Author Topic: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?  (Read 10304 times)

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Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2015, 11:00:06 PM »

Offline max215

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Everybody thinks they're a max player these days.  It's nuts.

Frankly, he's not worth the 80M they offered him in the first place.

I hope they commit the big cash to him anyway. 

Lebron might have a solid career as a GM someday.

Like Mike.

He will get a lot of money next offseason when everyone has cap space if Cleveland doesn't sign him. They can't spend the money on anything else anyway since they are over the cap so they should sign him. Plus it would be a bad look if they didn't.

Yeah, I honestly think that if TT walks away from Cleveland, it could actually hurt them a lot. 

They picked up Mo Williams to basically replace JR Smith, and aside from that they really haven't added anybody to improve their roster. Who knows how long they might be without Kevin Love (and how long it will take after his return before he gets his game back).  Varejao was already declining as it is, and coming back from a major injury likely won't help. 

If they lose Thompson as well, they could actually get significantly worse...and yet with so much cap space committed to Lebron, Love, Irving, Mosgov and Shumpert they don't really have the space to sign a replacement...and won't have for years.

I think this is a classic case where Thompson is worth more to the Cavs then he is to any other team because the Cavs are so far over the cap that the only way they can secure talent is be re-signing existing players...so I feel like their securing of Thompson could be more critical to them than people realise.

If Love doesn't return until near the All-Star break, and then it takes him half a season to get his form back...then that Thompson / Mosgov front court pairing could be pretty critical for them.

Plus Lebron has played over 900 games and 35,000 minutes over his 12 year career so far, and has played over 92% of possible games over that stretch.  He's had a ridiculously healthy career,   and now that he's just moving in to his 30's you have to wonder if all of those minutes will start taking their toll soon.

I mean KG was at exactly the same point in his career when he got traded to Boston (30 years old, 12th season in the league) and up until that point he was rediculously durable (he had played in 94% of possible games).  He basically had one healthy season in Boston in 2008, and then from there it all went downhill pretty suddenly.

If something similar happens to Lebron (who has had a very similar career so far in terms of minutes / games / health) the Cavs situation could fall apart very quickly given how committed they are financially over the next 4-5 years.

Especially given the questionable medical history of Kevin Love.

Totally agree. Thompson would be a HUGE loss for the Cavs. While Kevin Love is far and away the better player of the two, Thompson is a much better fit for a team with two ball dominant stars in LeBron and Kyrie. The ideal turn of events for Cleveland would be as follows IMO:

1. Lock Thompson up long term
2. Once his contract allows for it, trade Kevin Love for depth and future picks

Yh max out the significantly less talented and replaceable player then trade the more talented and less replaceable player for picks . Esp when you trying to win now! Ok then

The Cavs are a better team with Thompson than with with Love. It's about the fit, not talent. Depth would solve the one major downfall of last year's team and future picks would provide cost controlled players for a financially restricted team, so yeah, it makes sense. Not to mention, other GM's are on record saying that they expect Love to be on the trade block some time soon:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2015-07-02/nba-free-agency-2015-cleveland-cavaliers-lebron-james-kevin-love-jr-smith-iman-shumpert-tristan-thompson
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Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2015, 11:16:30 PM »

Offline zubi.anaba

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Everybody thinks they're a max player these days.  It's nuts.

Frankly, he's not worth the 80M they offered him in the first place.

I hope they commit the big cash to him anyway. 

Lebron might have a solid career as a GM someday.

Like Mike.

He will get a lot of money next offseason when everyone has cap space if Cleveland doesn't sign him. They can't spend the money on anything else anyway since they are over the cap so they should sign him. Plus it would be a bad look if they didn't.

Yeah, I honestly think that if TT walks away from Cleveland, it could actually hurt them a lot. 

They picked up Mo Williams to basically replace JR Smith, and aside from that they really haven't added anybody to improve their roster. Who knows how long they might be without Kevin Love (and how long it will take after his return before he gets his game back).  Varejao was already declining as it is, and coming back from a major injury likely won't help. 

If they lose Thompson as well, they could actually get significantly worse...and yet with so much cap space committed to Lebron, Love, Irving, Mosgov and Shumpert they don't really have the space to sign a replacement...and won't have for years.

I think this is a classic case where Thompson is worth more to the Cavs then he is to any other team because the Cavs are so far over the cap that the only way they can secure talent is be re-signing existing players...so I feel like their securing of Thompson could be more critical to them than people realise.

If Love doesn't return until near the All-Star break, and then it takes him half a season to get his form back...then that Thompson / Mosgov front court pairing could be pretty critical for them.

Plus Lebron has played over 900 games and 35,000 minutes over his 12 year career so far, and has played over 92% of possible games over that stretch.  He's had a ridiculously healthy career,   and now that he's just moving in to his 30's you have to wonder if all of those minutes will start taking their toll soon.

