Very strong statement by DA on CBS

[Beat LA]

OK we went down that path.

Resistance is futile

1.Stockton/Magic
2.MJ/Kobe
3.Larry/Lebron
4.Malone/Barkley (you could fit Timmy here)
5.Russell/Kareem/Wilt - I really cannot decide.

If we are talking of top 10 irrespective of position, Timmy's case gets even harder:

Russell, Kareem, Wilt,  Lebron: all these four are in for sure, and so is Lebron, MJ and Kobe.

So we are left with three players. You think he is better than Magic, Larry,  Barkley, Stockton? All of them IMO make a better case, and I have said nothing of Cousy and Dr J.

Again, my point is not to say that Timmy could not make it in there - you can always say he is more valuable than Stockton or Barkley, but that a top 10 without Timmy is not outrageous.

A top ten without Russell, Wilt or MJ yes, that would be a joke. But Timmy is not in that category.

Anyway, this is the definition of a food fight since comparing players from different eras is apples and oranges. Basketball was a different sport in the 50s and players today have all kinds of support today that was unavailable back then. Not to mention that the incentives are very different (players in the 50s and 60s got little money, they even had summer jobs) which means that today the pool of talent is much bigger because you have a lot more people who find bball as a professional choice attractive.

As I haven't read through the thread, how did we get here, and where is Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and Julius Erving, etc.?  I also think that Zeke was better than Stockton, and while everyone tends to just give the title of 'best point guard ever' to Magic, where does Cousy fit in here, and Tiny Archibald, etc.?  There's a reason why college basketball's best point guard is the recipient of the Bob Cousy Award, not the Magic Johnson one.

Otherwise you are right, my list is very heavily skewed in favour of players from the nineties.

Not a Dr. J fan?  I know it's celticsblog, but give the man his due.  He revolutionized the game.  Without him and David Thompson, etc., there is no Jordan.

Edit - how could I forget Hakeem, smh!?  Wow . *facepalm* I know that Shaq belongs there as well, but he's after the other four, imo.

[BballTim]

  There's a reason why college basketball's best point guard is the recipient of the Bob Cousy Award, not the Magic Johnson one.

  College football's best receiver gets the Fred Belitnekoff award. As big of a fan of his as I was, I don't think that means he's the best receiver of all time.

[BballTim]

OK we went down that path.

Resistance is futile

1.Stockton/Magic
2.MJ/Kobe
3.Larry/Lebron
4.Malone/Barkley (you could fit Timmy here)
5.Russell/Kareem/Wilt - I really cannot decide.

If we are talking of top 10 irrespective of position, Timmy's case gets even harder:

Russell, Kareem, Wilt,  Lebron: all these four are in for sure, and so is Lebron, MJ and Kobe.

So we are left with three players. You think he is better than Magic, Larry,  Barkley, Stockton? All of them IMO make a better case, and I have said nothing of Cousy and Dr J.

Again, my point is not to say that Timmy could not make it in there - you can always say he is more valuable than Stockton or Barkley, but that a top 10 without Timmy is not outrageous.

A top ten without Russell, Wilt or MJ yes, that would be a joke. But Timmy is not in that category.

Anyway, this is the definition of a food fight since comparing players from different eras is apples and oranges. Basketball was a different sport in the 50s and players today have all kinds of support today that was unavailable back then. Not to mention that the incentives are very different (players in the 50s and 60s got little money, they even had summer jobs) which means that today the pool of talent is much bigger because you have a lot more people who find bball as a professional choice attractive.

As I haven't read through the thread, how did we get here, and where is Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and Julius Erving, etc.?  I also think that Zeke was better than Stockton, and while everyone tends to just give the title of 'best point guard ever' to Magic, where does Cousy fit in here, and Tiny Archibald, etc.?  There's a reason why college basketball's best point guard is the recipient of the Bob Cousy Award, not the Magic Johnson one.

  btw, I'll join you in the "Zeke was better than Stockton" camp.

[EDWARDO]

OK we went down that path.

Resistance is futile

1.Stockton/Magic
2.MJ/Kobe
3.Larry/Lebron
4.Malone/Barkley (you could fit Timmy here)
5.Russell/Kareem/Wilt - I really cannot decide.

