Author Topic: Why the hate for Turner?  (Read 16492 times)

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Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2015, 07:22:15 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It's fine to speak in generalities, but the numbers just don't bear out the criticisms.


Except the numbers as they relate to scoring efficiency, free throw attempts, perimeter shooting, defense and turnovers.  Rebounding is pretty much the only thing he does well for his position, provided that you classify him as a shooting guard.  His playmaking is pretty good if you don't dock him for the turnovers.

Really, his problem is similar to Rondo's: His strengths are most pronounced and his weaknesses least pronounced when he has the ball in his hands, but he's not dangerous enough a scorer to justify having the ball all that frequently.  Rondo at his best was still worth it because his passing and rebounding were just that good, plus he was quite good defensively (at least as a ball-hawk).  Turner occasionally gets hot from mid-range or finds his way to the line, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough.

All in all, you can see why Turner was taken #2 overall.  If he could have developed a more dangerous jumper, gotten to the line more, and improved defensively at the point of attack, he could have become a borderline star. 

Unfortunately, he fell well short of that and like many potential star prospects, he doesn't have one truly elite ability to fall back on that would make him useful in a more limited role.


I'd be worried about Marcus Smart falling into the same trap if it weren't for his superb defense and the fact that his perimeter jumper seems to be good enough to at least allow him to work as a spot-up shooter.
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Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2015, 12:41:03 AM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Could be the hate stems from some posters expecting every starting Celtic player to be a super star.  A few years ago we had four of them in the lineup.  This team is filled with good role players. Maybe with the addition of David Lee and Amir that will change(?).

In my opinion Turner is a very good player.  Is he a superstar?  No, he's basically a leader on a team that sometimes seems rudderless without him. He is one of the more consistent players on the Celtics whether one likes him or not. 

If he were on the team during the KG era we likely would have won another championship or two.  He helps a mediocre team WIN more than Rondo did.  With better players around him he might prove himself to be an elite player. 

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2015, 12:53:46 AM »

Offline Jon

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I agree that the Turner hate is overblown. That said, if Danny can't pull a 2 for 1, will he consider cutting Turner and just eating his contract?

While he doesn't deserve that based on talent, it could make sense if the C's plan to let Smart handle the ball more this year and if Danny doesn't think he can get anything of value for Turner on the trade market.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2015, 03:07:21 AM »

Offline Bostoncelticsforlife7

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Turner is at his best when he is the lead ball handler. I believe for Smart to develop he needs to be the lead ball handler. So Turner is stunting the growth of our best prospect.
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Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2015, 07:05:23 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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It's fine to speak in generalities, but the numbers just don't bear out the criticisms.


Except the numbers as they relate to scoring efficiency, free throw attempts, perimeter shooting, defense and turnovers.  Rebounding is pretty much the only thing he does well for his position, provided that you classify him as a shooting guard.  His playmaking is pretty good if you don't dock him for the turnovers.

Really, his problem is similar to Rondo's: His strengths are most pronounced and his weaknesses least pronounced when he has the ball in his hands, but he's not dangerous enough a scorer to justify having the ball all that frequently.  Rondo at his best was still worth it because his passing and rebounding were just that good, plus he was quite good defensively (at least as a ball-hawk).  Turner occasionally gets hot from mid-range or finds his way to the line, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough.

All in all, you can see why Turner was taken #2 overall.  If he could have developed a more dangerous jumper, gotten to the line more, and improved defensively at the point of attack, he could have become a borderline star. 

Unfortunately, he fell well short of that and like many potential star prospects, he doesn't have one truly elite ability to fall back on that would make him useful in a more limited role.


I'd be worried about Marcus Smart falling into the same trap if it weren't for his superb defense and the fact that his perimeter jumper seems to be good enough to at least allow him to work as a spot-up shooter.

Im with you on this. And of all the flaws you mentioned turnovers botherme the most.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2015, 07:07:57 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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in his first season as a celt in  a merry go round of trades  turner had a good season
BUt some of his passes were just sooo bad,hair pulling out ,dumb,stupid ,lazy,you must be blind passes--whaat are you thinking,unbelievable,how could you,a high school player wouldn't make that,what are you on,,what the f---,are you insane,hopeless,braindead,whaaaat the heck are you seeing ,that made me want to puke,maddening,frustrating mind boggling passes-of course brad kept his cool ,my house still reverberates--but i like turner
I have to disagree with you. Turner was the most efficient ball handler we had.  He set up the offense effectively and played a very unselfish game.  Stevens was brilliant in the handling of Turner. ET is one of the main reasons the Celtics has such a solid second half. 