I mean KG was at exactly the same point in his career when he got traded to Boston (30 years old, 12th season in the league) and up until that point he was rediculously durable (he had played in 94% of possible games).  He basically had one healthy season in Boston in 2008, and then from there it all went downhill pretty suddenly.

If something similar happens to Lebron (who has had a very similar career so far in terms of minutes / games / health) the Cavs situation could fall apart very quickly given how committed they are financially over the next 4-5 years.

Especially given the questionable medical history of Kevin Love.

Totally agree. Thompson would be a HUGE loss for the Cavs. While Kevin Love is far and away the better player of the two, Thompson is a much better fit for a team with two ball dominant stars in LeBron and Kyrie. The ideal turn of events for Cleveland would be as follows IMO:

1. Lock Thompson up long term
2. Once his contract allows for it, trade Kevin Love for depth and future picks

Yh max out the significantly less talented and replaceable player then trade the more talented and less replaceable player for picks . Esp when you trying to win now! Ok then

The Cavs are a better team with Thompson than with with Love. It's about the fit, not talent.

This is based on what exactly?? The fact that all metrics show Cavs being better on Off and Def with Love in the line up? The 30-4 record post mid season trades with LOve playing starting minutes and TT coming of the bench?? Or maybe it was TTs amazing performance in the finals that have Cavs in a hurry to max him out??

 
Depth would solve the one major downfall of last year's team and future picks would provide cost controlled players for a financially restricted team, so yeah, it makes sense.


Cavs had 2 of their best 3 players (who both play 34+mins) hurt finals hence the depth issues!! Maybe you show me a team that won missing 2 of their best 3 players then you will have a point. I am sure GS would have had no depth issues if Klay thompson and Green were hurt eh??

Not to mention, other GM's are on record saying that they expect Love to be on the trade block some time soon:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2015-07-02/nba-free-agency-2015-cleveland-cavaliers-lebron-james-kevin-love-jr-smith-iman-shumpert-tristan-thompson

Yeah GMsources were also screaming Love was gone from the Cavs by the end of the season. Yet he didnt even bother meeting any teams and re-signed(like I had predicted all along). Sorry if I find it hard to take the so called GM sources seriously

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2015, 11:20:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Everybody thinks they're a max player these days.  It's nuts.

Frankly, he's not worth the 80M they offered him in the first place.

I hope they commit the big cash to him anyway. 

Lebron might have a solid career as a GM someday.

Like Mike.

He will get a lot of money next offseason when everyone has cap space if Cleveland doesn't sign him. They can't spend the money on anything else anyway since they are over the cap so they should sign him. Plus it would be a bad look if they didn't.

Yeah, I honestly think that if TT walks away from Cleveland, it could actually hurt them a lot. 

They picked up Mo Williams to basically replace JR Smith, and aside from that they really haven't added anybody to improve their roster. Who knows how long they might be without Kevin Love (and how long it will take after his return before he gets his game back).  Varejao was already declining as it is, and coming back from a major injury likely won't help. 

If they lose Thompson as well, they could actually get significantly worse...and yet with so much cap space committed to Lebron, Love, Irving, Mosgov and Shumpert they don't really have the space to sign a replacement...and won't have for years.

I think this is a classic case where Thompson is worth more to the Cavs then he is to any other team because the Cavs are so far over the cap that the only way they can secure talent is be re-signing existing players...so I feel like their securing of Thompson could be more critical to them than people realise.

If Love doesn't return until near the All-Star break, and then it takes him half a season to get his form back...then that Thompson / Mosgov front court pairing could be pretty critical for them.

Plus Lebron has played over 900 games and 35,000 minutes over his 12 year career so far, and has played over 92% of possible games over that stretch.  He's had a ridiculously healthy career,   and now that he's just moving in to his 30's you have to wonder if all of those minutes will start taking their toll soon.

I mean KG was at exactly the same point in his career when he got traded to Boston (30 years old, 12th season in the league) and up until that point he was rediculously durable (he had played in 94% of possible games).  He basically had one healthy season in Boston in 2008, and then from there it all went downhill pretty suddenly.

If something similar happens to Lebron (who has had a very similar career so far in terms of minutes / games / health) the Cavs situation could fall apart very quickly given how committed they are financially over the next 4-5 years.

Especially given the questionable medical history of Kevin Love.

Klove is scheduled to be ready for training camp. Not sure what you are on about

Wasn't sure of when he was due to return (i don't research Kevin Love updates!) but the playoffs weren't that long ago and I remember how long Bradley too to return from his shoulder surgery after his dislocations.

We lost Bradley about the same time during the season as Cleveland lost Love, and from what I remember Bradley didn't come back until about 1/4 of the way through the season (if that).  When he did every aspect of his game (ball handling, passing, shooting, defense) took a pretty significant step back for the duration of the season.  His 3PT% dropped from 40% the previous season to around 31% that season, and it wasn't until the following season that it got back up to around the 40% mark again.  Bradley (as always) could somewhere still remain effective based purely on his ability to play defense, but his offensive games was hugely affected by that surgery for about one full year from the time of his surgery.

