Author Topic: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.  (Read 16446 times)

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Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2015, 06:34:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think they're . . . . looking to build something very strong and sustainable over the long term, even at the expense of immediate success and potentially experiencing short-term regressions . . . .  they're content with letting their young core continue to figure things out this next year, even if it means another non-playoff season.


This is a pretty good articulation of how I'd prefer to see the Celtics do things.

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Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2015, 08:27:05 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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So Zach Lowe said so, basically? That's not too bad, you could do way worse.

Interestingly, the only way you could say that Utah had the best defense in the league would be if you took opponents points per game as the only metric involved in it. The Jazz also played at the slowest pace in the league, which limits points on both sides of the board, but of course we won't mention that. The fact that they consistently stick to being a middling team that would rather fight for the playoffs than alienate their loyal mormons does not indicate 'trending up' in the slightest.

They're cut from the same cloth they've always been cut from -- they're going to hope that one of their draft picks hits and that they can pair him with a big who is passable as they scrape towards a seasonal record in the high forties. They'll cap out at, arguably, 50 wins in one season, and there will be much wailing when their new point guard of the future eventually bails. If that's 'competing', then sure.

Also, they have a very good coach? are you one of those people that was clamoring for Stevens to win COTY too?

Uh, no, not "cause Zach Lowe said so".  I was just using him as an example of a well-regarded media personality who agrees, the Jazz are ready to start competing.

And let me be clear, by competing I don't mean contend for a title. By "compete" I mean contend for a playoff spot in a brutal western conference. By compete, I mean allowing the young core they have already in place to improve to the point of a 7th or 8th seed. That doesn't in any way mean sacrificing long-term assets for short term improvements. That means allowing the guys they have to continue developing and only considering moves that can help in the short and long term.

I don't see how this is even debatable. They're not just "sticking to being a middling team", they have a very talented, improving core of young players who got considerably better as the season went along. Like us, they're now in a position where, if they don't plan on competing, they would have to take steps backwards on purpose (or get decimated by injury) to be in range for a top 10 pick. The fact they brought the whole team back is proof they plan on being more and more competitive as their young team grows. They're trending up because they have legit high-end young talent in Gobert, Hayward, Exum and Favors and showed the kind of elite defense you can build something with over a fairly decent sample size.

That defense, BTW, led the entire league in D-Rating after the ASG. Not just opposing PPG. And no, I didn't think Stevens deserved to win COY, but I thought he deserved some later votes. That he deserved to be in consideration. You don't have to have an incredible W-L record to do a great coaching job. What Stevens did with last years Celtics team was a prime example of someone doing a very good coaching job with a less than superior team. And yeah, Quin Snyder is a good coach. He has a great player development record including a large stint of time within the Spurs organization. He did a good job with that team last year. There has been a lot of very bad NBA head coaches, and Snyder did more with that team than a lot of other candidates would have. I didn't say he was great, I said he was good.

Frankly, your nearly constant condescending tone and your habit of questioning the validity of opinions that don't match yours takes away from the good things you contribute to the board.

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 11:22:34 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think people understand how badly Dante Exum played last season.  He was one of 12 players last year with 500+ minutes who posted negative VORP, BPM, and WS/48 last season.  The players who have done that twice in the last five seasons are trash like Michael Beasley, Ronnie Price, and Ish Smith.  Other hot garbage who have done that once include Jonny Flynn, both Pargo brothers, Anthony Bennett, and Austin Rivers.  The best players to have had a season that bad in recent years are probably Ben Gordon and Lance Stephenson.

Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I think trading for Exum should only be done if you are giving up value that treats him as the equivalent of Austin Rivers.  And what kind of idiot wants to trade for the next Austin Rivers?

I think you're a) ignoring the fact that he was nearly the youngest player in the NBA last year, and certainly the youngest to get major minutes, and b) ignoring the fact that the Jazz played very well when he was inserted into the starting lineup.  His defense was good due to his length and quickness.  He met most people's expectations last year, which is good for someone who was 19 the entire season.  The performers you're listing as negatives across the advanced stats were all significantly older, and generally not rookies.

Can people please (pretty please!!) stop pushing back on the age argument all the time? 

When you have proven yourself to be a good NBA player, then having youth on your side is a huge advantage - no question about that.

