Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris

[Celtics18]

It does make it more likely that Lee will be in competition for those minutes than someone like Keith Bogans or Gerald Wallace were, though.

At least, that's a reasonable conclusion based on what we know about the situation, as well as the roster.

The fact that David Lee is probably a better player than the guys who would be in front of him on the depth chart. either Gerald Wallace or Keith Bogans were when they became Celtics is likely what will him a better shot at being in competition for minutes.

I doubt it has much to do with what Danny Ainge did or didn't tell his agent.

Ftfy, and I'll go back a couple of pages to cite this:

All I can say is I think you're telling yourself a story to avoid being disappointed by the idea that one of the young guys will have to be sitting on the bench.

As my feelings on your position re: Lee as well.

The bolded part is debatable. 

He clearly was better than either Sully or Olynyk two or three years ago.  At age 32, coming off an injury plagued season, I wouldn't call that a surety at this point.

We have all summer to debate this, though.  We won't actually be sure until the season starts.

[Granath]

But hey, at least we get to watch 28 minutes per game of David Lee for a year.

Want to make a wager on that?

I'll be surprised if Lee gets the same number of minutes Brandon Bass got last year.

It'll be fun when people turn on David Lee a month or so into the season when he's getting more minutes than Bass did and Sully and / or Olynyk are sitting on the bench waving towels.


(It was made explicit before Lee was traded that the Warriors were looking to send him someplace he would have a significant role; undoubtedly Lee's agent made sure that would be the case in Boston before signing off on the trade; the Warriors were not required to find a good situation for Lee, but teams care about relationships with agents, so they most assuredly did)

Pho, how do you feel about that prediction now?

[Hemingway]

Well Lee did get the first crack at starting.

[dreamgreen]

Someone said Lee didn't come into camp in good shape and has been working his way into better shape.

[PhoSita]

But hey, at least we get to watch 28 minutes per game of David Lee for a year.

Want to make a wager on that?

I'll be surprised if Lee gets the same number of minutes Brandon Bass got last year.

It'll be fun when people turn on David Lee a month or so into the season when he's getting more minutes than Bass did and Sully and / or Olynyk are sitting on the bench waving towels.


(It was made explicit before Lee was traded that the Warriors were looking to send him someplace he would have a significant role; undoubtedly Lee's agent made sure that would be the case in Boston before signing off on the trade; the Warriors were not required to find a good situation for Lee, but teams care about relationships with agents, so they most assuredly did)

Pho, how do you feel about that prediction now?

Lee started at the beginning of the season and was given every opportunity to keep that role.  He's still playing significant minutes now ahead of Zeller, who might actually have a future here.

So how do I feel about my prediction that Lee would get fed a lot of minutes because he's a vet and they traded for him so they could showcase him as a trade asset and he could rebuild his value?

Seems I was on to something.  Lee has not been very good except for a couple games, and Sullinger has been much better than I expected.  Lee has lost his starting role as a result, though I won't be shocked if Sullinger continues to trend downward in scoring efficiency, or suffers a weight related injury, and Lee gets another crack at it.

Maybe most disappointing has been Amir Johnson.  He has been OK, but not a game changer.

Bottom line, the team is giving a lot of minutes to two vets who have no future here, so I feel like my concerns were and are still well founded.

Lee is not averaging more minutes than Bass last year, or Humphries the year before.  Both those guys took some time to grab those minutes though.  The season is young.

[hwangjini_1]

pho, i like you as a poster. in this particular case  your rebuttal, however, is hanging on a rather thin reed. the celtics may have made some sort of assurances to lee about giving him a try at maybe starting, but i dont see CBS making many decisions based upon such promises.

CBS does what CBS thinks is best for winning. early on lee may have impressed with his offense, he is good at that. but CBS quickly changed his status, as he did zeller's. i doubt any promise was made to zeller either.

to me at least, it seems to be a case of CBS putting out a lineup early on that he thinks will work. it didnt, and to his credit he changed the line up.

[Boris Badenov]

Yeah I don't really see Lee as being brought here with any expectations or promises, other than he'd get a fair shot and would play serious minutes if his play warranted it.

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

[PhoSita]

pho, i like you as a poster. in this particular case  your rebuttal, however, is hanging on a rather thin reed. the celtics may have made some sort of assurances to lee about giving him a try at maybe starting, but i dont see CBS making many decisions based upon such promises.

I'm not sure what more to say.  Lee was in the starting lineup from the beginning of the season.  He wasn't guaranteed a spot regardless of his play, but I don't think I ever said that. 

There were plenty of people who suggested he'd be riding the bench from the beginning.  He didn't.  He was in the starting lineup and given an opportunity at a prominent role.

Sully stole the starting gig from him, however.  Sully has been better than I expected.  Lee has been a little bit worse, though not that much worse than I expected.

The main thing I didn't anticipate / recognize is that David Lee and Tyler Zeller play more or less the same role.  They are both offensive minded centers who pass well but lack reliable range and tend to gravitate toward the basket on offense.

Like I said above, I wouldn't be too surprised if Sullinger suffers an injury, or his scoring efficiency simply continues to regress to where it's been the last couple of years (most notably he's been pretty bad at finishing inside this year), and Lee takes the starting gig back.



David Lee is Kris Humphries 2.0.  That was my impression before the season, and not much has happened to change that impression.