No idea if Love will follow that same a pattern, but he is a perimeter oriented big man, and his his entire offensive game pretty much revolves around his jumpshot and his passing (his post game has been practically non-existent the past two seasons).  If he takes as long to get his shooting back as AB did, then Love essentially becomes a rebounding role player until he can find his shot again - which makes him potentially no better than Tristan Thompson. 

I would also expect Cleveland to take it easy with his return schedule, based on his past injury history.  If he tries to rush it back, then I worry he might do a "Kobe" and get injured again after 2 weeks of play.     

It's an interesting scenario, I'll be curious to see how it pans out.  Honestly, I believe Love is far and away the third most important guy (behind Lebron and Irving) on that team anyway, but he's still an important piece an they'll need him to be at (or near) his best if they are to repeat last season's success in a slightly improved Eastern Conference. 

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2015, 11:30:46 PM »

Offline zubi.anaba

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Everybody thinks they're a max player these days.  It's nuts.

Frankly, he's not worth the 80M they offered him in the first place.

I hope they commit the big cash to him anyway. 

Lebron might have a solid career as a GM someday.

Like Mike.

He will get a lot of money next offseason when everyone has cap space if Cleveland doesn't sign him. They can't spend the money on anything else anyway since they are over the cap so they should sign him. Plus it would be a bad look if they didn't.

Yeah, I honestly think that if TT walks away from Cleveland, it could actually hurt them a lot. 

They picked up Mo Williams to basically replace JR Smith, and aside from that they really haven't added anybody to improve their roster. Who knows how long they might be without Kevin Love (and how long it will take after his return before he gets his game back).  Varejao was already declining as it is, and coming back from a major injury likely won't help. 

If they lose Thompson as well, they could actually get significantly worse...and yet with so much cap space committed to Lebron, Love, Irving, Mosgov and Shumpert they don't really have the space to sign a replacement...and won't have for years.

I think this is a classic case where Thompson is worth more to the Cavs then he is to any other team because the Cavs are so far over the cap that the only way they can secure talent is be re-signing existing players...so I feel like their securing of Thompson could be more critical to them than people realise.

If Love doesn't return until near the All-Star break, and then it takes him half a season to get his form back...then that Thompson / Mosgov front court pairing could be pretty critical for them.

Plus Lebron has played over 900 games and 35,000 minutes over his 12 year career so far, and has played over 92% of possible games over that stretch.  He's had a ridiculously healthy career,   and now that he's just moving in to his 30's you have to wonder if all of those minutes will start taking their toll soon.

I mean KG was at exactly the same point in his career when he got traded to Boston (30 years old, 12th season in the league) and up until that point he was rediculously durable (he had played in 94% of possible games).  He basically had one healthy season in Boston in 2008, and then from there it all went downhill pretty suddenly.

If something similar happens to Lebron (who has had a very similar career so far in terms of minutes / games / health) the Cavs situation could fall apart very quickly given how committed they are financially over the next 4-5 years.

Especially given the questionable medical history of Kevin Love.

Klove is scheduled to be ready for training camp. Not sure what you are on about

Wasn't sure of when he was due to return (i don't research Kevin Love updates!) but the playoffs weren't that long ago and I remember how long Bradley too to return from his shoulder surgery after his dislocations.

We lost Bradley about the same time during the season as Cleveland lost Love, and from what I remember Bradley didn't come back until about 1/4 of the way through the season (if that).  When he did every aspect of his game (ball handling, passing, shooting, defense) took a pretty significant step back for the duration of the season.  His 3PT% dropped from 40% the previous season to around 31% that season, and it wasn't until the following season that it got back up to around the 40% mark again.  Bradley (as always) could somewhere still remain effective based purely on his ability to play defense, but his offensive games was hugely affected by that surgery for about one full year from the time of his surgery.

No idea if Love will follow that same a pattern, but he is a perimeter oriented big man, and his his entire offensive game pretty much revolves around his jumpshot and his passing (his post game has been practically non-existent the past two seasons).  If he takes as long to get his shooting back as AB did, then Love essentially becomes a rebounding role player until he can find his shot again - which makes him potentially no better than Tristan Thompson. 

I would also expect Cleveland to take it easy with his return schedule, based on his past injury history.  If he tries to rush it back, then I worry he might do a "Kobe" and get injured again after 2 weeks of play.     

It's an interesting scenario, I'll be curious to see how it pans out.  Honestly, I believe Love is far and away the third most important guy (behind Lebron and Irving) on that team anyway, but he's still an important piece an they'll need him to be at (or near) his best if they are to repeat last season's success in a slightly improved Eastern Conference.

If i remember correctly, AB had issues in both shoulder  and hence had both shoulders operated on. But you apparently cant work on both shoulders at the same time so need to do one, let it heal then do the other.