I watched every game this year and didn't see any of the dumb plays  you talk about. He had a very low turnover ratio.

He was certainly better at handling the team than Rondo.  He will be even better this year.

Younwatched every game and didnt see any bad passes from turner? He was streaky with it but it happened. Alot. nd when he got the turnover-itis it was real bad.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2015, 08:11:54 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Ugh......

He sucks. ... :-X

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2015, 08:28:24 AM »

Offline saltlover

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I agree that the Turner hate is overblown. That said, if Danny can't pull a 2 for 1, will he consider cutting Turner and just eating his contract?

While he doesn't deserve that based on talent, it could make sense if the C's plan to let Smart handle the ball more this year and if Danny doesn't think he can get anything of value for Turner on the trade market.

Why the heck would he do that?  Turner made our team better last year.  He went off and traded for David Lee, and signed Amir Johnson, because we're not tanking.  We're not committing long-term to guys who won't get us out of the second-round, but we're not trying to lose as we wink and say we're not.  The players most likely to be cut to get us to 15 are, in order:

1) Dragic -- virtual certainty, surprised if he makes it to camp
2) PJ3 -- we got a draft pick for taking his contract, and cash to pay for most of it.  He gets a chance to earn a roster spot, but he's on the outside looking in.
3) James Young -- a decision has to be made at the end of training camp to pick up his option for next season.  Ainge is keeping an eye towards minimizing salary next year.  If he looks like he's at least another year away, I would be surprised but not shocked to see him go.  We have so many draft picks coming up that we're going to miss on a couple, and if PJ3 beats him out for a roster spot, so be it.
4) Jared Sullinger -- He's much less likely, but if he shows up to camp still out of shape, then Young and PJ3 both have the chance to beat him out for the roster spot.  There are 6 bigs on the roster, and many lineups will only have one on the court at a time.  I don't expect that this will occur, because I will believe for now that Sullinger is hard at work.  But if he's not, he'll give PJ3 and Young the opportunity to pass him.

Turner is not getting cut.  If Smart is ready for more ball handling duties, Turner will play less, but he's not getting cut.  It's a long season, and injuries will occur -- he'll be needed at some point.  The only way ET is released is if he blows out his knee or Achilles in training camp, since he's on an expiring and wouldn't be able to help all season.  We are not such a good team that Evan Turner is beneath our talent level.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2015, 09:32:56 AM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

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Turner's skill set made him a necessary evil last season and probably for some of this season - at least until we can find or develop a 'proper' point guard.

He was painful to watch in the playoffs.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2015, 09:53:13 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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Am I the only person who doesn't hate Turner on this forum? I don't think he played terribly for the Celtics and his contract isn't outrageous or anything. Can someone just explain why everyone hates him? All the trade proposals to simply get rid of him seem a little crazy to me, in my eyes he's a pretty serviceable player.

I should also start a "why the hate for sully" thread but that's for another day.
I don't think it's 'hate'.  I think many feel there are better players out there than Turner that can provide more for us than he does.  Being a former #2 pick doesn't help him in his evaluations either.
As usual Slamtheking drops the measured take that sums up how I feel about him.

I think some read my and others like posts like mine and conclude that we hate Turner and its just not the case. I love watching Evan Turner play basketball, I wish I could play like Turner. But I'd like to see him do it somewhere else. I hope he goes to somewhere like Denver and drops 17, 6 and 5 on decent efficiency.

Hate couldn't be farther from what I think of him. If we were a team that was dominant in the front court and weaker on the wing Evan Turner would be an ideal player to lock up. But Marcus Smart, Isiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Terry Rozier, James Young and RJ Hunter all currently do or will soon need more touches and we have a boatload of first round picks to either draft another wing or flip for an established one.

