Isaiah vs Kyrie - scary close

[sofutomygaha]

The difference between 36% and 39% from three is the difference between good and great, but otherwise point well taken! Thomas draws a few more fouls than Irving, so their true shooting percentages also turn out to be very close.

[GratefulCs]

One big thing to note: Irving is already playing 36 minutes per game, while Thomas is unlikely to hit that in the near future. It's unlikely, for example, that IT would shoot 7.2 threes per game if he were playing 36 minutes per game.

Also, if you take the numbers from this year it's not quite as nice to look at, particularly in regards to shooting.
http://bkref.com/tiny/z1l3b

Love the Pizza guy, but he's no Kyrie Irving.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdC3uhPeEY




You're right though. I was just riding high til you hit me with the truth

[greece66]

Apples and oranges.

Irving is only 22, unless his knee injury holds him back, his ceiling is very high. Possibly a future HoFer.

IT is 25, he is unlikely to ever make it to an All Star game, but his productivity (esp. having in mind his contract) is just incredible. This trade by Ainge was the steal of last season.

[GratefulCs]

Apples and oranges.

Irving is only 22, unless his knee injury holds him back, his ceiling is very high. Possibly a future HoFer.

IT is 25, he is unlikely to ever make it to an All Star game, but his productivity (esp. having in mind his contract) is just incredible. This trade by Ainge was the steal of last season.

but that's just the thing. Irving is made of glass

[greece66]

The difference between 36% and 39% from three is the difference between good and great, but otherwise point well taken! Thomas draws a few more fouls than Irving, so their true shooting percentages also turn out to be very close.

I do not know enough analytics to follow you here. Care to give me a hand?

[PhoSita]

aside: I suppose this will wind up being more evidence for CB undervaluing our own players and overestimating everyone else? 

[jambr380]

One was the first pick of the draft while the other was the last pick. Kyrie is a very good player, but given contract situation and health, I am happier to have IT4.

Still, though, it can be argued that Kyrie is a cornerstone piece for a franchise while IT4 was basically tossed away for a late first. While I don't believe this is a valid argument, it just goes to prove how much more valuable IT4 is to us than in a trade.

I am happy to have him on our team and don't see any reason why he won't continue to be very productive (given playing time).

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

IT has an excuse for his poor defense, and he gets to the line a ton despite being so small.

If anything being so small helps him draw fouls 
I love his guts

Against Cleveland IT got to the line 8, 10, 2, and 12 times. He made 31/32. It's a huge part of his game.

And this is something the Cs sorely need consistently. Hopefully Smart and Rozier chip in a fair amount in this area as well.

[M.A.]

So, we can trade IT for Kyrie straight up, right?

[greece66]

So, we can trade IT for Kyrie straight up, right?

[droopdog7]

Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

[max215]

Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

That's the thing: he's 22 and still has room to grow.

[Beat LA]

Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

Bingo, TP.  In fairness, let me preface by saying that I'm not much of an IT fan, and I think this is one of those cases where numbers don't tell the whole story.  Statistically, yeah, okay, I can see at least a bit of a comparison, but I think that that ignores the fact that Thomas did his damage off the bench, meaning that he wasn't facing starter-level talent like Irving was (with or without Lebron) for the entire game.  Sure, he was out there in crunch time, but even so, I just think that this should be pointed out.

Additionally, Irving possesses the elite dribbling skills that Isaiah can only dream of, which allows him to be able to create his own shot at any moment.  Defensively, as well, is where there's quite the size mismatch.  Unfortunately for Isaiah, there's nothing he can do to offset his severe lack of height, which makes him quite the liability.  It's not that he doesn't try, but there's only so much you can do, team wise, to cover for him.  As for Kyie, at 6'3", he at least has the size to play both guard positions, and as we saw this year, playing on a contender meant that there was a much heavier emphasis on defense, so while he still has lapses every now and again, for the most part, he's taken it up a couple of notches in this regard.  Look at how he saved the day for the cavs at the end of game 1 of the finals when he blocked Curry's layup attempt (iirc, anyway) to send it to overtime.  He never would have made that type of effort if Lebron wasn't there, as had been the case in previous years.