Love only had 1 shoulder as the problem. Was a 4 month recovery time with rehab from way back in May. Training camp is September which is a good 4 months. Opening night is end of Oct. That would be 6 months since the injury. He will be good to go. Same with Kyrie

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2015, 11:35:36 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Cavs had 2 of their best 3 players (who both play 34+mins) hurt finals hence the depth issues!! Maybe you show me a team that won missing 2 of their best 3 players then you will have a point. I am sure GS would have had no depth issues if Klay thompson and Green were hurt eh??

Hence the danger of taking the top-heavy approach that Cleveland has taken, with $60M committed to three guys over the next two seasons.

If they sign Thompson to the reported $80M/5 deal they would have $76M committed to just 4 guys.  Even when the cap reaches $100M that's still going to be over 75% of the team's salary in four guys.

It also doesn't allow for Mozgov, who's contact expires after this season and (being a youngn') will probably be looking for the type of payday Cleveland can't offer.

This is definitely a valid approach to competing, and we can see that quite obviously based on the fact that Cleveland made the finals last year.  However it's also VERY risky approach because your lack of depth means that if your main man (i.e. Lebron) gets hurt, it's all over.

Also take Clevleand making the Finals with a grain of salt - they really didn't have that much competition out in the East to be fair, and I think they would have seen the same result (beaten in the Finals) regardless of whether they played Golden State, Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, the Clippers, or just about any of the top 6 teams in the West.  I'm also not convinced that the Cavs (if they did have Love and Irving) would have beaten Golden State.  I think it would have been very close.

They put up a good fight against Golden State, credit where it's due.  But from what I saw the Warriors messed up early by not taking them seriously with Kyrie/Love out, and they paid the price in the form if a couple of early losses...yet they still came out with a pretty convincing 4-2 victory.  If they hadn't underestimated the Cavs, at the start, it probably would have been a 4-0 sweep (or at the very least, a 4-1 victory) for the Warriors. 

« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 11:43:55 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2015, 11:42:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Everybody thinks they're a max player these days.  It's nuts.

Frankly, he's not worth the 80M they offered him in the first place.

I hope they commit the big cash to him anyway. 

Lebron might have a solid career as a GM someday.

Like Mike.

He will get a lot of money next offseason when everyone has cap space if Cleveland doesn't sign him. They can't spend the money on anything else anyway since they are over the cap so they should sign him. Plus it would be a bad look if they didn't.

Yeah, I honestly think that if TT walks away from Cleveland, it could actually hurt them a lot. 

They picked up Mo Williams to basically replace JR Smith, and aside from that they really haven't added anybody to improve their roster. Who knows how long they might be without Kevin Love (and how long it will take after his return before he gets his game back).  Varejao was already declining as it is, and coming back from a major injury likely won't help. 

If they lose Thompson as well, they could actually get significantly worse...and yet with so much cap space committed to Lebron, Love, Irving, Mosgov and Shumpert they don't really have the space to sign a replacement...and won't have for years.

I think this is a classic case where Thompson is worth more to the Cavs then he is to any other team because the Cavs are so far over the cap that the only way they can secure talent is be re-signing existing players...so I feel like their securing of Thompson could be more critical to them than people realise.

If Love doesn't return until near the All-Star break, and then it takes him half a season to get his form back...then that Thompson / Mosgov front court pairing could be pretty critical for them.

Plus Lebron has played over 900 games and 35,000 minutes over his 12 year career so far, and has played over 92% of possible games over that stretch.  He's had a ridiculously healthy career,   and now that he's just moving in to his 30's you have to wonder if all of those minutes will start taking their toll soon.

I mean KG was at exactly the same point in his career when he got traded to Boston (30 years old, 12th season in the league) and up until that point he was rediculously durable (he had played in 94% of possible games).  He basically had one healthy season in Boston in 2008, and then from there it all went downhill pretty suddenly.

If something similar happens to Lebron (who has had a very similar career so far in terms of minutes / games / health) the Cavs situation could fall apart very quickly given how committed they are financially over the next 4-5 years.

Especially given the questionable medical history of Kevin Love.

Klove is scheduled to be ready for training camp. Not sure what you are on about

Wasn't sure of when he was due to return (i don't research Kevin Love updates!) but the playoffs weren't that long ago and I remember how long Bradley too to return from his shoulder surgery after his dislocations.

We lost Bradley about the same time during the season as Cleveland lost Love, and from what I remember Bradley didn't come back until about 1/4 of the way through the season (if that).  When he did every aspect of his game (ball handling, passing, shooting, defense) took a pretty significant step back for the duration of the season.  His 3PT% dropped from 40% the previous season to around 31% that season, and it wasn't until the following season that it got back up to around the 40% mark again.  Bradley (as always) could somewhere still remain effective based purely on his ability to play defense, but his offensive games was hugely affected by that surgery for about one full year from the time of his surgery.

