Author Topic: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer  (Read 39454 times)

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Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #255 on: July 29, 2015, 06:22:40 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I've made a point of saying the same things, though I'll concede that perhaps it gets lost in longer posts that I have a tendency of making.

In general, I tend towards verbosity that is unnecessary.

I agree that this can make my posts seem more aggressive than they are intended to be.  I have a way of making agreement seem like argument.

I don't think exaggeration is quite right, but sometimes these arguments can go on for longer than makes any sense.  I do think some people are determined not to agree with me, no matter how hard I try to state things with equanimity.

One of the things I miss about being paid by the word is how much more thought goes into making sure everything is elaborated upon appropriately.

Not picking on LarBrd33, but I think it's quotes like these that kinda rub people the wrong way (me at least): "I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them."

There are ways to say this exact thing without coming off so opinionated and domineering. I don't think many people intend to be that way, but without the aids of tone, verbal and non-verbal cues, and body language, most times things like this come off the wrong way online. Simple phrases like "In my opinion" or "To me it seemed like" totally change the "tone" of the text, and I bet a lot of the contentious disagreements that occur on here could be erased by this type of etiquette.

Alas, the complexities of internet forums.  :)

And yet I get picked on for my use of emojiis and sarcasm in an attempt to solve this problem.  Go figure.
If you helps you guys, just imagine my voice as Steven Wright and a constant facial expression like this:



In other words...



Or if you prefer something more current...



Well, I do envision you as the human embodiment of pessimism/negativity, and all of those things do express those emotions in some form; thus, this is actually probably helpful! lol I'll have to try it out next time you post something.  ;)

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #256 on: July 29, 2015, 06:23:04 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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And yet I get picked on for my use of emojiis and sarcasm in an attempt to solve this very problem.  Go figure.

that's another one of the complexities of the internet, though.  using emojis, sarcasm, and gifs / meme pics to illustrate your tone and meaning tend to come off as smarmy & irreverent or downright disrespectful.

it's hard to please everyone. :P
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #257 on: July 29, 2015, 06:26:16 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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At no point did I feel like the games were winnable. 

Apparently, many people did, so at this point trying to have a reasoned argument about it is rather like discussing our feelings on whether God exists.
I agree.   I imagine there is at least some correlation between those who felt those games were winnable... and those who think it's plausible that a below .500 team could sneak into the playoffs and shock their way to a championship.   You can't really argue against it.  Some people believe in miracles.

2012 Philly 76ers are the best-case scenario for that.   They didnt' make the playoffs the next year.

Nobody realistically thinks this team is going to win a championship this year, or thought they were going to last year.  Not even me.

I find it hilarious that you keep mentioning the 2012 Philladelphia Seventy-Sixers as the most plausible scenario for us.  It seems to me that they are simply the example that best fits your scenario.
It's the best case scenario for a borderline playoff team.  They got matched up with an injured Chicago team in Round 1 and pulled off the upset.  Then in round 2 they matched up with an elderly Celtic team and took them to 7 games.   You don't get much more successful than that as an also-ran.

Oh, right.  I misunderstood. 

Personally, I'd be thrilled if we could get to the conference semis and take a contender to seven this coming season.



DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #258 on: July 29, 2015, 06:30:46 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I've made a point of saying the same things, though I'll concede that perhaps it gets lost in longer posts that I have a tendency of making.

In general, I tend towards verbosity that is unnecessary.

I agree that this can make my posts seem more aggressive than they are intended to be.  I have a way of making agreement seem like argument.

I don't think exaggeration is quite right, but sometimes these arguments can go on for longer than makes any sense.  I do think some people are determined not to agree with me, no matter how hard I try to state things with equanimity.

One of the things I miss about being paid by the word is how much more thought goes into making sure everything is elaborated upon appropriately.

Not picking on LarBrd33, but I think it's quotes like these that kinda rub people the wrong way (me at least): "I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them."

There are ways to say this exact thing without coming off so opinionated and domineering. I don't think many people intend to be that way, but without the aids of tone, verbal and non-verbal cues, and body language, most times things like this come off the wrong way online. Simple phrases like "In my opinion" or "To me it seemed like" totally change the "tone" of the text, and I bet a lot of the contentious disagreements that occur on here could be erased by this type of etiquette.

Alas, the complexities of internet forums.  :)

And yet I get picked on for my use of emojiis and sarcasm in an attempt to solve this problem.  Go figure.
If you helps you guys, just imagine my voice as Steven Wright and a constant facial expression like this:



In other words...



Or if you prefer something more current...