But when you're an NBA player who has yet to prove you're anything more than a 3rd string scrub, then you're a high risk and (ultimately) a huge gamble.  Being very young might potentially increase your ceiling (since you have more time to grow), but at the end of the day there is still no proof that you can actually do anything, and hence the risk of you becoming a bust is is pretty much still just as high.

So for a team in our position (where we want to start being competitive and winning games) why would we give up a guy who is a very productive NBA player (and still pretty young, to boot) in order to gamble on an unproven prospect with a season ending ACL injury? 

This is especially risky given the fact that all the hype around Exum was based on his perceived upside, which in turn was based almost entirely on his unique combination of size and athleticism at the guard spot.  I would definitely want to see him play again to see if there is a potential for long term affects of the injury, because if Exum loses even a small portion of that athleticism than much of his upside goes with it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:52:32 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2015, 11:31:38 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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I don't think people understand how badly Dante Exum played last season.  He was one of 12 players last year with 500+ minutes who posted negative VORP, BPM, and WS/48 last season.  The players who have done that twice in the last five seasons are trash like Michael Beasley, Ronnie Price, and Ish Smith.  Other hot garbage who have done that once include Jonny Flynn, both Pargo brothers, Anthony Bennett, and Austin Rivers.  The best players to have had a season that bad in recent years are probably Ben Gordon and Lance Stephenson.

Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I think trading for Exum should only be done if you are giving up value that treats him as the equivalent of Austin Rivers.  And what kind of idiot wants to trade for the next Austin Rivers?

I think you're a) ignoring the fact that he was nearly the youngest player in the NBA last year, and certainly the youngest to get major minutes, and b) ignoring the fact that the Jazz played very well when he was inserted into the starting lineup.  His defense was good due to his length and quickness.  He met most people's expectations last year, which is good for someone who was 19 the entire season.  The performers you're listing as negatives across the advanced stats were all significantly older, and generally not rookies.

Can people please (pretty please!!) stop pushing back on the age argument all the time? 

When you have proven yourself to be a good NBA player, then having youth on your side is a huge advantage - no question about that.

But when you're an NBA player who has yet to prove you're anything more than a 3rd string scrub, then you're a high risk and (ultimately) a huge gamble.  Being very young might potentially increase your ceiling (since you have more time to grow), but at the end of the day there is still no proof that you can actually do anything, and hence the risk of you becoming a bust is is pretty much still just as high.

So for a team in our position (where we want to start being competitive and winning games) why would we give up a guy who is a very productive NBA player (and still pretty young, to boot) in order to gamble on an unproven prospect with a season ending ACL injury? 

This is especially risky given the fact that all the hype around Exum was based on his perceived upside, which in turn was based almost entirely on his unique combination of size and athleticism at the guard spot.  I would definitely want to see him play again to see if there is a potential for long term affects of the injury, because if Exum loses even a small portion of that athleticism than much of his upside goes with it.

Besides I think Gobert had more to do with the Jazz's 2nd half success than Exum.

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2015, 12:40:32 AM »

Offline jdz101

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Exum is a classic tweener guard.

Not a good enough shooter or scorer to play the 2, doesn't handle the ball well enough or have enough speed to be an elite 1.

The fact he's now done his knee makes me even more 'meh' on him.

As for an Avery Bradley swap, I essentially believe Exum can/will be a new age Corey Brewer with better passing. If you think that's better than Avery Bradley, then go right ahead.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2015, 12:44:32 AM »

Offline jdz101

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I think they're . . . . looking to build something very strong and sustainable over the long term, even at the expense of immediate success and potentially experiencing short-term regressions . . . .  they're content with letting their young core continue to figure things out this next year, even if it means another non-playoff season.


This is a pretty good articulation of how I'd prefer to see the Celtics do things.

Ah well.

To be fair Celtics management tried like hell to make that the case with the early trades.

Their one mistake was hiring a very good coach with a phobia of losing, who just happens to have a penchant for making young basketballers work together pretty well.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2015, 01:24:54 AM »

Offline chambers

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I don't believe Utah is looking to win now at all and I echo D.o.s.' assertion that there's nothing you can really point to that would suggest as much. I think they're very much following the Bucks' trend of looking to build something very strong and sustainable over the long term, even at the expense of immediate success and potentially experiencing short-term regressions (see: Milwaukee having the balls to trade Knight and risk their playoff run last season).

The front office hasn't been aggressive at all about fortifying their team, so I'm very much so convinced they're content with letting their young core continue to figure things out this next year, even if it means another non-playoff season.