No idea if Love will follow that same a pattern, but he is a perimeter oriented big man, and his his entire offensive game pretty much revolves around his jumpshot and his passing (his post game has been practically non-existent the past two seasons).  If he takes as long to get his shooting back as AB did, then Love essentially becomes a rebounding role player until he can find his shot again - which makes him potentially no better than Tristan Thompson. 

I would also expect Cleveland to take it easy with his return schedule, based on his past injury history.  If he tries to rush it back, then I worry he might do a "Kobe" and get injured again after 2 weeks of play.     

It's an interesting scenario, I'll be curious to see how it pans out.  Honestly, I believe Love is far and away the third most important guy (behind Lebron and Irving) on that team anyway, but he's still an important piece an they'll need him to be at (or near) his best if they are to repeat last season's success in a slightly improved Eastern Conference.

If i remember correctly, AB had issues in both shoulder  and hence had both shoulders operated on. But you apparently cant work on both shoulders at the same time so need to do one, let it heal then do the other.

Love only had 1 shoulder as the problem. Was a 4 month recovery time with rehab from way back in May. Training camp is September which is a good 4 months. Opening night is end of Oct. That would be 6 months since the injury. He will be good to go. Same with Kyrie

Even if that is true (we'll see) it still doesn't answer the question of how his game will be affected. 

As it is, Love is already a poor defender who's role in Clevleand has essentially restricted him to standing on the perimeter and chucking up threes.   How will his injury affect that?

How will it affect his ability to play with full contact (scoring and rebounding) in the paint?

I guess time will tell.

I'm less worried about Kyrie, but Love's history concerns me.  He's only played in 62% of possible games over his 7 year NBA career - that almost makes Avery Bradley's history look impressive.

Anyway, we will have to see. 

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2015, 11:44:34 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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Reading he will sign a QO and he and his agent are p---ed off.  They are not resigning after this season.

Should the Celts offer Sully, Zeller and Turner for TT ?

I actually really like the Sullinger fit in Cleveland for the LeBron connection. LeBrons always been a Sullinger supporter and might welcome the chance to play with him.

Before Thompson became a max guy and the Cavs acuirred Kevin Love, I used to kick around the idea of a Thompson for Sullinger swap. Don't think they'd be as interested now but if you throw in another Ohio State star in Turner and a rim runner who can keep up with LeBron when they want to get out and move in Zeller you might have just enough to pry Thompson away.

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2015, 11:54:02 PM »

Offline zubi.anaba

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Cavs had 2 of their best 3 players (who both play 34+mins) hurt finals hence the depth issues!! Maybe you show me a team that won missing 2 of their best 3 players then you will have a point. I am sure GS would have had no depth issues if Klay thompson and Green were hurt eh??

Hence the danger of taking the top-heavy approach that Cleveland has taken, with $60M committed to three guys over the next two seasons.

Again Cavs were without 2 of their best 3 players and lost. NO team has ever won under those circumstances. If Cavs are taking a top heavy approach then so has every NBA Title winner in history. So chances are they are on the right track

If they sign Thompson to the reported $80M/5 deal they would have $76M committed to just 4 guys.  Even when the cap reaches $100M that's still going to be over 75% of the team's salary in four guys.

Hence why no have no intention of signing TT to such a contract.

It also doesn't allow for Mozgov, who's contact expires after this season and (being a youngn') will probably be looking for the type of payday Cleveland can't offer.

Mosgov is more important to the Cavs than TT  due to his rim protection and offensive versatility. He will be re-signed.

This is definitely a valid approach to competing, and we can see that quite obviously based on the fact that Cleveland made the finals last year.  However it's also VERY risky approach because your lack of depth means that if your main man (i.e. Lebron) gets hurt, it's all over.

Well hey if MJ got hurt it would have been all over. If Kobe got HUrt it would have been all over. If Bird got hurt, it would been all over. If Curry got hurt it would be all over. Turns out when teams lose by far their best player, chances of winning reduces significantly! Guess thats breaking news eh?

Also take Clevleand making the Finals with a grain of salt - they really didn't have that much competition out in the East to be fair, and I think they would have seen the same result (beaten in the Finals) regardless of whether they played Golden State, Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, the Clippers, or just about any of the top 6 teams in the West.

Funny how Cavs were 6-4 vs all those teams over the season and 6-1 post mid season trades vs those same teams including embarrasing blowouts vs Memphis, Clippers and Warriors. But yh when fully healthy, those teams would magically beat the Cavs in the PO ::) ::)

They put up a good fight against Golden State, credit where it's due.  But from what I saw the Warriors messed up early by not taking them seriously with Kyrie/Love out, and they paid the price in the form if a couple of early losses...yet they still came out with a pretty convincing 4-2 victory.  If they hadn't underestimated the Cavs, at the start, it probably would have been a 4-0 sweep (or at the very least, a 4-1 victory) for the Warriors.

