Author Topic: Matt Moore on Rebuilding  (Read 10024 times)

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Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« on: August 03, 2015, 03:30:51 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Here's the problem, in two parts. First, riddle me this: Who is the Celtics' best player? Who are the Celtics' best three players?

. . . .

Second, the Celtics are proof that good assets don't always become gold.

. . . .

Big picture, if you look at the amount of assets Ainge had on January 1st, and you look at the roster itself on July 30th, your head tilts a little bit. The Celtics' rebuild isn't going badly by any means. They have a playoff team with good players, tradeable assets, upside and future picks. It's just not the kind of monster you expected after all of Ainge's dealings.


Moore notes at the end of the piece that this is an important year for the Sixers, Celts, and Magic.  All three teams could find in a year or two that they've made little progress toward building a contender and have to basically start over again.  On the other hand, they could each see a lot of things go right and quickly find themselves with a very good team.

Personally, I'd guess that at least one team of the three will experience the former and one will experience the latter.  I only hope it's the Celts finding they're on a path to competing.

Moore makes a Camby comp with Nerlens Noel.  Interesting name to bring up.  Not sure Noel will ever be that kind of rebounder, but if Noel can be that sort of defender he could have a long career and be very valuable.

I'm really starting to think Noel is the most plausible target for the Celts.  He's young, fills a major need (no offense, Amir), and it just doesn't seem likely that Philly can keep him long term, unless Okafor is a bust or one of the two suddenly develops a killer jumper.
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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 03:46:50 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Quote
Here's the problem, in two parts. First, riddle me this: Who is the Celtics' best player? Who are the Celtics' best three players?

. . . .

Second, the Celtics are proof that good assets don't always become gold.

. . . .

Big picture, if you look at the amount of assets Ainge had on January 1st, and you look at the roster itself on July 30th, your head tilts a little bit. The Celtics' rebuild isn't going badly by any means. They have a playoff team with good players, tradeable assets, upside and future picks. It's just not the kind of monster you expected after all of Ainge's dealings.


Moore notes at the end of the piece that this is an important year for the Sixers, Celts, and Magic.  All three teams could find in a year or two that they've made little progress toward building a contender and have to basically start over again.  On the other hand, they could each see a lot of things go right and quickly find themselves with a very good team.

Personally, I'd guess that at least one team of the three will experience the former and one will experience the latter.  I only hope it's the Celts finding they're on a path to competing.

Moore makes a Camby comp with Nerlens Noel.  Interesting name to bring up.  Not sure Noel will ever be that kind of rebounder, but if Noel can be that sort of defender he could have a long career and be very valuable.

I'm really starting to think Noel is the most plausible target for the Celts.  He's young, fills a major need (no offense, Amir), and it just doesn't seem likely that Philly can keep him long term, unless Okafor is a bust or one of the two suddenly develops a killer jumper.
I agree it's an important year for those 3 teams. I think all 3 teams needs a star to emerge. All 3 have great assets to trade if a star became available but if they don't start winning players won't want to be traded there.

I think it is less important for the Sixers, because I think they have one more year of tanking before legitimately trying to get better.

For the C's we need to make ourselves a draw for a disgruntled players in trades or free agents.
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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 03:49:39 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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Quote
Here's the problem, in two parts. First, riddle me this: Who is the Celtics' best player? Who are the Celtics' best three players?

. . . .

Second, the Celtics are proof that good assets don't always become gold.

. . . .

Big picture, if you look at the amount of assets Ainge had on January 1st, and you look at the roster itself on July 30th, your head tilts a little bit. The Celtics' rebuild isn't going badly by any means. They have a playoff team with good players, tradeable assets, upside and future picks. It's just not the kind of monster you expected after all of Ainge's dealings.


Moore notes at the end of the piece that this is an important year for the Sixers, Celts, and Magic.  All three teams could find in a year or two that they've made little progress toward building a contender and have to basically start over again.  On the other hand, they could each see a lot of things go right and quickly find themselves with a very good team.