Well, I do envision you as the human embodiment of pessimism/negativity, and all of those things do express those emotions in some form; thus, this is actually probably helpful! lol I'll have to try it out next time you post something.  ;)

Actually, nope, I was wrong. THIS is so you. You should change it to your forum picture, because your current one promotes too much joy on your part.  ;)


Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #259 on: July 29, 2015, 08:08:38 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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And yet I get picked on for my use of emojiis and sarcasm in an attempt to solve this very problem.  Go figure.

that's another one of the complexities of the internet, though.  using emojis, sarcasm, and gifs / meme pics to illustrate your tone and meaning tend to come off as smarmy & irreverent or downright disrespectful.

it's hard to please everyone. :P

In my opinion, had the words "in my opinion" preceded this statement, it would have come off as much less condescending and supercilious itself.

I'm just kidding, but Beat LA's use of emoticons and denotations of sarcasm never came off to me like that. Sure, I don't do it (and may or may not think that it takes away from the fun ambiguity of the internet), but it always came off to me as a sincere attempt to be transparent and remove any possible misunderstanding.

Actually, Phosita, I like how you communicate through the interweb. Your posts are straightforward and well thought-out, and you use emoticons every once in a while to disarm any possible tension and make your intentions more clear.

Fun Fact (that I think is pertinent to the conversation): People tend to read general statements from the internet as snarky or ill-willed, while they are more likely to read something with a positive denotation as a neutral statement. For example, when you read, "Great job," over the internet, you are more likely to read that statement as condescending or as having a negative connotation. On the other hand, when you read, "Great job!" on the internet, you are more likely to read it as a general statement (like, "Great job." would read "in real life"). This post itself excludes emoticons for that very reason, as I didn't want anyone to think I was mocking them by using smiley-faces or the like.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #260 on: July 29, 2015, 10:46:16 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I wasn't around these parts during the 2013 Draft, so would anyone mind informing me as to what the general reaction was to Danny taking KO over Giannis? Giannis is honestly one of my favorite players in the league, so I don't look back fondly on that decision.

From what I recall, a good number of people were stumping for Giannis or Dieng, and a few for Schroder (though not too many due to Rondo being around).  The Celts moving up to select Olynyk was a bit of a surprise.

I remember being dubious of Giannis, thinking he could end up as another Austin Daye / Anthony Randolph, and feeling a little bit excited because of how productive Kelly was in college.  I remember thinking, though, that Dieng could have addressed the needs of the team better and that it would've been nice to end up with a player with the kind of upside that Giannis had.

What would have made more sense is if we had drafted like this -

2013 - Dieng
2014 - Vonleh and whoever, lol ;D
2015 - Winslow, Hunter, etc.

At least at that point we'd have a core and a vision for the team moving forward, but why do what makes sense, right, lol ;D? Ugh. I'll never understand the Isaiah Thomas trade, and we might as well have kept Rondo for the year (and then perhaps let him walk or perhaps not, depending on who we could have gotten in the draft), still traded Green (if not for Prince than a first round pick in this year's draft), and finished the season with the 9th or 10th worst record, which ultimately nets us Winslow.



Okay, what have I done wrong now, lol ;D?

Why Vonleh over Smart? Smart has already proven he's a capable NBA player, Vonleh hasn't.

And would you really rather had kept Rondo all year than have Crowder, IT, and the Dallas pick, just for the sake of maybe being worse?

The reason I was for Smart or Randle was because I hadn't seen a video of Vonleh which I later came across and had me like :o (that's also the last time I'll ever put all my stock into draft express videos, lol ;D. They're too negative, imo.).  Smart is okay, but nothing in his highlights really gave off the same impression.  Here, have a look at this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYXa1_nb_Dk

OH MY GOD :o. An 18/19 year old power forward who already has better post moves, with either hand, than 90-95% of guys in the league, plus he can rebound, defend, pass, shhot (even out to the 3 point line, as we saw in the summer league) and handle?  Wow.  You know what would have been even better, though?  If we had traded for Vonleh before the draft.  Charlotte clearly had no idea in what they had in him, imo, as evidenced by their reason for trading the guy - because they couldn't move Cody Zeller.  Seriously.  Unbelievable.  Give them ET, Sully, and KO for Vonleh and their second round pick at 39, which they traded to Brooklyn, anyway, leaving us with Vonleh and Smart, plus the guys from this year's draft.  Noah had some good games at the end of the year, btw, when they actually gave him the time.  Check this out -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjWnbHACRk

Crowder is a good player, but giving him a 5 year deal was ridiculous, imo, but I hope that I'm proven wrong.  It would have been better to have signed Glenn Robinson III, who just inked a 3 year deal with the Pacers.  Doh!  God I love and hate Larry right now, lol ;D. Alternatively, Crowda ;D could just have been replaced with an undrafted free agent.

