by the 1st round but can't make it past the 2nd .  For the future don't have extra 1st round picks to look fwd to and is not the most attractive destination for FAs.

Having Porter, Beal, Wall is good for the 3-2-1 spots, but have a big hole in the 4 spot. Gortat is like a longer Zeller. Not a pure starting quality center.  Pretty weak bench also

You are def right about them having abit of a hole at the 4 but KO or Sullinger is most def not the answer to their problems there. Esp when it is going to cost them Otto.

Also I do not buy the notion that Wiz as they are now are not an attractive FA destination. As it is now KD will be heading there next summer if he decides to leave OKC. IF melo was a FA I am sure he would be looking there too. Wash is a decent city and they have more than enough talent in their young core

The trade I propose gives them a chance to get past the 2nd round.   And you have a high chance to keep Sullinger, Zeller and even Turner long term.

 

Based on what exactly? The only impact player in your trade is Bradley but he happens to play the same position as Beal and be too small to play the 3. Sullinger still has huge question marks on his health, weight e.t.c. Worse yet is due for an extension next summer and most likely to be overpaid to keep him. Zeller and Turner are just not impact players. I am really not seeing how the trade gets them past the 2nd round. Hell this trade makes them worse and they might struggle to get past the 1st round

Celtics on the other hand have a full house and can afford to trade all of these guys and AB, for a SF with nice potential.   Porter overall package (size,skills, defense, shooting, maturity, motor) reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. Imagine getting a younger Prince to start at the SF spot for a long time. That would be great

I guess thats the problem with your trade proposal. Otto would be great for the Cs but you see this strictly from the Cs gains POV and not Wiz loss POV

I appreciate your points but I disagree with many

1.  Like I have stated , they have a big hole at the 4 and have a brutal bench.  NBA teams don't win with having three good starters. Heck these days it's tough to get anywhere even if you have 5 solid starters with no bench.   

2.  You underestimate what the addition of Sully (weight loss), Zeller (a very good backup 5 and fringe starter),  Turner (mini triple double) + Bradley can do to pretty much help any team in this league.  I personally don't like losing Sully (a fitter version) but we can't keep everyone. Not everyone will get the proper playing time required

3.  This trade if you see it one way is a win for the Wizards. They get back alot.  These guys if they just came off the bench would makeup a top 5-7 bench in the league.   Again, you should not underestimate what a good bench can do for your team. Last season with IT alone, it made a significant difference for the Celts

4. But yes, on another viewpoint, this trade would be a good for the Celts.   

[zubi.anaba]

Porter is behind beal and wall in terms of being the third option is what I meant. 

Which is exactly where he should be. He doesnt possess the needed skill set to ever be a number 1 or 2 option on a team with serious Title aspirations

Washington is in that weird area where they can get by the 1st round but can't make it past the 2nd .  For the future don't have extra 1st round picks to look fwd to and is not the most attractive destination for FAs.

Having Porter, Beal, Wall is good for the 3-2-1 spots, but have a big hole in the 4 spot. Gortat is like a longer Zeller. Not a pure starting quality center.  Pretty weak bench also

You are def right about them having abit of a hole at the 4 but KO or Sullinger is most def not the answer to their problems there. Esp when it is going to cost them Otto.

Also I do not buy the notion that Wiz as they are now are not an attractive FA destination. As it is now KD will be heading there next summer if he decides to leave OKC. IF melo was a FA I am sure he would be looking there too. Wash is a decent city and they have more than enough talent in their young core

The trade I propose gives them a chance to get past the 2nd round.   And you have a high chance to keep Sullinger, Zeller and even Turner long term.