Personally, I'd guess that at least one team of the three will experience the former and one will experience the latter.  I only hope it's the Celts finding they're on a path to competing.

Moore makes a Camby comp with Nerlens Noel.  Interesting name to bring up.  Not sure Noel will ever be that kind of rebounder, but if Noel can be that sort of defender he could have a long career and be very valuable.

I'm really starting to think Noel is the most plausible target for the Celts.  He's young, fills a major need (no offense, Amir), and it just doesn't seem likely that Philly can keep him long term, unless Okafor is a bust or one of the two suddenly develops a killer jumper.

In similar manner to Forrest Gump's "Stupid is as stupid does," I would tell Moore, "Impatience is as impatience does." There was no monster in 2007 ... until there was. Time will tell what kind of monster Danny "Frankenstein" Ainge has cookin' in his lab.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 04:01:25 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I'm really starting to think Noel is the most plausible target for the Celts.  He's young, fills a major need (no offense, Amir), and it just doesn't seem likely that Philly can keep him long term, unless Okafor is a bust or one of the two suddenly develops a killer jumper.

Yeah but he won't get traded to us until it's nicknagata's birthday.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 04:22:20 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Quote
Here's the problem, in two parts. First, riddle me this: Who is the Celtics' best player? Who are the Celtics' best three players?

. . . .

Second, the Celtics are proof that good assets don't always become gold.

. . . .

Big picture, if you look at the amount of assets Ainge had on January 1st, and you look at the roster itself on July 30th, your head tilts a little bit. The Celtics' rebuild isn't going badly by any means. They have a playoff team with good players, tradeable assets, upside and future picks. It's just not the kind of monster you expected after all of Ainge's dealings.


Moore notes at the end of the piece that this is an important year for the Sixers, Celts, and Magic.  All three teams could find in a year or two that they've made little progress toward building a contender and have to basically start over again.  On the other hand, they could each see a lot of things go right and quickly find themselves with a very good team.

Personally, I'd guess that at least one team of the three will experience the former and one will experience the latter.  I only hope it's the Celts finding they're on a path to competing.

Moore makes a Camby comp with Nerlens Noel.  Interesting name to bring up.  Not sure Noel will ever be that kind of rebounder, but if Noel can be that sort of defender he could have a long career and be very valuable.

I'm really starting to think Noel is the most plausible target for the Celts.  He's young, fills a major need (no offense, Amir), and it just doesn't seem likely that Philly can keep him long term, unless Okafor is a bust or one of the two suddenly develops a killer jumper.

Don't forget the fact that he was a Massachussettes native, too. I'm pretty sure he's always maintained that he would love to play in Boston.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 01:35:36 AM »

Offline redrobot

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Second, the Celtics are proof that good assets don't always become gold. 


Moore notes at the end of the piece that this is an important year for the Sixers, Celts, and Magic.  All three teams could find in a year or two that they've made little progress toward building a contender and have to basically start over again.  On the other hand, they could each see a lot of things go right and quickly find themselves with a very good team.


They haven't gotten to the actual good assets yet. We're just now peering onto the threshold of the Brooklyn pick bounty - the other stuff (Clippers first & Philly second rounder) was low value. Not worth much in trades at all, but Ainge & the front office managed to bring back some truly decent prospects in Hunter & Mickey.

Those Nets picks will prove to be the difference in our rebuild - either by trading them off or drafting someone, those picks are why the team is set up the way it is now. Boston has the perfect roster of solid role players and a great coach & system to accommodate the dominate scorer they have been searching for.

It's a bit of a backwards rebuild if you look at it from that article's point of view, but in reality, the star is the most difficult piece to land. And if you spend all your time trying to maximize your potential of landing that star through the draft (i.e. tanking) - you run the risk of being so terrible that even if you do land that star, he's going to bounce his first chance.