If we are talking of top 10 irrespective of position, Timmy's case gets even harder:

Russell, Kareem, Wilt,  Lebron: all these four are in for sure, and so is Lebron, MJ and Kobe.

So we are left with three players. You think he is better than Magic, Larry,  Barkley, Stockton? All of them IMO make a better case, and I have said nothing of Cousy and Dr J.

Again, my point is not to say that Timmy could not make it in there - you can always say he is more valuable than Stockton or Barkley, but that a top 10 without Timmy is not outrageous.

A top ten without Russell, Wilt or MJ yes, that would be a joke. But Timmy is not in that category.

Anyway, this is the definition of a food fight since comparing players from different eras is apples and oranges. Basketball was a different sport in the 50s and players today have all kinds of support today that was unavailable back then. Not to mention that the incentives are very different (players in the 50s and 60s got little money, they even had summer jobs) which means that today the pool of talent is much bigger because you have a lot more people who find bball as a professional choice attractive.

Wow, you would put Stockton, Barkley and Malone ahead of Duncan? So the Jazz had TWO of the top 10 players of all time on their team in their primes at the same time and only made the finals twice (in a weak Western Conference) and never won? I put Duncan ahead of Kobe as well, who won 3 titles as Shaq's caddy early in his career. The only guys in the conversation with Duncan on this list are the 3 centers, Magic, MJ, Larry and Lebron. Can argue Kobe in there as well, but I would definitely have Duncan ahead of Kobe.... the other guys are NO WHERE near Duncan.

this list from the Simmons book seems about right, but not sure when this list was last modified... Duncan and Lebron only going higher on this list...

1   Michael Jordan   1985   2003   1072   38.3   30.1   6.2   5.3   2.3   0.8   .497   .327   .835   214.0   .250
2   Bill Russell   1957   1969   963   42.3   15.1   22.5   4.3         .440      .561   163.5   .193
3   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   1970   1989   1560   36.8   24.6   11.2   3.6   0.9   2.6   .559   .056   .721   273.4   .228
4   Magic Johnson   1980   1996   906   36.7   19.5   7.2   11.2   1.9   0.4   .520   .303   .848   155.8   .225
5   Larry Bird   1980   1992   897   38.4   24.3   10.0   6.3   1.7   0.8   .496   .376   .886   145.8   .203
6   Wilt Chamberlain   1960   1973   1045   45.8   30.1   22.9   4.4         .540      .511   247.3   .248
7   Tim Duncan   1998   2015   1331   34.4   19.5   11.0   3.1   0.7   2.2   .506   .181   .696   201.2   .211
8   Kobe Bryant   1997   2015   1280   36.5   25.4   5.3   4.8   1.5   0.5   .451   .334   .837   173.1   .178
9   Jerry West   1961   1974   932   39.2   27.0   5.8   6.7   2.6   0.7   .474      .814   162.6   .213
10   Oscar Robertson   1961   1974   1040   42.2   25.7   7.5   9.5   1.1   0.1   .485      .838   189.2   .207
11   Hakeem Olajuwon   1985   2002   1238   35.7   21.8   11.1   2.5   1.7   3.1   .512   .202   .712   162.8   .177
12   Shaquille O'Neal   1993   2011   1207   34.7   23.7   10.9   2.5   0.6   2.3   .582   .045   .527   181.7   .208
13   Moses Malone   1977   1995   1329   33.9   20.6   12.2   1.4   0.8   1.3   .491   .100   .769   167.1   .178
14   John Havlicek   1963   1978   1270   36.6   20.8   6.3   4.8   1.2   0.3   .439      .815   131.7   .136
15   Elgin Baylor   1959   1972   846   40.0   27.4   13.5   4.3         .431      .780   104.2   .148
16   Julius Erving   1977   1987   836   34.3   22.0   6.7   3.9   1.8   1.5   .507   .261   .777   106.2   .178
17   Bob Pettit   1955   1965   792   38.8   26.4   16.2   3.0         .436      .761   136.0   .213
18   Karl Malone   1986   2004   1476   37.2   25.0   10.1   3.6   1.4   0.8   .516   .274   .742   234.6   .205
19   Charles Barkley   1985   2000   1073   36.7   22.1   11.7   3.9   1.5   0.8   .541   .266   .735   177.2   .216
20   LeBron James   2004   2015   911   39.3   27.3   7.1   6.9   1.7   0.8   .496   .342   .745   178.9   .240

[greece66]

OK we went down that path.