The other day several posters slammed a trade proposal of mine, claiming among other things that it was too early in the rebuild to go all in. Well by that same logic I think it's too early in the rebuild to settle on Evan Turner for what is arguably the most talent rich position in the NBA.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2015, 10:01:14 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Last season, Turner helped the team a lot playing point forward because Smart was not ready to be the main ball handler.  Now in his second season, I would like to see him take on that role and I think Turner may hurt Smart's develpment as well as Rozier who should also handle that role.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2015, 10:29:16 AM »

Offline clover

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Last season, Turner helped the team a lot playing point forward because Smart was not ready to be the main ball handler.  Now in his second season, I would like to see him take on that role and I think Turner may hurt Smart's develpment as well as Rozier who should also handle that role.

I agree that Rozier/Smart should be the C's ultimate backcourt (with IT and Hunter off the bench, though IT and Smart may be a more complementary duo), but I don't think Rozier will be ready to handle that until midyear. Until then, Smart needs ET to help him out. He just does.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2015, 10:29:52 AM »

Offline clover

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Turner's skill set made him a necessary evil last season and probably for some of this season - at least until we can find or develop a 'proper' point guard.

He was painful to watch in the playoffs.

That proper PG will be Rozier, and it's going to take him some time to get there.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2015, 10:32:55 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Last season, Turner helped the team a lot playing point forward because Smart was not ready to be the main ball handler.  Now in his second season, I would like to see him take on that role and I think Turner may hurt Smart's develpment as well as Rozier who should also handle that role.

I agree that Rozier/Smart should be the C's ultimate backcourt (with IT and Hunter off the bench, though IT and Smart may be a more complementary duo), but I don't think Rozier will be ready to handle that until midyear. Until then, Smart needs ET to help him out. He just does.

Fair enough.

Re: Why the hate for Turner?
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2015, 10:45:00 AM »

Offline Jon

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I agree that the Turner hate is overblown. That said, if Danny can't pull a 2 for 1, will he consider cutting Turner and just eating his contract?

While he doesn't deserve that based on talent, it could make sense if the C's plan to let Smart handle the ball more this year and if Danny doesn't think he can get anything of value for Turner on the trade market.

Why the heck would he do that?  Turner made our team better last year.  He went off and traded for David Lee, and signed Amir Johnson, because we're not tanking.  We're not committing long-term to guys who won't get us out of the second-round, but we're not trying to lose as we wink and say we're not.  The players most likely to be cut to get us to 15 are, in order:

1) Dragic -- virtual certainty, surprised if he makes it to camp
2) PJ3 -- we got a draft pick for taking his contract, and cash to pay for most of it.  He gets a chance to earn a roster spot, but he's on the outside looking in.
3) James Young -- a decision has to be made at the end of training camp to pick up his option for next season.  Ainge is keeping an eye towards minimizing salary next year.  If he looks like he's at least another year away, I would be surprised but not shocked to see him go.  We have so many draft picks coming up that we're going to miss on a couple, and if PJ3 beats him out for a roster spot, so be it.
4) Jared Sullinger -- He's much less likely, but if he shows up to camp still out of shape, then Young and PJ3 both have the chance to beat him out for the roster spot.  There are 6 bigs on the roster, and many lineups will only have one on the court at a time.  I don't expect that this will occur, because I will believe for now that Sullinger is hard at work.  But if he's not, he'll give PJ3 and Young the opportunity to pass him.

Turner is not getting cut.  If Smart is ready for more ball handling duties, Turner will play less, but he's not getting cut.  It's a long season, and injuries will occur -- he'll be needed at some point.  The only way ET is released is if he blows out his knee or Achilles in training camp, since he's on an expiring and wouldn't be able to help all season.  We are not such a good team that Evan Turner is beneath our talent level.

I still think there's a much greater likelihood that Turner makes the team and two of the the guys you mentioned will get cut (it'll be Dragic and Jones, they aren't cutting Young and Sully) or that Danny makes a consolidating trade.

That said, I think cutting Turner is a possibility if the C's plan to take the ball out of his hands on offense AND Jones shows something in training camp AND Danny can't find any good 2 for 1 trade options around.

That's a lot of ifs, which is why I think it's a long a shot. But we all know Turner is only really useful with the ball in his hands. And if they are going to give Smart the reigns with the first team and IT will handle it when he's on the bench, not only does Turner's value to the team go down, so will likely his play if he has to play off the ball.

And if PJ3 shows he's worth keeping around, Danny may decide that cutting Turner--someone who is not going to be on the team after this year--is the best option they have.