Orlando has mired in the lottery for years. They should be trying to break out of it at all costs. How many times have they won the lottery? How has it worked out for them? Did Shaq bring them a banner? Did Penny? Dwight? Do you think Oladipo will? Best of luck!

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 01:38:45 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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So I was just going through this article again, and there's quite a bit I disagree with in it. For one, this guy seems to be really drinking the Orlando juice here. He states: "The Magic suffer from the same problem as the Celtics in that you don't know who their best player is. The difference is that if Isaiah Thomas is the Celtics' best player in two years, they're in major trouble. If Victor Oladipo, Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Tobias Harris, Hezonja, or Nikola Vucevic is the Magic's best player in two years, it means they made the leap. The Celtics have guys who could make that jump (Smart in particular, but also Sullinger, Olynyk or Crowder), it's just not the same level. That's to be expected, those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were."

Sure, I agree that IT should NOT be our best player in two years, nor do I think he WILL be our best player in two years. But does anyone really think that Oladipo, Payton, Gordon, Harris, Hezonja, or Vucevic have higher ceilings than Smart does?

I think all of them are going to be nice, similarly skilled players. To me, they all have ceilings of an All-Star, maybe even multiple-time All-Stars. Hell, I'd put Sully's ceiling and potential in this same group, though I don't think KO or Crowder are in this conversation.

So I can understand the guy saying they have more chances at having a guy make the leap, which is understandable due to them having more guys capable of that from rebuilding longer. However, it's very short-sighted and wrong to say that the C's don't have a guy to "make that jump at that level" which is "to be expected,[since] those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were" when Smart was picked 6th before Harris (19), Vucevic (16), and Payton (10) and in a comparable position to Gordon (4), Hezonja (5), and Oladipo (2 in a horrible draft class).

And as redrobot said above, we're just now getting to our major haul of picks in our rebuilding process. IIRC, we've only used two of our gained picks from the rebuild so far (IT trade and James Young pick). From next summer on we will really start reaping the benefits of our rebuild, and in my opinion the Brooklyn picks (2016 one for sure) are very similar in value to the Lakers pick of the Sixers.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 01:41:11 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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So I was just going through this article again, and there's quite a bit I disagree with in it. For one, this guy seems to be really drinking the Orlando juice here. He states: "The Magic suffer from the same problem as the Celtics in that you don't know who their best player is. The difference is that if Isaiah Thomas is the Celtics' best player in two years, they're in major trouble. If Victor Oladipo, Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Tobias Harris, Hezonja, or Nikola Vucevic is the Magic's best player in two years, it means they made the leap. The Celtics have guys who could make that jump (Smart in particular, but also Sullinger, Olynyk or Crowder), it's just not the same level. That's to be expected, those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were."

Sure, I agree that IT should NOT be our best player in two years, nor do I think he WILL be our best player in two years. But does anyone really think that Oladipo, Payton, Gordon, Harris, Hezonja, or Vucevic have higher ceilings than Smart does?

I think all of them are going to be nice, similarly skilled players. To me, they all have ceilings of an All-Star, maybe even multiple-time All-Stars. Hell, I'd put Sully's ceiling and potential in this same group, though I don't think KO or Crowder are in this conversation.

So I can understand the guy saying they have more chances at having a guy make the leap, which is understandable due to them having more guys capable of that from rebuilding longer. However, it's very short-sighted and wrong to say that the C's don't have a guy to "make that jump at that level" which is "to be expected,[since] those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were" when Smart was picked 6th before Harris (19), Vucevic (16), and Payton (10) and in a comparable position to Gordon (4), Hezonja (5), and Oladipo (2 in a horrible draft class).