As much as I don't wanna contribute to another page in a thread titled 'Dante for Avery- easy yes from the Jazz right?', and can't believe we're almost at 5 pages for this, I'll say that I agree with you 100%.

As DOS says, the Jazz have shown ZERO interest in winning now over letting their young core develop naturally.
Now they might be at the point when they start adding pieces to get their young guys a sniff at the playoffs, but that probably isn't the best long term solution either considering how tough the West is right now.
I think 2-3 seasons from now we'll be talking about the Jazz making moves like this. (well not moves like this, because trading a top 5 lottery pick for a guy who wouldn't start on most NBA teams would be the dumbest thing they could possibly do.)

I'm chuckling that there are actually responses to this thread suggesting that they or Ainge would turn down a Bradley for Exum swap.
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Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2015, 08:35:59 AM »

Offline Adelaide Celt

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Exum is a classic tweener guard.

Not a good enough shooter or scorer to play the 2, doesn't handle the ball well enough or have enough speed to be an elite 1.

Remains to be seen how he'll be when he comes back from the knee reconstruction but one thing he's never lacked is speed.
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Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2015, 09:17:25 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Exum is a classic tweener guard.


In a thread comparing Exum to Avery Bradley, I'm not sure what this tells us.

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2015, 09:19:49 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I thought in summer league Exum looked better than Avery ever did. Exum has a very long way to go, but I think he's more likely to get there. We need all stars. Exum has a chance. Avery doesn't

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2015, 09:57:15 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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So Zach Lowe said so, basically? That's not too bad, you could do way worse.

Interestingly, the only way you could say that Utah had the best defense in the league would be if you took opponents points per game as the only metric involved in it. The Jazz also played at the slowest pace in the league, which limits points on both sides of the board, but of course we won't mention that. The fact that they consistently stick to being a middling team that would rather fight for the playoffs than alienate their loyal mormons does not indicate 'trending up' in the slightest.

They're cut from the same cloth they've always been cut from -- they're going to hope that one of their draft picks hits and that they can pair him with a big who is passable as they scrape towards a seasonal record in the high forties. They'll cap out at, arguably, 50 wins in one season, and there will be much wailing when their new point guard of the future eventually bails. If that's 'competing', then sure.

Also, they have a very good coach? are you one of those people that was clamoring for Stevens to win COTY too?

Uh, no, not "cause Zach Lowe said so".  I was just using him as an example of a well-regarded media personality who agrees, the Jazz are ready to start competing.

And let me be clear, by competing I don't mean contend for a title. By "compete" I mean contend for a playoff spot in a brutal western conference. By compete, I mean allowing the young core they have already in place to improve to the point of a 7th or 8th seed. That doesn't in any way mean sacrificing long-term assets for short term improvements. That means allowing the guys they have to continue developing and only considering moves that can help in the short and long term.

I don't see how this is even debatable. They're not just "sticking to being a middling team", they have a very talented, improving core of young players who got considerably better as the season went along. Like us, they're now in a position where, if they don't plan on competing, they would have to take steps backwards on purpose (or get decimated by injury) to be in range for a top 10 pick. The fact they brought the whole team back is proof they plan on being more and more competitive as their young team grows. They're trending up because they have legit high-end young talent in Gobert, Hayward, Exum and Favors and showed the kind of elite defense you can build something with over a fairly decent sample size.

That defense, BTW, led the entire league in D-Rating after the ASG. Not just opposing PPG. And no, I didn't think Stevens deserved to win COY, but I thought he deserved some later votes. That he deserved to be in consideration. You don't have to have an incredible W-L record to do a great coaching job. What Stevens did with last years Celtics team was a prime example of someone doing a very good coaching job with a less than superior team. And yeah, Quin Snyder is a good coach. He has a great player development record including a large stint of time within the Spurs organization. He did a good job with that team last year. There has been a lot of very bad NBA head coaches, and Snyder did more with that team than a lot of other candidates would have. I didn't say he was great, I said he was good.

Frankly, your nearly constant condescending tone and your habit of questioning the validity of opinions that don't match yours takes away from the good things you contribute to the board.

Curious as to why aren't you critiquing the other posters who are disagreeing with your assessment? Because, you know, there's a possibility we're questioning the validity of your statements on the basis of their, well, validity. In fact, I would wager that pretty much every single conversation on CB is powered by at least two posters questioning the validity of opinions that don't match their own -- that's the root of disagreement. That's where the discussion comes from. Do you disagree?