Resistance is futile

1.Stockton/Magic
2.MJ/Kobe
3.Larry/Lebron
4.Malone/Barkley (you could fit Timmy here)
5.Russell/Kareem/Wilt - I really cannot decide.

If we are talking of top 10 irrespective of position, Timmy's case gets even harder:

Russell, Kareem, Wilt,  Lebron: all these four are in for sure, and so is Lebron, MJ and Kobe.

So we are left with three players. You think he is better than Magic, Larry,  Barkley, Stockton? All of them IMO make a better case, and I have said nothing of Cousy and Dr J.

Again, my point is not to say that Timmy could not make it in there - you can always say he is more valuable than Stockton or Barkley, but that a top 10 without Timmy is not outrageous.

A top ten without Russell, Wilt or MJ yes, that would be a joke. But Timmy is not in that category.

Anyway, this is the definition of a food fight since comparing players from different eras is apples and oranges. Basketball was a different sport in the 50s and players today have all kinds of support today that was unavailable back then. Not to mention that the incentives are very different (players in the 50s and 60s got little money, they even had summer jobs) which means that today the pool of talent is much bigger because you have a lot more people who find bball as a professional choice attractive.

Wow, you would put Stockton, Barkley and Malone ahead of Duncan? So the Jazz had TWO of the top 10 players of all time on their team in their primes at the same time and only made the finals twice (in a weak Western Conference) and never won? I put Duncan ahead of Kobe as well, who won 3 titles as Shaq's caddy early in his career. The only guys in the conversation with Duncan on this list are the 3 centers, Magic, MJ, Larry and Lebron. Can argue Kobe in there as well, but I would definitely have Duncan ahead of Kobe.... the other guys are NO WHERE near Duncan.

this list from the Simmons book seems about right, but not sure when this list was last modified... Duncan and Lebron only going higher on this list...

1   Michael Jordan   1985   2003   1072   38.3   30.1   6.2   5.3   2.3   0.8   .497   .327   .835   214.0   .250
2   Bill Russell   1957   1969   963   42.3   15.1   22.5   4.3         .440      .561   163.5   .193
3   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   1970   1989   1560   36.8   24.6   11.2   3.6   0.9   2.6   .559   .056   .721   273.4   .228
4   Magic Johnson   1980   1996   906   36.7   19.5   7.2   11.2   1.9   0.4   .520   .303   .848   155.8   .225
5   Larry Bird   1980   1992   897   38.4   24.3   10.0   6.3   1.7   0.8   .496   .376   .886   145.8   .203
6   Wilt Chamberlain   1960   1973   1045   45.8   30.1   22.9   4.4         .540      .511   247.3   .248
7   Tim Duncan   1998   2015   1331   34.4   19.5   11.0   3.1   0.7   2.2   .506   .181   .696   201.2   .211
8   Kobe Bryant   1997   2015   1280   36.5   25.4   5.3   4.8   1.5   0.5   .451   .334   .837   173.1   .178
9   Jerry West   1961   1974   932   39.2   27.0   5.8   6.7   2.6   0.7   .474      .814   162.6   .213
10   Oscar Robertson   1961   1974   1040   42.2   25.7   7.5   9.5   1.1   0.1   .485      .838   189.2   .207
11   Hakeem Olajuwon   1985   2002   1238   35.7   21.8   11.1   2.5   1.7   3.1   .512   .202   .712   162.8   .177
12   Shaquille O'Neal   1993   2011   1207   34.7   23.7   10.9   2.5   0.6   2.3   .582   .045   .527   181.7   .208
13   Moses Malone   1977   1995   1329   33.9   20.6   12.2   1.4   0.8   1.3   .491   .100   .769   167.1   .178
14   John Havlicek   1963   1978   1270   36.6   20.8   6.3   4.8   1.2   0.3   .439      .815   131.7   .136
15   Elgin Baylor   1959   1972   846   40.0   27.4   13.5   4.3         .431      .780   104.2   .148
16   Julius Erving   1977   1987   836   34.3   22.0   6.7   3.9   1.8   1.5   .507   .261   .777   106.2   .178
17   Bob Pettit   1955   1965   792   38.8   26.4   16.2   3.0         .436      .761   136.0   .213
18   Karl Malone   1986   2004   1476   37.2   25.0   10.1   3.6   1.4   0.8   .516   .274   .742   234.6   .205
19   Charles Barkley   1985   2000   1073   36.7   22.1   11.7   3.9   1.5   0.8   .541   .266   .735   177.2   .216
20   LeBron James   2004   2015   911   39.3   27.3   7.1   6.9   1.7   0.8   .496   .342   .745   178.9   .240