Nikola Vucevic is a beast and a lot of scouts believe Hezonja has a high ceiling although I'm not sold on that. If Smart could get to Vucevic's level that would be great for Boston.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 01:43:21 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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So I was just going through this article again, and there's quite a bit I disagree with in it. For one, this guy seems to be really drinking the Orlando juice here. He states: "The Magic suffer from the same problem as the Celtics in that you don't know who their best player is. The difference is that if Isaiah Thomas is the Celtics' best player in two years, they're in major trouble. If Victor Oladipo, Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Tobias Harris, Hezonja, or Nikola Vucevic is the Magic's best player in two years, it means they made the leap. The Celtics have guys who could make that jump (Smart in particular, but also Sullinger, Olynyk or Crowder), it's just not the same level. That's to be expected, those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were."

Sure, I agree that IT should NOT be our best player in two years, nor do I think he WILL be our best player in two years. But does anyone really think that Oladipo, Payton, Gordon, Harris, Hezonja, or Vucevic have higher ceilings than Smart does?

I think all of them are going to be nice, similarly skilled players. To me, they all have ceilings of an All-Star, maybe even multiple-time All-Stars. Hell, I'd put Sully's ceiling and potential in this same group, though I don't think KO or Crowder are in this conversation.

So I can understand the guy saying they have more chances at having a guy make the leap, which is understandable due to them having more guys capable of that from rebuilding longer. However, it's very short-sighted and wrong to say that the C's don't have a guy to "make that jump at that level" which is "to be expected,[since] those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were" when Smart was picked 6th before Harris (19), Vucevic (16), and Payton (10) and in a comparable position to Gordon (4), Hezonja (5), and Oladipo (2 in a horrible draft class).

Nikola Vucevic is a beast and a lot of scouts believe Hezonja has a high ceiling although I'm not sold on that. If Smart could get to Vucevic's level that would be great for Boston.

The thing is Vucevic is so one-sided that it really hurts the team. Doesn't he always give up like ridiculous numbers to opposing centers? Vucevic is good, but I'd like Smart to be more of a two-way player than that.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 01:44:54 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Orlando has mired in the lottery for years. They should be trying to break out of it at all costs. How many times have they won the lottery? How has it worked out for them? Did Shaq bring them a banner? Did Penny? Dwight? Do you think Oladipo will? Best of luck!

Orlando got two Finals appearances and a great many wins from Shaq and Dwight.  I doubt they really regret losing the games necessary to draft them.

I'd say the fact that you weren't able to win a title with the two historically dominant big men you drafted at the top of the lottery is not a good reason to avoid trying to get another star in the lottery.

All in all, I'd say the Magic are doing a pretty good job with their rebuild so far.  They've assembled some nice talent.  They've spent enough time in the lottery since Dwight left, though, and now they need to see what they can make of the players they've assembled.


I wish the Celtics would actually spend some time assembling players in that manner before trying to move on to the next step, but they've got a different plan in mind.



Also, to jpotter I'd say that Gordon, Oladipo, Hezonja, Vucevic, and Harris definitely have higher ceilings than Smart.  That's my opinion.  Peyton maybe, maybe not.  I'm not as sold on him as others.  Having a higher ceiling doesn't mean when all is said and done that Smart won't be better than all of them. 

Nonetheless, the Magic have a nice crop of young players with All-Star potential, though I don't see any of them as a future superstar.

The issue for the Celtics isn't that Smart is a lesser prospect than those guys.  It's that the Magic have a whole lineup of players like that, while the Celtics have one.
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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 01:53:34 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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So I was just going through this article again, and there's quite a bit I disagree with in it. For one, this guy seems to be really drinking the Orlando juice here. He states: "The Magic suffer from the same problem as the Celtics in that you don't know who their best player is. The difference is that if Isaiah Thomas is the Celtics' best player in two years, they're in major trouble. If Victor Oladipo, Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Tobias Harris, Hezonja, or Nikola Vucevic is the Magic's best player in two years, it means they made the leap. The Celtics have guys who could make that jump (Smart in particular, but also Sullinger, Olynyk or Crowder), it's just not the same level. That's to be expected, those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were."