Warriors never initially took Cavs seriously!!!Yup all Warriors had to do was radically change their whole starting line to beat a significantly decimated team!! I mean that starting line up had ran through the big bad West and put up historically RS numbers but they had to alter it completely to beat a decimated team. Def shows how much they didnt initially take Cavs seriously

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2015, 12:29:17 AM »

Offline ThePoeticWolf

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Reading he will sign a QO and he and his agent are p---ed off.  They are not resigning after this season.

Should the Celts offer Sully, Zeller and Turner for TT ?

You got to be joking or drinking a lot.  Thompson is not worth those three, specially without a contract. 

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2015, 12:52:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Again Cavs were without 2 of their best 3 players and lost. NO team has ever won under those circumstances. If Cavs are taking a top heavy approach then so has every NBA Title winner in history. So chances are they are on the right track

Which is exactly my point...

Taking a 'top heavy' approach means you are taking that very risk.  Your entire title hopes rest on the shoulders of 2 or 3 guys.  One or two of those guys get hurt, and your championship hopes are dead.

We had exactly the same problem after our 2008 title.  We were on track for #19 in 2009 until we lost KG for the season, and then our chances of a title were done.   We never had a serious bench in any of those years - our starters had to carry us.  If we had Pierce and Ray plus a solid bench to go with it...maybe things would have been different, even with KG lost.

I honestly believe the Cleveland would have needed all three of their JKL (James, Kyrie, Love) trio in order to have a legit hope of beating Golden State in a 7 game series - losing any one of those three guys IMO eliminated their chance of a title.

Likewise Miami would have needed Wade, Bosh and Lebron all healthy and playing at 100% strength to beat San Antonio in 2013/14.

Now the Warriors did not take a top-heavy approach.  They do have two star players in Curry and Thompson, true.  But they also had a LOT of depth. If they lost their third best player (probably Green) then Lee and/or Bogut would have had more minutes, and they probably wouldn't lose that much.  If Thompson got hurt then Iggy and Barnes would have had more opportunities to make an impact.  The only guy who would have really crippled Golden State would be losing Curry probably - in this case you're only dependent on one guy, rather than Cleveland who are dependent on all three staying healthy.

Same with the San Antonio Spurs in 2013/14 - that team was all about depth and teamwork, and it was too much for Miami's top heavy approach to match because Miami just didn't have enough depth to match the Spur's balanced assault.  If San Antonio Lost any one of Parker, Duncan or Leonard, they probably still would have had a good chance.  Obviously if they lost two or more of those guys, they'd be toast. 

But that's the thing - no bench means you become dependent entirely on a three headed monster staying healthy.  If that happens and you get lucky, then you're in great shape. 

Hence why no have no intention of signing TT to such a contract.

Yet if they don't, they are likely to be even worse off than if they do...because without Thompson they are completely dependent on Kevin Love and Andersen Varejao both being healthy, and both being productive - and that's a big gamble given the history of both players.

Mosgov is more important to the Cavs than TT  due to his rim protection and offensive versatility. He will be re-signed.

IMHO they really need both.  Their PF spot is at too much risk without Thompson, and their Center spot is too thin without Mosgov. 

It's a "[dang]ed if you do, [dang]ed if you don't" situation.

Maybe they can sign both, but it will push them way, way into luxury tax for a long time.  Are they willing to do that?  Not sure, maybe.

Well hey if MJ got hurt it would have been all over. If Kobe got HUrt it would have been all over. If Bird got hurt, it would been all over. If Curry got hurt it would be all over. Turns out when teams lose by far their best player, chances of winning reduces significantly! Guess thats breaking news eh?

Difference is that those teams were mainly dependent on one guy, maybe two at most.  The Bulls were dependant on MJ, and maybe Pippen - that's two guys at the most.  Who was their third best player in the first three peat?  If they lost their third best player, they still have a strong shot at a title. 

Same with the Lakers.  Bynum was probably their third best player, but they managed to win anyway because even with Bynum mostly out, they still had Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Ariza, etc.

Cleveland might not be so lucky - if they lose their third best player (be that Kyrie or Love) then they can still make a deep playoff run (especially in the weak east) but their shot at a title is IMHO dramatically reduced.

Funny how Cavs were 6-4 vs all those teams over the season and 6-1 post mid season trades vs those same teams including embarrassing blowouts vs Memphis, Clippers and Warriors. But yh when fully healthy, those teams would magically beat the Cavs in the PO ::) ::)

That's when fully healthy...

My comment was a reference to the fact that people were impressed by Cleveland's ability to win a couple of games against the best team in the West despite being down 2/3 star players.

I'm saying that the feat isn't as impressive as it seems.  If Cleveland played any of the top 5 or 6 teams in the West without Love and Kyrie, then I strongly doubt they would have won.

Hence Cleveland's ability to make the finals despite their injuries is (IMO) more a reflection of how weak the East was, rather than a reflection of how strong Cleveland was.

Also everybody knows that the regular season and playoffs are two different beats.  The Celtics gave Miami major trouble in the regular season throughout the 'superfriend' years, but we were never able to beat them in a 7 game series.