Finally, in terms of player comparisons, IT reminds me a lot of a left handed, less athletic, worse ball handling version of Nate Robinson who gets to the line more often, and I'm not just saying that because they're both 5'9" and played at Washington .  Both players have tremendous heart and love the big moments, but they also often play out of control and are, essentially, shooting guards in a point guard's body who are also poster boys for 'hero ball,' imo.

[jambr380]

Kyrie is a mega talent, and as such is more valuable.  It's the subtle parts of the game that are keeping him from becoming a superstar (as well as injuries).  If he puts it together, watch out.

Bingo, TP.  In fairness, let me preface by saying that I'm not much of an IT fan, and I think this is one of those cases where numbers don't tell the whole story.  Statistically, yeah, okay, I can see at least a bit of a comparison, but I think that that ignores the fact that Thomas did his damage off the bench, meaning that he wasn't facing starter-level talent like Irving was (with or without Lebron) for the entire game.  Sure, he was out there in crunch time, but even so, I just think that this should be pointed out.

Additionally, Irving possesses the elite dribbling skills that Isaiah can only dream of, which allows him to be able to create his own shot at any moment.  Defensively, as well, is where there's quite the size mismatch.  Unfortunately for Isaiah, there's nothing he can do to offset his severe lack of height, which makes him quite the liability.  It's not that he doesn't try, but there's only so much you can do, team wise, to cover for him.  As for Kyie, at 6'3", he at least has the size to play both guard positions, and as we saw this year, playing on a contender meant that there was a much heavier emphasis on defense, so while he still has lapses every now and again, for the most part, he's taken it up a couple of notches in this regard.  Look at how he saved the day for the cavs at the end of game 1 of the finals when he blocked Curry's layup attempt (iirc, anyway) to send it to overtime.  He never would have made that type of effort if Lebron wasn't there, as had been the case in previous years.

Finally, in terms of player comparisons, IT reminds me a lot of a left handed, less athletic, worse ball handling version of Nate Robinson who gets to the line more often, and I'm not just saying that because they're both 5'9" and played at Washington .  Both players have tremendous heart and love the big moments, but they also often play out of control and are, essentially, shooting guards in a point guard's body who are also poster boys for 'hero ball,' imo.

There is always the '13-'14 season when Thomas was starting for Sacramento when he averaged 20.3 / 6.3 / 45.3% against mostly western conference starters.

Listen, I am not here to make the case for Thomas being better than Irving, but you are basically calling him a worse version of Nate Robinson, which just isn't true. I will stand by the fact that Thomas is simply underrated because of his height while Kyrie has always been considered the next future superstar because of his draft position. Based on stats alone, Irving is just not currently that much better than Thomas...which works for us (because how little we had to give up to get him).

EDIT: FWIW, in that same '13-'14 season, in roughly the same amount of mpg (on an awful Eastern Conference team), Irving averaged 20.8 / 6.1 / 43.0%. Why is that better considerably better than Thomas?

[Yenohb]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=thomais02&p2=irvinky01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_minute::none

------G----GS   -MP   --FG%   3P%   2P%   FT%   TRB   AST   STL TO   PF----PTS
K.I.   256   256   8832   0.45   0.39   0.48   0.86   3.7   5.9    1.5   3.0   2.3   21.9
I.T-   283   154   8001   0.44   0.36   0.49   0.86   3.1   5.9    1.2   2.7   2.8   19.9

*-per 36 minutes

I know they've often been compared to each other, but when I look at the numbers...Wow...that's close.


Of course, one thing we can't forget - $$$

K.I. - $16 million next year, up to $21 million in '19-'20

I.T. - $6.9 million next year, DOWN to $6.2 million in '17-'18.


Suffice it to say, the Celtics got a good deal with I.T.!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htiURZVuoks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ofiEqogb8w