 

Based on what exactly? The only impact player in your trade is Bradley but he happens to play the same position as Beal and be too small to play the 3. Sullinger still has huge question marks on his health, weight e.t.c. Worse yet is due for an extension next summer and most likely to be overpaid to keep him. Zeller and Turner are just not impact players. I am really not seeing how the trade gets them past the 2nd round. Hell this trade makes them worse and they might struggle to get past the 1st round

Celtics on the other hand have a full house and can afford to trade all of these guys and AB, for a SF with nice potential.   Porter overall package (size,skills, defense, shooting, maturity, motor) reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. Imagine getting a younger Prince to start at the SF spot for a long time. That would be great

I guess thats the problem with your trade proposal. Otto would be great for the Cs but you see this strictly from the Cs gains POV and not Wiz loss POV

I appreciate your points but I disagree with many

1.  Like I have stated , they have a big hole at the 4 and have a brutal bench.  NBA teams don't win with having three good starters. Heck these days it's tough to get anywhere even if you have 5 solid starters with no bench.   

2.  You underestimate what the addition of Sully (weight loss), Zeller (a very good backup 5 and fringe starter),  Turner (mini triple double) + Bradley can do to pretty much help any team in this league.  I personally don't like losing Sully (a fitter version) but we can't keep everyone. Not everyone will get the proper playing time required

3.  This trade if you see it one way is a win for the Wizards. They get back alot.  These guys if they just came off the bench would makeup a top 5-7 bench in the league.   Again, you should not underestimate what a good bench can do for your team. Last season with IT alone, it made a significant difference for the Celts

4. But yes, on another viewpoint, this trade would be a good for the Celts.

Agree to disagree I guess. I just feel that unless you have redundant players on your team, should always look to consolidated talent rather than breaking down it down for multiple role players. Decent role players are always easy together. Legit young studs are much harder to get. And then of course blue chipper young players and Superstar are incredible hard to get. Takes a ton of Luck for both

[BDeCosta26]

Porter is behind beal and wall in terms of being the third option is what I meant. 

Washington is in that weird area where they can get by the 1st round but can't make it past the 2nd .  For the future don't have extra 1st round picks to look fwd to and is not the most attractive destination for FAs.

Having Porter, Beal, Wall is good for the 3-2-1 spots, but have a big hole in the 4 spot. Gortat is like a longer Zeller. Not a pure starting quality center.  Pretty weak bench also

The trade I propose gives them a chance to get past the 2nd round.   And you have a high chance to keep Sullinger, Zeller and even Turner long term.   


Celtics on the other hand have a full house and can afford to trade all of these guys and AB, for a SF with nice potential.   Porter overall package (size,skills, defense, shooting, maturity, motor) reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. Imagine getting a younger Prince to start at the SF spot for a long time. That would be great

I like Porter Jr a lot, and I'm in huge favor of cleaning up some of the log jams we have. But that's just too much to give up for a pretty unproven young guy. Sullinger and AB in itself is too much. I could see it happening before the season because Sullinger has all his question marks but all those guys and picks?! For Otto Porter Jr? That's crazy. If Washington doesn't make that trade, it's because they really like and believe in Porter's ability to develop, not because our guys/picks aren't more valuable.

Sullinger really looks good, and I'm the last one to say that. He's primed for 17/10 through the first couple months of the season. Bradley is a very valuable role player, one who could push a contending team (Think Cleveland in the finals, or OKC) over the top. Now that we have Rozier/Hunter/Young I think he's expendable, but not as part of a 6 piece package for Otto Porter, no way. I'd much rather try to get Adams off the Thunder or something with him.

Zeller is a legit NBA-caliber rotational C. His skillset makes him pretty versatile for a 7 footer, and he's the kind of guy who can get good minutes on a contender. He's not a "rim protector" or a impact defender but he's very good at the P&R, has crafty moves near the bucket, he's super efficient, holds his own defensively and his jump shot is becoming quite reliable. He's a fairly valuable piece, not really a throw in. As far as Turner goes, I think he has to be involved in a deal like this. Washington is looking to make noise in the playoffs. Porter is slotted to be their starting SF. If they deal him, they're going to want a guy who can play good minutes at that spot. I'd wonder about his fit next to Beal/Wall, but they could easily start Dudley and bring in ET off the bench for any of the 1-3 slots.

To me, if Washington was considering dealing him to us they'd want a stretch big, a replacement SF, and at least one decent future asset. I was thinking something like Olynyk or Sully, Turner and one of our own future 1sts or maybe the Minny pick. That sounds more even.