Warriors never initially took Cavs seriously!!!Yup all Warriors had to do was radically change their whole starting line to beat a significantly decimated team!! I mean that starting line up had ran through the big bad West and put up historically RS numbers but they had to alter it completely to beat a decimated team. Def shows how much they didnt initially take Cavs seriously

Did you watch the first couple of games?

It was basically Stephen Curry running around jacking up horrible contested threes from 5 feet outside the three point line all night long, and then wondering why they were struggling.

It's a natural subconscious response for teams to not play as hard when you are up against a depleted (or weaker) team.  That's why the Celtics in the Big 3 era tended to struggle against bad teams, but they'd beat the good teams.  It's not because they consciously don't care, it's because subconsciously you feel like you have the advantage, and you can somewhat 'cruise'. 

That combined with the fact that the opponent usually has the opposite mentality - they know they are weakened, so their subconscious reaction is typically to play  twice as hard because you know you need to in order to have a fighting chance.

To me, from watching the games, it seemed pretty clear that Golden State thought they had this.  Consciously they knew they couldn't play soft, but subconsciously they were like "they are weak, We've got this".  They didn't expect Cleveland to fight the way they did, and they quickly got a rude shock.

That's how I saw it anyway - you don't need to agree, but that's my observation.

Anyways at the end of the day my point is this - the Cleveland has done nothing to improve this year, yet they have some question marks (will TT return, how productive will Love be?) and they are massively committed financially for years to come.

I feel like last year (after the trade) they had a good shot at a title, and they ran in to some bad luck. 

This year I think their chance of a title is reduced given that some WC teams (San Antonio, Houston and the Clippers for example) got much stronger combined with the fact that Cleveland themselves failed to make improvements. 

From 2016-17 on-wards their chance of a title could be under major threat, because we don't yet know if Tristan Thompson will still be there, and because so many teams will have cap space by that time...while the Cavs will really only be able to add players via min contracts, MLE and trades.  Plus the fact that Lebron and Love have already reached their ceilings, so Irving is really the only one on the team with much potential.

Of course they may well win multiple championships for all we know, but their future might actually not look as bright as many think.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 01:09:16 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2015, 06:58:34 AM »

Offline chambers

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Again Cavs were without 2 of their best 3 players and lost. NO team has ever won under those circumstances. If Cavs are taking a top heavy approach then so has every NBA Title winner in history. So chances are they are on the right track

Which is exactly my point...

Taking a 'top heavy' approach means you are taking that very risk.  Your entire title hopes rest on the shoulders of 2 or 3 guys.  One or two of those guys get hurt, and your championship hopes are dead.

We had exactly the same problem after our 2008 title.  We were on track for #19 in 2009 until we lost KG for the season, and then our chances of a title were done.   We never had a serious bench in any of those years - our starters had to carry us.  If we had Pierce and Ray plus a solid bench to go with it...maybe things would have been different, even with KG lost.

I honestly believe the Cleveland would have needed all three of their JKL (James, Kyrie, Love) trio in order to have a legit hope of beating Golden State in a 7 game series - losing any one of those three guys IMO eliminated their chance of a title.

Likewise Miami would have needed Wade, Bosh and Lebron all healthy and playing at 100% strength to beat San Antonio in 2013/14.

Now the Warriors did not take a top-heavy approach.  They do have two star players in Curry and Thompson, true.  But they also had a LOT of depth. If they lost their third best player (probably Green) then Lee and/or Bogut would have had more minutes, and they probably wouldn't lose that much.  If Thompson got hurt then Iggy and Barnes would have had more opportunities to make an impact.  The only guy who would have really crippled Golden State would be losing Curry probably - in this case you're only dependent on one guy, rather than Cleveland who are dependent on all three staying healthy.

Same with the San Antonio Spurs in 2013/14 - that team was all about depth and teamwork, and it was too much for Miami's top heavy approach to match because Miami just didn't have enough depth to match the Spur's balanced assault.  If San Antonio Lost any one of Parker, Duncan or Leonard, they probably still would have had a good chance.  Obviously if they lost two or more of those guys, they'd be toast. 

But that's the thing - no bench means you become dependent entirely on a three headed monster staying healthy.  If that happens and you get lucky, then you're in great shape. 

Hence why no have no intention of signing TT to such a contract.

Yet if they don't, they are likely to be even worse off than if they do...because without Thompson they are completely dependent on Kevin Love and Andersen Varejao both being healthy, and both being productive - and that's a big gamble given the history of both players.

Mosgov is more important to the Cavs than TT  due to his rim protection and offensive versatility. He will be re-signed.

IMHO they really need both.  Their PF spot is at too much risk without Thompson, and their Center spot is too thin without Mosgov. 

It's a "[dang]ed if you do, [dang]ed if you don't" situation.

Maybe they can sign both, but it will push them way, way into luxury tax for a long time.  Are they willing to do that?  Not sure, maybe.

