Author Topic: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris  (Read 24090 times)

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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2015, 02:19:02 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Still interested to see what Sully does in a contract year. 

His last 5 games before his injury, he averaged 18 points, 9 rebounds, 4 assists... we actually won 4 of those games.  Then he came back and actually was somewhat impressive in the playoffs... averaging 12 points, 7 rebounds with 55% shooting in 20mpg during the Cavs sweep.

I feel like this would be a sideways move or a tiny upgrade at best.   Markieff Morris is ok and is probably better than Sully, but if we're moving Sullinger we should be getting an obvious upgrade or filling a position of need.  Sully is still only 23 and there's potential there for him to be a legitimate starter.


Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2015, 02:21:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Markieff Morris is ok, but if we're moving Sullinger we should be getting an obvious upgrade or filling a position of need.

I think if you take contract, health, and scoring efficiency into consideration, Markieff is an obvious upgrade over Sullinger.

I don't think we're going to get any huge asset in return for trading Sully.  Also not really confident in his ability to turn into a 30 minute a night regular.  Defense, health, and scoring efficiency are really big question marks for him at this point.  I'm definitely not excited to see the team pay 10-14 million per year to keep him next summer, even if he has a relatively good, healthy year.

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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2015, 02:24:15 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Markieff Morris is ok, but if we're moving Sullinger we should be getting an obvious upgrade or filling a position of need.

I think if you take contract, health, and scoring efficiency into consideration, Markieff is an obvious upgrade over Sullinger.

I don't think we're going to get any huge asset in return for trading Sully.  Also not really confident in his ability to turn into a 30 minute a night regular.  Defense, health, and scoring efficiency are really big question marks for him at this point.  I'm definitely not excited to see the team pay 10-14 million per year to keep him next summer, even if he has a relatively good, healthy year.
As a fat starter, Sully averaged 14.6 points, 8.3 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 blocks, 0.8 steals with 45%/29%/76% shooting. 

Morris averaged 15.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.2 steals with 47%/32%/76% shooting...

Morris is 3 years older (turning 26 in a couple weeks).  I dunno.  I'd rather just give Sully one more chance.  I'm not big on Sully either, but this trade only makes sense if Sullinger's attitude is a far bigger problem behind the scenes than we realize.

I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.

Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2015, 02:26:18 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Markieff Morris is ok, but if we're moving Sullinger we should be getting an obvious upgrade or filling a position of need.

I think if you take contract, health, and scoring efficiency into consideration, Markieff is an obvious upgrade over Sullinger.

I don't think we're going to get any huge asset in return for trading Sully.  Also not really confident in his ability to turn into a 30 minute a night regular.  Defense, health, and scoring efficiency are really big question marks for him at this point.  I'm definitely not excited to see the team pay 10-14 million per year to keep him next summer, even if he has a relatively good, healthy year.
As a fat starter, Sully averaged 14.6 points, 8.3 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 blocks, 0.8 steals with 45%/29%/76% shooting. 

Morris averaged 15.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.2 steals with 47%/32%/76% shooting...

Morris is 3 years older (turning 26 in a couple weeks).  I dunno.  I'd rather just give Sully one more chance.  I'm not big on Sully either, but this trade only makes sense if Sullinger's attitude is a far bigger problem behind the scenes than we realize.

I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.
generally this

Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2015, 02:29:18 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I could see Sully backing up Lee this year... I could see Morris backing up Lee, too.

Roster is a mess.   Too many power forwards and I generally like most of them.  Lee, Sully, Oly, Amir, and Jonas are all power forwards.   Trading one power forward for an older power forward who might be worse next year?... just seems like a waste of time. 

Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2015, 03:19:24 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I could see Sully backing up Lee this year... I could see Morris backing up Lee, too.

Roster is a mess.   Too many power forwards and I generally like most of them.  Lee, Sully, Oly, Amir, and Jonas are all power forwards.   Trading one power forward for an older power forward who might be worse next year?... just seems like a waste of time.

As I argued in the Amir thread, AJ is a center on our team, period!!

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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2015, 04:04:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.


For me it's mostly about the fact that I have faith in Markieff's ability to play close to 82 games, average 30 minutes or more, and shoot over 45% from the field while making less than $10 million per year for the next 4 years.

I don't have much confidence that Sully will play more games, more minutes, or shoot better from the field, and I think he'll probably cost more than $10 million per year to keep unless he suffers a major injury or his weight balloons again.


   Trading one power forward for an older power forward who might be worse next year?... just seems like a waste of time.


To me it's about the opportunity to get somebody who is (a) a proven starter, (b) cost-controlled and (c) under contract beyond this season, and also consolidate some of the roster excess (dump Evan Turner, basically).