It's true that Sully and KO haven't been on the bench waving towels, so if you just want to dig up this thread to throw that in my face, have at it.  That wasn't meant to be a 100% solid prediction so much as it was something I was worried about happening.

Lee has shifted one of our young guys to a towel waving role, though.

[PhoSita]

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

The harm I see is that we're giving 37 minutes a game to two guys who probably won't be here next year, instead of giving dividing those minutes between the younger guys (Sully, Olynyk, Zeller, Mickey).


It's not like Amir and Lee have taken this team to another level, or anything.  So I don't feel like my misgivings about those acquisitions have been invalidated.

[gift]

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

The harm I see is that we're giving 37 minutes a game to two guys who probably won't be here next year, instead of giving dividing those minutes between the younger guys (Sully, Olynyk, Zeller, Mickey).


It's not like Amir and Lee have taken this team to another level, or anything.  So I don't feel like my misgivings about those acquisitions have been invalidated.

Like you said, the season is young.

[KG Living Legend]

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

The harm I see is that we're giving 37 minutes a game to two guys who probably won't be here next year, instead of giving dividing those minutes between the younger guys (Sully, Olynyk, Zeller, Mickey).


It's not like Amir and Lee have taken this team to another level, or anything.  So I don't feel like my misgivings about those acquisitions have been invalidated.

 I hear you Pho, I was thinking the same thing. Don't want 30 year old Amir back at 12 million, Lee's a gonner, give Mickey some minutes at least.

[Evantime34]

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

The harm I see is that we're giving 37 minutes a game to two guys who probably won't be here next year, instead of giving dividing those minutes between the younger guys (Sully, Olynyk, Zeller, Mickey).


It's not like Amir and Lee have taken this team to another level, or anything.  So I don't feel like my misgivings about those acquisitions have been invalidated.

All the young guys you listed will get an opportunity for extended playing time as the season goes forward, whether it is by injury or trade.

For what it's worth, I think both Johnson and Lee will play well enough to garner trade interest this season.

[MBunge]

And starting him hardly harmed our young guys if one effect was to motivate Sully to play his way into the rotation (rather than being there by default).

The harm I see is that we're giving 37 minutes a game to two guys who probably won't be here next year, instead of giving dividing those minutes between the younger guys (Sully, Olynyk, Zeller, Mickey).


It's not like Amir and Lee have taken this team to another level, or anything.  So I don't feel like my misgivings about those acquisitions have been invalidated.

1.  Zeller stunk his way out of the line up.  He was handed the starting job and was a disaster.

2.  If you want to maximize a guy's trade value, you have to let them play.

3.  This team is above .500 in a much tougher Eastern Conference.  We clearly look much better with Amir and Lee than we did without them.

Mike

[PhoSita]

2.  If you want to maximize a guy's trade value, you have to let them play.

3.  This team is above .500 in a much tougher Eastern Conference.  We clearly look much better with Amir and Lee than we did without them.

Mike

Are they really much better this year with Lee / Amir than they were at the end of last year with Bass instead?

I honestly just don't care about being a 45 win team instead of a 40 win team. 


Yes, Zeller "stunk" his way out of a starting job, but I blame that on Stevens putting him in a bad position, more than anything else.  Lee and Zeller were a horrible fit together.  Zeller needs to be put in lineups with spacing where he can be a rimrunner.

Regardless, I'd rather give the minutes to Zeller and have him figure it out than give the minutes to Lee.  Zeller was one of the most consistent and valuable players on the team last year.  Now he's languishing on the bench.  He's a young player who might actually have trade value, but it's going down the tubes right now.

I also think the "build him up for a trade" thing is silly, because I really doubt anybody is seriously interested in trading for David Lee at this point.

[Granath]

Lee started at the beginning of the season and was given every opportunity to keep that role.  He's still playing significant minutes now ahead of Zeller, who might actually have a future here.

Yet no one was talking about Zeller, including you. You said Sully and KO.

So how do I feel about my prediction that Lee would get fed a lot of minutes because he's a vet and they traded for him so they could showcase him as a trade asset and he could rebuild his value?

Seems I was on to something.  Lee has not been very good except for a couple games, and Sullinger has been much better than I expected.  Lee has lost his starting role as a result, though I won't be shocked if Sullinger continues to trend downward in scoring efficiency, or suffers a weight related injury, and Lee gets another crack at it.

You were on to something? Uh, no. You weren't on to anything because nothing you said is accurate. Lee is playing a career low number of minutes. The only reason that Lee was even starting was because Sully looked so horrible in the preseason. As soon as Sully found his game again (God knows where he put it) he moved into the starting lineup. Even KO has more minutes than Lee.

Maybe most disappointing has been Amir Johnson.  He has been OK, but not a game changer.

Bottom line, the team is giving a lot of minutes to two vets who have no future here, so I feel like my concerns were and are still well founded.

Lee is not averaging more minutes than Bass last year, or Humphries the year before.  Both those guys took some time to grab those minutes though.  The season is young.

Er, what concerns? Amir was going to play on this team in fairly heavy minutes when he was picked up. You don't pay a guy $12m to do nothing. He was considered our best defensive big and thus always had a role different than anyone else on the roster. I don't think that was ever in dispute by anyone.

In short, there's nothing in your post that was even remotely correct.

It'll be fun when people turn on David Lee a month or so into the season when he's getting more minutes than Bass did and Sully and / or Olynyk are sitting on the bench waving towels.