Anyway, I am still waiting for someone to provide the numbers for DRtg after the All Star Break. You've said it twice now, but I have yet to see any data?
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Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2015, 10:01:49 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I thought in summer league Exum looked better than Avery ever did. Exum has a very long way to go, but I think he's more likely to get there. We need all stars. Exum has a chance. Avery doesn't
very true.  also, Exum has a chance to be a bust.  Avery doesn't.

I thought Exum looked better in the little exposure he had in summer league but have to take it with a grain of salt because, after all, it is just summer league

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2015, 10:18:45 AM »

Offline GC003332

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So Zach Lowe said so, basically? That's not too bad, you could do way worse.

Interestingly, the only way you could say that Utah had the best defense in the league would be if you took opponents points per game as the only metric involved in it. The Jazz also played at the slowest pace in the league, which limits points on both sides of the board, but of course we won't mention that. The fact that they consistently stick to being a middling team that would rather fight for the playoffs than alienate their loyal mormons does not indicate 'trending up' in the slightest.

They're cut from the same cloth they've always been cut from -- they're going to hope that one of their draft picks hits and that they can pair him with a big who is passable as they scrape towards a seasonal record in the high forties. They'll cap out at, arguably, 50 wins in one season, and there will be much wailing when their new point guard of the future eventually bails. If that's 'competing', then sure.

Also, they have a very good coach? are you one of those people that was clamoring for Stevens to win COTY too?

Uh, no, not "cause Zach Lowe said so".  I was just using him as an example of a well-regarded media personality who agrees, the Jazz are ready to start competing.

And let me be clear, by competing I don't mean contend for a title. By "compete" I mean contend for a playoff spot in a brutal western conference. By compete, I mean allowing the young core they have already in place to improve to the point of a 7th or 8th seed. That doesn't in any way mean sacrificing long-term assets for short term improvements. That means allowing the guys they have to continue developing and only considering moves that can help in the short and long term.

I don't see how this is even debatable. They're not just "sticking to being a middling team", they have a very talented, improving core of young players who got considerably better as the season went along. Like us, they're now in a position where, if they don't plan on competing, they would have to take steps backwards on purpose (or get decimated by injury) to be in range for a top 10 pick. The fact they brought the whole team back is proof they plan on being more and more competitive as their young team grows. They're trending up because they have legit high-end young talent in Gobert, Hayward, Exum and Favors and showed the kind of elite defense you can build something with over a fairly decent sample size.

That defense, BTW, led the entire league in D-Rating after the ASG. Not just opposing PPG. And no, I didn't think Stevens deserved to win COY, but I thought he deserved some later votes. That he deserved to be in consideration. You don't have to have an incredible W-L record to do a great coaching job. What Stevens did with last years Celtics team was a prime example of someone doing a very good coaching job with a less than superior team. And yeah, Quin Snyder is a good coach. He has a great player development record including a large stint of time within the Spurs organization. He did a good job with that team last year. There has been a lot of very bad NBA head coaches, and Snyder did more with that team than a lot of other candidates would have. I didn't say he was great, I said he was good.

Frankly, your nearly constant condescending tone and your habit of questioning the validity of opinions that don't match yours takes away from the good things you contribute to the board.

Curious as to why aren't you critiquing the other posters who are disagreeing with your assessment? Because, you know, there's a possibility we're questioning the validity of your statements on the basis of their, well, validity. In fact, I would wager that pretty much every single conversation on CB is powered by at least two posters questioning the validity of opinions that don't match their own -- that's the root of disagreement. That's where the discussion comes from. Do you disagree?

Anyway, I am still waiting for someone to provide the numbers for DRtg after the All Star Break. You've said it twice now, but I have yet to see any data?
I provided a link to the numbers you are after , it is on page 3 of this thread ;)

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2015, 10:29:22 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I thought Dante Exum was absurdly overhyped going into the 2014 draft.  His rookie season sure didn't do anything to dispel that notion.

He could still turn into a decent NBA player, but "the next Penny Hardaway"?

Not so likely. 



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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
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C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Avery Bradley for Dante Exum straight up.
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2015, 11:39:25 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I thought Dante Exum was absurdly overhyped going into the 2014 draft.  His rookie season sure didn't do anything to dispel that notion.

He could still turn into a decent NBA player, but "the next Penny Hardaway"?

Not so likely.


Unfortunately the knee injury actually makes the comparison more close.