That's a really good value, and none of the handful of power forwards on the Celts right now checks all of those boxes. 

Again, I want to be clear that I don't think trading for Markieff would be such an amazing move or anything.  I just think it's a pretty easy decision to make, if the price is reasonable.   

Sully, Turner, and the T-Wolves pick is what I'd offer.  If they want James Young or a Nets pick or something thrown in, forget it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 04:10:41 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 04:07:47 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.


For me it's mostly about the fact that I have faith in Markieff's ability to play close to 82 games, average 30 minutes or more, and shoot over 45% from the field while making less than $10 million per year for the next 4 years.

I don't have much confidence that Sully will play more games, more minutes, or shoot better from the field, and I think he'll probably cost more than $10 million per year to keep unless he suffers a major injury or his weight balloons again.
True. But I also have to ask myself who is more likely to average 19 and 9 and a block in 30 something minutes a game for about 75 games a year in the next two years.  I would think it might be Sully. Granted he'd want to be paid, but still. But I'm not throwing James Young and a draft pick on top of it.

Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 04:10:04 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.


For me it's mostly about the fact that I have faith in Markieff's ability to play close to 82 games, average 30 minutes or more, and shoot over 45% from the field while making less than $10 million per year for the next 4 years.

I don't have much confidence that Sully will play more games, more minutes, or shoot better from the field, and I think he'll probably cost more than $10 million per year to keep unless he suffers a major injury or his weight balloons again.
True. But I also have to ask myself who is more likely to average 19 and 9 and a block in 30 something minutes a game for about 75 games a year in the next two years.  I would think it might be Sully. Granted he'd want to be paid, but still. But I'm not throwing James Young and a draft pick on top of it.


I think Sully is more likely to hit those numbers, but we're talking a 5% chance versus a 3% chance, or something like that.   Neither Sully nor Markieff is going to approach 20-10 for a full season.

In today's league, I think a more mobile guy like Markieff is far likelier to get enough minutes to average a Paul Millsap-esque 16 and 8, though.
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 04:13:45 PM »

Offline Granath

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Markieff Morris is ok, but if we're moving Sullinger we should be getting an obvious upgrade or filling a position of need.

I think if you take contract, health, and scoring efficiency into consideration, Markieff is an obvious upgrade over Sullinger.

I don't think we're going to get any huge asset in return for trading Sully.  Also not really confident in his ability to turn into a 30 minute a night regular.  Defense, health, and scoring efficiency are really big question marks for him at this point.  I'm definitely not excited to see the team pay 10-14 million per year to keep him next summer, even if he has a relatively good, healthy year.

Efficiency? Morris' career number is .479 and Sulinger is .470. Not much of an upgrade there if any given the different systems they play. Their 2 point percentage was the exact same last year. It's quite reasonable to think that Jared's effectiveness will rise as he matures.

Health? Yep. Morris has the clear advantage.

Contract? Nope. Morris costs $8m/year. Sullinger is on the hook for $2.3m this year and a qualifying offer of $3.3 next year. If Sullinger goes for more than $8 on the open market it's because he earned it this year (and therefore be the superior player). Even if Sully got $10m next year, his 4 year total would be almost exactly Morris' next 4 years.

Then there's Sullingers' advantages / Morris' disadvantages. Morris' attitude. Morris' 15 technical fouls last year. Truthfully, character matters and I don't see Morris having it. He's a problem on and off the court. Then there's the advantages of Sullinger's age and significantly better rebounding. If you're not crazy about resigning Jared, I can understand that. But if he does come back and has "a relatively good, healthy year", he'll be worth far more at the trade deadline than Morris.

Ainge doesn't sell low when there's a decent prospect of increasing the value of an asset later. I think everyone would recognize that Sully's value isn't particularly high right now. If he's planning on trading Sully, it's not going to be for a 26 year old malcontent whose upside is no better than fat Sullinger's.
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2015, 04:16:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Contract? Nope. Morris costs $8m/year. Sullinger is on the hook for $2.3m this year and a qualifying offer of $3.3 next year. If Sullinger goes for more than $8 on the open market it's because he earned it this year (and therefore be the superior player).

I think what you're missing here is that guys who "earned" a contract around $8 million (e.g. what Markieff is making for the next few years) are going to be getting $14-16 million on the open market next summer.


True Shooting for the last two years:

Sully - 49.7, 50.3
Markieff - 56.4, 52.3



It's been really interesting to me over the last few days seeing how high people's expectations still are for Sully.   I loved him as a rookie, but I think it's become clear why he fell in the draft.  He's missed a ton of games and he's never really been able to put it together enough to carve out a starting role and score the way I hoped he would.

