Author Topic: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close  (Read 6246 times)

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Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2015, 07:13:45 PM »

Offline mctyson

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=thomais02&p2=irvinky01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_minute::none

------G----GS   -MP   --FG%   3P%   2P%   FT%   TRB   AST   STL TO   PF----PTS
K.I.   256   256   8832   0.45   0.39   0.48   0.86   3.7   5.9    1.5   3.0   2.3   21.9
I.T-   283   154   8001   0.44   0.36   0.49   0.86   3.1   5.9    1.2   2.7   2.8   19.9

*-per 36 minutes

I know they've often been compared to each other, but when I look at the numbers...Wow...that's close.


Of course, one thing we can't forget - $$$

K.I. - $16 million next year, up to $21 million in '19-'20

I.T. - $6.9 million next year, DOWN to $6.2 million in '17-'18.


Suffice it to say, the Celtics got a good deal with I.T.!!!

TP can you post advanced metrics too?

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2015, 07:22:06 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

That's the thing: he's 22 and still has room to grow.

This is unfortunately what CelticsBlog people focus on, and not whether that makes his team better.

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2015, 07:22:31 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=thomais02&p2=irvinky01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_minute::none

------G----GS   -MP   --FG%   3P%   2P%   FT%   TRB   AST   STL TO   PF----PTS
K.I.   256   256   8832   0.45   0.39   0.48   0.86   3.7   5.9    1.5   3.0   2.3   21.9
I.T-   283   154   8001   0.44   0.36   0.49   0.86   3.1   5.9    1.2   2.7   2.8   19.9

*-per 36 minutes

I know they've often been compared to each other, but when I look at the numbers...Wow...that's close.


Of course, one thing we can't forget - $$$

K.I. - $16 million next year, up to $21 million in '19-'20

I.T. - $6.9 million next year, DOWN to $6.2 million in '17-'18.


Suffice it to say, the Celtics got a good deal with I.T.!!!

TP can you post advanced metrics too?

Advanced
                TS%      TRB%   AST%   STL%   BLK%    TOV%   USG%   WS      BPM
K.I.      0.56      0.06   0.31     0.02      0.01      0.13     0.28       0.26    0.03
I.T-      0.58      0.05   0.28     0.02      0.00      0.14     0.24       0.23    0.01   

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2015, 07:32:26 PM »

Offline max215

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Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

That's the thing: he's 22 and still has room to grow.

This is unfortunately what CelticsBlog people focus on, and not whether that makes his team better.

I'm not saying it makes him a better player, but rather a more valuable asset. I still think Isaiah is criminally underrated and Kyrie is fairly overrated.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2015, 07:41:24 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I guess the difference is that at some point Kyrie may realize how to play defense. Isaiah physically can't.


Great words from a great man

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2015, 07:47:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

Bingo, TP.  In fairness, let me preface by saying that I'm not much of an IT fan, and I think this is one of those cases where numbers don't tell the whole story.  Statistically, yeah, okay, I can see at least a bit of a comparison, but I think that that ignores the fact that Thomas did his damage off the bench, meaning that he wasn't facing starter-level talent like Irving was (with or without Lebron) for the entire game.  Sure, he was out there in crunch time, but even so, I just think that this should be pointed out.

Additionally, Irving possesses the elite dribbling skills that Isaiah can only dream of, which allows him to be able to create his own shot at any moment.  Defensively, as well, is where there's quite the size mismatch.  Unfortunately for Isaiah, there's nothing he can do to offset his severe lack of height, which makes him quite the liability.  It's not that he doesn't try, but there's only so much you can do, team wise, to cover for him.  As for Kyie, at 6'3", he at least has the size to play both guard positions, and as we saw this year, playing on a contender meant that there was a much heavier emphasis on defense, so while he still has lapses every now and again, for the most part, he's taken it up a couple of notches in this regard.  Look at how he saved the day for the cavs at the end of game 1 of the finals when he blocked Curry's layup attempt (iirc, anyway) to send it to overtime.  He never would have made that type of effort if Lebron wasn't there, as had been the case in previous years.