Sure, I agree that IT should NOT be our best player in two years, nor do I think he WILL be our best player in two years. But does anyone really think that Oladipo, Payton, Gordon, Harris, Hezonja, or Vucevic have higher ceilings than Smart does?

I think all of them are going to be nice, similarly skilled players. To me, they all have ceilings of an All-Star, maybe even multiple-time All-Stars. Hell, I'd put Sully's ceiling and potential in this same group, though I don't think KO or Crowder are in this conversation.

So I can understand the guy saying they have more chances at having a guy make the leap, which is understandable due to them having more guys capable of that from rebuilding longer. However, it's very short-sighted and wrong to say that the C's don't have a guy to "make that jump at that level" which is "to be expected,[since] those players weren't drafted as high as Orlando's were" when Smart was picked 6th before Harris (19), Vucevic (16), and Payton (10) and in a comparable position to Gordon (4), Hezonja (5), and Oladipo (2 in a horrible draft class).

Nikola Vucevic is a beast and a lot of scouts believe Hezonja has a high ceiling although I'm not sold on that. If Smart could get to Vucevic's level that would be great for Boston.

The thing is Vucevic is so one-sided that it really hurts the team. Doesn't he always give up like ridiculous numbers to opposing centers? Vucevic is good, but I'd like Smart to be more of a two-way player than that.

Vucevic is more offensive minded much like Smart is more defensive minded. Both need to solidify other aspects of their games, but both players are very promising young players.

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 01:57:22 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I'd certainly trade our roster for the Magic's, but I guess the idea is that we have the draft picks and flexibility to either: a. rebuild faster than them by trading for a superstar; or b. worst case scenario, just draft players and end up where they are in a couple years.


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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 03:28:21 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Putting aside floors or ceilings for a minute, I wanted to throw the following out there:

In a seven game right now, who do you like?:

Elfrid Payton
Victor Oladipo
Tobias Harris
Aaron Gordon
Nikola Vucevic

vs.

Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
Jae Crowder
Jared Sullinger
Kelly Olynyk
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 03:35:01 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Putting aside floors or ceilings for a minute, I wanted to throw the following out there:

In a seven game right now, who do you like?:

Elfrid Payton
Victor Oladipo
Tobias Harris
Aaron Gordon
Nikola Vucevic

vs.

Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
Jae Crowder
Jared Sullinger
Kelly Olynyk
Do those have to be our starters? I'd still take our guys because of defense and floor spacing, but a couple years down the road it will probably be a different story.
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Re: Matt Moore on Rebuilding
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 03:37:53 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Orlando has mired in the lottery for years. They should be trying to break out of it at all costs. How many times have they won the lottery? How has it worked out for them? Did Shaq bring them a banner? Did Penny? Dwight? Do you think Oladipo will? Best of luck!

Orlando got two Finals appearances and a great many wins from Shaq and Dwight.  I doubt they really regret losing the games necessary to draft them.

I'd say the fact that you weren't able to win a title with the two historically dominant big men you drafted at the top of the lottery is not a good reason to avoid trying to get another star in the lottery.

All in all, I'd say the Magic are doing a pretty good job with their rebuild so far.  They've assembled some nice talent.  They've spent enough time in the lottery since Dwight left, though, and now they need to see what they can make of the players they've assembled.


I wish the Celtics would actually spend some time assembling players in that manner before trying to move on to the next step, but they've got a different plan in mind.



Also, to jpotter I'd say that Gordon, Oladipo, Hezonja, Vucevic, and Harris definitely have higher ceilings than Smart.  That's my opinion.  Peyton maybe, maybe not.  I'm not as sold on him as others.  Having a higher ceiling doesn't mean when all is said and done that Smart won't be better than all of them. 

Nonetheless, the Magic have a nice crop of young players with All-Star potential, though I don't see any of them as a future superstar.

The issue for the Celtics isn't that Smart is a lesser prospect than those guys.  It's that the Magic have a whole lineup of players like that, while the Celtics have one.

None of the Magic players scream bonofide All star to me.