tl;dr

You badmouthed my childhood idols Stockton and Malone, so this is now officially a food fight.

Actually, it was gonna be a food fight anyway, anytime someone makes a claim about the top ten this is how it ends.

Without further ado, this is my reply to your Bill Simmons book copy paste.

[droopdog7]

OKC was incredibly successful.

We clearly define success very differently.

Let me guess.  Championship or bust right?

That's fine but a very limited view.  Like I said, the goal is to be a legitimate title contender.  Beyond that too many variables.

I'm sure you also are one of those that considers Lebron a failure because he's only won 2 out of 5 championships.  That too, is a very narrow view.

[greece66]

OKC was incredibly successful.

We clearly define success very differently.

Let me guess.  Championship or bust right?

No reason to put words in my mouth. I never said that.

[greece66]

In the meantime, Forsberg is wondering if anyone got in the trouble of reading his article.

[BDeCosta26]

I think it's pointless to enter in a 'top 10 of all time' conversation here, but it's pretty obvious you can make a legit top 10 without including Timmy.

I completely, categorically disagree, but I guess that would be a different thread.

Still, I can't help but say that for me, Timmy is behind only MJ, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird.  He's DEFINITELY ahead of Kobe, and I'd place him ahead of Wilt and Shaq as well.  He's the greatest all around player of his generation.  LeBron is the only guy playing now who I think has a chance of surpassing him, but even then he has a lot of work to do.

You'd put Tim Duncan ahead of Wilt Chamberlain?!?!?! Oh lord. C'mon now. Why? Cause he has more rings? That's crazy. A legit case can be made that Wilt was the greatest player ever. I don't think you can say the same about Duncan.

Wilt Chamberlain once scored 100 points in an NBA game. He led the league in scoring 7 times, led the league in rebounding 11 times in 13 years, and even once led the league in assists. Over the course of his entire career, Wilt managed to average 30 PPG, 22 RPG and nearly 5 APG. In his FIRST NBA came, Wilt scored 43 points and grabbed 28 rebounds. He's still the only player EVER to grab more than 2000 rebounds in a single season, and he once averaged over 50 ppg and 20 time bounds for an entire season. That's simply amazing.

No player in NBA history made the kind of impact Wilt did. They changed the rules because of his pure dominance. If your gonna say "Duncan is better, he has like 5 rings and Wilt has two", that may he true but if not for Red and those insanely good Celtics teams Wilt would've won a bunch more.

Like D.o.s. Said, it's amazing that someone as insanely dominant as Wilt can actually be underrated.

[droopdog7]

To chime in, I'm not sure I would put Duncan ahead of wilt.  But I would have no problem putting him ahead of Barkley and even Bird.

[greece66]

To chime in, I'm not sure I would put Duncan ahead of wilt.  But I would have no problem putting him ahead of Barkley and even Bird.

High treason!

[Casperian]

I completely, categorically disagree, but I guess that would be a different thread.

Still, I can't help but say that for me, Timmy is behind only MJ, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird. 

Agreed. I'd even put him in the top 5 all-time. Sorry Magic, but Timmy's just better.

[greece66]

Reading the Timmy comments is just killing me.

Could we start a new thread plz?

Suggested title: Timmy GOAT <3 <3 <3

[Casperian]

Reading the Timmy comments is just killing me.

Could we start a new thread plz?

Suggested title: Timmy GOAT <3 <3 <3

Right after you start the Malone > McHale thread

[greece66]

Reading the Timmy comments is just killing me.

Could we start a new thread plz?

Suggested title: Timmy GOAT <3 <3 <3

Right after you start the Malone > McHale thread

Never in a C's forum.