Finally, in terms of player comparisons, IT reminds me a lot of a left handed, less athletic, worse ball handling version of Nate Robinson who gets to the line more often, and I'm not just saying that because they're both 5'9" and played at Washington ;D.  Both players have tremendous heart and love the big moments, but they also often play out of control and are, essentially, shooting guards in a point guard's body who are also poster boys for 'hero ball,' imo.

There is always the '13-'14 season when Thomas was starting for Sacramento when he averaged 20.3 / 6.3 / 45.3% against mostly western conference starters.

Listen, I am not here to make the case for Thomas being better than Irving, but you are basically calling him a worse version of Nate Robinson, which just isn't true. I will stand by the fact that Thomas is simply underrated because of his height while Kyrie has always been considered the next future superstar because of his draft position. Based on stats alone, Irving is just not currently that much better than Thomas...which works for us (because how little we had to give up to get him).

EDIT: FWIW, in that same '13-'14 season, in roughly the same amount of mpg (on an awful Eastern Conference team), Irving averaged 20.8 / 6.1 / 43.0%. Why is that better considerably better than Thomas?

I figured that someone would bring up the 13-14 season, and that's fine :).  Fair enough.  However, while you're right about having to play against mostly western conference starters that year, I think it's also important to point out that IT played with far more talent in Sacramento in Cousins (who, alone makes my point ;D), Rudy Gay (after he was traded there from Toronto in the December of 2013), and even Marcus Thornton, than what Irving had in Cleveland, meaning that the defense was always geared to stop him.

I never said that Kyrie's numbers were 'considerably better' - I just thought that it was important to point out the other factors when examining the respective stats from both dudes.  Look at Lance Stephenson this past year as opposed to how he played with the Pacers, as an example.  Isaiah is a good player, but he's not on Irving's level, imo.  Didn't you see the playoffs when he got completely exposed?  The reason why Kyrie is considered the next superstar or whatever, as opposed to Thomas, is because of his skills, in my eyes, not his draft position (although I suppose that that doesn't hurt).  I'm sure that, yes, you could make a good case for Isaiah being underrated because of his height, which plays into his whole Napoleon Complex, lol ;D, but perhaps it has more to do with his draft position, as you pointed out in your assessment of Irving, coupled with playing for Sacramento, even though that has hardly diminished the stats of DMC in the eyes of most people, I think.

Finally, if anything, these performances are why Irving is considered a superstar.  I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with that school of thought, btw, but I can certainly understand it.  Do you think that IT is on par with Steph Curry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXxt8hJbelo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkVhI8v5DAg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MrcSvNP0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_66oJd66-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayYzaEvlbTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0_iNSZfNi4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7bVhzs5JoY


Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2015, 08:48:38 PM »

Offline greece66

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Apples and oranges.

Irving is only 22, unless his knee injury holds him back, his ceiling is very high. Possibly a future HoFer.

IT is 25, he is unlikely to ever make it to an All Star game, but his productivity (esp. having in mind his contract) is just incredible. This trade by Ainge was the steal of last season.
but that's just the thing. Irving is made of glass
Good point.

But if it turns out that this is the case, and he never fully recovers from his injury, then saying that 'IT4 is scary close to Kyrie' is not much of a compliment really  :P

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2015, 09:42:03 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Isaiah is not as good as Kyrie but he is still a very good player

I actually feel Thomas is pretty close to Kyrie to be honest.  The only difference between the two that I see are:

1) Kyrie is a better ball handler (though Thomas is still excellent)
2) Height

I've always said that if Thomas was Kyrie's height, he'd be a superstar.

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2015, 09:45:17 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I figured that someone would bring up the 13-14 season, and that's fine :).  Fair enough.  However, while you're right about having to play against mostly western conference starters that year, I think it's also important to point out that IT played with far more talent in Sacramento in Cousins (who, alone makes my point ;D), Rudy Gay (after he was traded there from Toronto in the December of 2013), and even Marcus Thornton, than what Irving had in Cleveland, meaning that the defense was always geared to stop him.

Or on the other hand, the fact that Irving played with less talent meant that he was always the undisputed #1 option, which means the ball was always in his hand and his usage rate was always going to be sky high.