Well hey if MJ got hurt it would have been all over. If Kobe got HUrt it would have been all over. If Bird got hurt, it would been all over. If Curry got hurt it would be all over. Turns out when teams lose by far their best player, chances of winning reduces significantly! Guess thats breaking news eh?

Difference is that those teams were mainly dependent on one guy, maybe two at most.  The Bulls were dependant on MJ, and maybe Pippen - that's two guys at the most.  Who was their third best player in the first three peat?  If they lost their third best player, they still have a strong shot at a title. 

Same with the Lakers.  Bynum was probably their third best player, but they managed to win anyway because even with Bynum mostly out, they still had Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Ariza, etc.

Cleveland might not be so lucky - if they lose their third best player (be that Kyrie or Love) then they can still make a deep playoff run (especially in the weak east) but their shot at a title is IMHO dramatically reduced.

Funny how Cavs were 6-4 vs all those teams over the season and 6-1 post mid season trades vs those same teams including embarrassing blowouts vs Memphis, Clippers and Warriors. But yh when fully healthy, those teams would magically beat the Cavs in the PO ::) ::)

That's when fully healthy...

My comment was a reference to the fact that people were impressed by Cleveland's ability to win a couple of games against the best team in the West despite being down 2/3 star players.

I'm saying that the feat isn't as impressive as it seems.  If Cleveland played any of the top 5 or 6 teams in the West without Love and Kyrie, then I strongly doubt they would have won.

Hence Cleveland's ability to make the finals despite their injuries is (IMO) more a reflection of how weak the East was, rather than a reflection of how strong Cleveland was.

Also everybody knows that the regular season and playoffs are two different beats.  The Celtics gave Miami major trouble in the regular season throughout the 'superfriend' years, but we were never able to beat them in a 7 game series.

Warriors never initially took Cavs seriously!!!Yup all Warriors had to do was radically change their whole starting line to beat a significantly decimated team!! I mean that starting line up had ran through the big bad West and put up historically RS numbers but they had to alter it completely to beat a decimated team. Def shows how much they didnt initially take Cavs seriously

Did you watch the first couple of games?

It was basically Stephen Curry running around jacking up horrible contested threes from 5 feet outside the three point line all night long, and then wondering why they were struggling.

It's a natural subconscious response for teams to not play as hard when you are up against a depleted (or weaker) team.  That's why the Celtics in the Big 3 era tended to struggle against bad teams, but they'd beat the good teams.  It's not because they consciously don't care, it's because subconsciously you feel like you have the advantage, and you can somewhat 'cruise'. 

That combined with the fact that the opponent usually has the opposite mentality - they know they are weakened, so their subconscious reaction is typically to play  twice as hard because you know you need to in order to have a fighting chance.

To me, from watching the games, it seemed pretty clear that Golden State thought they had this.  Consciously they knew they couldn't play soft, but subconsciously they were like "they are weak, We've got this".  They didn't expect Cleveland to fight the way they did, and they quickly got a rude shock.

That's how I saw it anyway - you don't need to agree, but that's my observation.

Anyways at the end of the day my point is this - the Cleveland has done nothing to improve this year, yet they have some question marks (will TT return, how productive will Love be?) and they are massively committed financially for years to come.

I feel like last year (after the trade) they had a good shot at a title, and they ran in to some bad luck. 

This year I think their chance of a title is reduced given that some WC teams (San Antonio, Houston and the Clippers for example) got much stronger combined with the fact that Cleveland themselves failed to make improvements. 

From 2016-17 on-wards their chance of a title could be under major threat, because we don't yet know if Tristan Thompson will still be there, and because so many teams will have cap space by that time...while the Cavs will really only be able to add players via min contracts, MLE and trades.  Plus the fact that Lebron and Love have already reached their ceilings, so Irving is really the only one on the team with much potential.

Of course they may well win multiple championships for all we know, but their future might actually not look as bright as many think.

But any team that loses their best player and/or 2nd best player to injury is going to hurt their championship chances.
At least they've got more than one All Star caliber player to fall back on in case one of them gets injured.
Teams without those stars won't win a championship anyway.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2015, 07:01:23 AM »

Offline chambers

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I wouldn't give Thompson a max at all.
Defense isn't that great.
Elite offensive rebounder.
Offense sucks.

Would rather have Amir Johnson.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2015, 08:25:10 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I wouldn't give Thompson a max at all.
Defense isn't that great.
Elite offensive rebounder.
Offense sucks.

Would rather have Amir Johnson.

So would Cavs..

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2015, 08:44:23 AM »

Offline Eja117

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What a diva wants

A diva gets




Remember WHO is running this show
Beware the snapped ACL

Re: Tristant Thompson - will not resign with Cavs for 16-17?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2015, 09:38:20 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Sully and KO have a knack for making other guys look more athletic than they are.   Taller, lengthy guys give them problems too, some knights.