Also, if you're talking about character, I've honestly never been particularly impressed with Sullinger.  Doesn't seem to take things as seriously as I'd like to see.  In any case, I'm not worried too much about character as a matter of roster construction.  The team identity will flow from whoever our star players are, and we don't know who those guys will be yet.  The star sets the tone.
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2015, 04:19:01 PM »

Offline Granath

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I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.


For me it's mostly about the fact that I have faith in Markieff's ability to play close to 82 games, average 30 minutes or more, and shoot over 45% from the field while making less than $10 million per year for the next 4 years.

I don't have much confidence that Sully will play more games, more minutes, or shoot better from the field, and I think he'll probably cost more than $10 million per year to keep unless he suffers a major injury or his weight balloons again.
True. But I also have to ask myself who is more likely to average 19 and 9 and a block in 30 something minutes a game for about 75 games a year in the next two years.  I would think it might be Sully. Granted he'd want to be paid, but still. But I'm not throwing James Young and a draft pick on top of it.


I think Sully is more likely to hit those numbers, but we're talking a 5% chance versus a 3% chance, or something like that.   Neither Sully nor Markieff is going to approach 20-10 for a full season.

In today's league, I think a more mobile guy like Markieff is far likelier to get enough minutes to average a Paul Millsap-esque 16 and 8, though.

I disagree with your percentages. He's already an 18/10 player per 36. For Sully it's just a matter of staying on the court. If he is in shape - and by all accounts he's in far better shape now than at any point of his NBA career - and can stay healthy (both significant ifs), then he's more than likely to approach those numbers.

Of course, he could hurt his back blowing last night's Mexican All-You-Can-Eat buffet out his ass.  ;D  Time will tell. 
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2015, 04:23:12 PM »

Offline Granath

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Contract? Nope. Morris costs $8m/year. Sullinger is on the hook for $2.3m this year and a qualifying offer of $3.3 next year. If Sullinger goes for more than $8 on the open market it's because he earned it this year (and therefore be the superior player).

I think what you're missing here is that guys who "earned" a contract around $8 million (e.g. what Markieff is making for the next few years) are going to be getting $14-16 million on the open market next summer.

So the cap increases $19m (25%) but salaries double? That doesn't make sense.

There is no open market for Sullinger. He's an RFA with all that entails (including cap holds for the bidding teams, etc.). There's a reason they don't move teams. They didn't last offseason. They didn't this offseason (which had a sizable cap increase). There's no reason to think suddenly they will next offseason, especially with a larger number of UFAs coming on the market.
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 04:51:44 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Contract? Nope. Morris costs $8m/year. Sullinger is on the hook for $2.3m this year and a qualifying offer of $3.3 next year. If Sullinger goes for more than $8 on the open market it's because he earned it this year (and therefore be the superior player).

I think what you're missing here is that guys who "earned" a contract around $8 million (e.g. what Markieff is making for the next few years) are going to be getting $14-16 million on the open market next summer.

So the cap increases $19m (25%) but salaries double? That doesn't make sense.



Teams will be falling over themselves to overpay next year.

In a world where Jae Crowder gets $7 million a year, how much does Sullinger get?  I'm betting he'll make at least 50% more per year than Markieff.
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Re: Rumor: Sully and Jones for Morris
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 05:31:17 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I'm not sure next season Morris will be an obvious upgrade.  Based on health, weight, attitude, etc it's easy to write off Sullinger.  But are you certain that 23 year old Sully is going to be dramatically worse than 26 year old Morris next season?  I'm not.


For me it's mostly about the fact that I have faith in Markieff's ability to play close to 82 games, average 30 minutes or more, and shoot over 45% from the field while making less than $10 million per year for the next 4 years.

I don't have much confidence that Sully will play more games, more minutes, or shoot better from the field, and I think he'll probably cost more than $10 million per year to keep unless he suffers a major injury or his weight balloons again.


   Trading one power forward for an older power forward who might be worse next year?... just seems like a waste of time.


To me it's about the opportunity to get somebody who is (a) a proven starter, (b) cost-controlled and (c) under contract beyond this season, and also consolidate some of the roster excess (dump Evan Turner, basically).

That's a really good value, and none of the handful of power forwards on the Celts right now checks all of those boxes. 

Again, I want to be clear that I don't think trading for Markieff would be such an amazing move or anything.  I just think it's a pretty easy decision to make, if the price is reasonable.   

Sully, Turner, and the T-Wolves pick is what I'd offer.  If they want James Young or a Nets pick or something thrown in, forget it.









Really agree with you on Sulinger. His attitude has really been poor. That's why it's so important for a smart to become the best player of the team right now or really soon Crowder is well he needs to be a major part of the team which I'm sure it will be those guys are tough.