As opposed to Thomas, who was a third option behind Cousins and Gay (yet was still able to put up huge numbers).

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2015, 10:12:36 PM »

Offline greece66

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Isaiah is not as good as Kyrie but he is still a very good player

I actually feel Thomas is pretty close to Kyrie to be honest.  The only difference between the two that I see are:

1) Kyrie is a better ball handler (though Thomas is still excellent)
2) Height

I've always said that if Thomas was Kyrie's height, he'd be a superstar.

If we are going to go down this road ...

half the people in this thread would be superstars if they had Yao Ming's height.



Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2015, 10:14:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I figured that someone would bring up the 13-14 season, and that's fine :).  Fair enough.  However, while you're right about having to play against mostly western conference starters that year, I think it's also important to point out that IT played with far more talent in Sacramento in Cousins (who, alone makes my point ;D), Rudy Gay (after he was traded there from Toronto in the December of 2013), and even Marcus Thornton, than what Irving had in Cleveland, meaning that the defense was always geared to stop him.

Or on the other hand, the fact that Irving played with less talent meant that he was always the undisputed #1 option, which means the ball was always in his hand and his usage rate was always going to be sky high.

As opposed to Thomas, who was a third option behind Cousins and Gay (yet was still able to put up huge numbers).

I thought that I implied that.  Oops.  Sorry for the confusion.  I know that 'usage rate' is, well, used ;D a lot around here, but I'm not familiar with what it is, exactly.  Is it a measure of how often and for how long a player has the ball or something?

Again, I'm not saying that IT is a bad player, but I think he's really being overrated here.  As for being the third option on that Sacramento team, I was trying to say that the shots he would have gotten would have been better than Irving's, meaning that it was more likely for him to shoot a better percentage.  Am I making any sense, here?

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2015, 11:54:26 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

That's the thing: he's 22 and still has room to grow.

This is unfortunately what CelticsBlog people focus on, and not whether that makes his team better.

In comparison, Isiaiah's lifetime NBA record of 126-183 is clear and indisputable evidence that he makes a really tangible impact when it comes to winning games.



Also, Irving's pending superstardom was something that was being picked up as a leaguewide opinion while he was at Duke. It has always been "if this kid can stay healthy, he's going to be an incredible basketball player," and the notion that the hype only started after his draft selection is, simply, wrong.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2015, 11:58:30 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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EDIT: FWIW, in that same '13-'14 season, in roughly the same amount of mpg (on an awful Eastern Conference team), Irving averaged 20.8 / 6.1 / 43.0%. Why is that better considerably better than Thomas?

In 2004-2005, Steve Nash averaged 15-11-3. Stephon Marbury averaged 22-8-3. I don't think it's very controversial to say that Steve Nash was a better player that season than Marbury was, and I think you would agree.

In short anyone who thinks that Irving and Thomas are in the same strata might want to revisit that opinion. That's not a knock on Thomas, it's just acknowledging the fact that Irving is a "better" NBA talent.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2015, 12:09:59 AM »

Offline Rondo9

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EDIT: FWIW, in that same '13-'14 season, in roughly the same amount of mpg (on an awful Eastern Conference team), Irving averaged 20.8 / 6.1 / 43.0%. Why is that better considerably better than Thomas?

In 2004-2005, Steve Nash averaged 15-11-3. Stephon Marbury averaged 22-8-3. I don't think it's very controversial to say that Steve Nash was a better player that season than Marbury was, and I think you would agree.

In short anyone who thinks that Irving and Thomas are in the same strata might want to revisit that opinion. That's not a knock on Thomas, it's just acknowledging the fact that Irving is a "better" NBA talent.

Wasn't Nash an MVP leading the Suns to a 60 win team while Marbury led the Knicks to a mediocre record?

Re: Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2015, 12:25:19 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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That's certainly one factor that might lead someone to say that Nash was better than Marbury, sure. I just chose them more or less at random -- you could make the same example with, say, '96 Mark Jackson and 2004 Jason Kidd. Numbers are similar, Kidd was obviously better.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.