I'm not sure about the Dallas pick, and I'm not an IT fan.  He's just too much of a defensive liability, imo, as was seen in the playoffs, and he excels at hero ball.  Great (sarcasm) ::). We could have gotten a better player from, again, this year's class of undrafted free agents ;D, imo.

All in all, and whether Rondo would have stayed or not, I guess I'm looking more at the big picture.  Wouldn't you rather have a young core of Vonleh, Winslow, and Smart, instead of whatever this 'roster' is right now?  At least we'd have a vision of what kind of team we want to make moving forward, and at that point we could start to shoot for making the postseason this year.  I'm not advocating for a 76ers approach, here, but I just feel like it's best long-term if we first have the necessary talent in place, and the last two drafts were loaded.  I know, I'm nuts ;D.

I think Vonleh's issue was attitude, iirc. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that in his draft workouts something came across bad to Danny or Brad about his attitude. The kid has talent and potential, but with the culture that Brad is trying to build here I think they're trying to sway away from those types.

Now I'm of the opinion that the package was too much, but you HAVE to think that Danny said "Hey, I have Olynyk over here. Since Kamibsky is a clone of KO, why not substitute him for one of the picks?" If they were set on Kaminsky and we're working under the assumption that KO and Kamibsky are very very similar players with similar ceilings, then they had no reason to not take that deal. They could've got their guy along with more assets, and we could've fixed our PF jam and added Winslow. It makes too much sense for everyone involved. Surely KO was at least brought up as a possibility.

This is one of the many inconsistencies with Danny Ainge that has always puzzled me.  He often says how he wants 'high character guys,' and yet drafts a guy in Smart who went into the stands after a fan (yes, I know what was said, and I'm appalled by it, but I do remember that people were questioning Smart's attitude, self-control, decision making, and stuff after it happened, so that's the only reason why I'm bringing it up in the first place), stuck by Sullinger after he beat up his girlfriend (okay, I guess that I should say 'allegedly beat up his girlfriend'), and didn't Fab Melo get kicked off the team for academic reasons (talk about the gift which keeps on giving.  Ugh).  So to then turn around and say that they loved Vonleh's talent but his attitude was concerning just makes me roll my eyes, quite honestly.

I guess another way you could look at this is that there are, obviouly, different kinds of character concerns.  Look at Mitch McGary, for example, who is a lot like Sullinger, 3 pointer and body aside, as a player.  He got busted for weed while at Michigan, which caused him to slip in the draft (I was hoping that those character concerns would mean that he would drop a lot further, allowing us to trade for him, perhaps, but alas, okc ruined that idea.  Deng Sam Presti ;D), but would you rather have a guy who got caught engaging in an activity in which many other current players apparently partake, or would you prefer to have someone associated with domestic violence on our roster?  Right. 

I'm not saying that doing weed is okay, btw, I was just making the point that it could be a lot worse. 

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #261 on: July 29, 2015, 11:57:19 PM »

Offline sawick48

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MJ saved us from ourselves here.  and i'm not even of the opinion that the Brooklyn pick will be all that valuable (i think they get the 8 seed again.  any delusions of any of our picks being extremely valuable will inevitably lead to alot of people around here being disappointed come the end of the year).  but to offer 4 1sts for a guy that to me, grades out at best as a poor man's Luol Deng....no thanks.  that's not a knock.  Winslow is a nice player that plays hard, i just don't see anything that he does very well that projects him into the upper echelon of the league at any point in his career.  a good starter, better on defense than offense, with no go to move for a sure bucket.  we have that in Crowder.

bad offer, even worse rejection, just glad it worked out to our benefit.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #262 on: July 30, 2015, 12:04:02 AM »

Offline MBunge

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we would have been better served to have gotten Winslow, and Vonleh (via trade, perhaps), etc., for next year.  At that point, you can start trying to make the playoffs, imo, but to do so without first getting the talent does more harm than good.

And here's one of the problems.

Freshman Marcus Smart was probably as good or better in college than freshman Justise Winslow, who spent most of the season as clearly the third best player on his team.  Vonleh just spent a season barely able to get off the bench for a bad Charlotte team.  Yet they are "talent" and the current Celtics aren't.

THIS is what causes a lot of the aggravation around here.  Not just being negative about the Celtics but simultaneously being positive about players who are no better and sometimes demonstrably worse than current Celtics.  Oh, and the amateur GMing that dumps on Boston's success because it wasn't achieved the way you thought it would be.

I like Winslow and Vonleh still has potential but the idea that adding them would radically change the talent level on this team is nonsensical.

Mike

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #263 on: July 30, 2015, 12:09:45 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Agreed, the team is still pretty not so good to OK with Vonleh + Winslow instead of Smart and company. That said, it's more important to have a player in the backcourt who can develop into a starting-caliber player than an iffy prospect at PF, IMO.
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