Author Topic: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer  (Read 39446 times)

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Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #90 on: July 28, 2015, 07:40:51 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

Now choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

Oh come on, why would they ever take a sf like Winslow when they already have the immortal MKG (sarcasm) ::)?  This is a clear example of the bpa strategy at it's finest (sarcasm) ;D.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #91 on: July 28, 2015, 07:45:53 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I truly believe we'll look back at that trade falling through and be happy. The biggest reason is I tend to think Winslow was overrated by the masses desperately searching for that first star in this rebuild.

I already am glad.

It's fair to argue that one superstar is worth more than 3 borderline starters, but the issue here is that I don't believe either Justise nor Frank has superstar potential.

If you have to choose between having three fringe starters (say Evan Turner, Jae Crowder and Amir Johnson) or one good-but-not-great starter (say, Nicholas Batum) then I would have to say I'd choose the three fringe starters. 

The depth gained by adding three borderline starters is more valuable IMO than the talent gained by adding one good (but not great) starter IMO.

I think Hunter and Mickey have the potential to become borderline starters, and I think Rozier has the potential to be a good starter (or even a star).  I think Frank and Justise have the potential to be a 'good starter' at best.

In hindsight, I wouldn't even trade $16, #28 and #33 straight up for #9 or #10.  I like the trio of guys we selected more than any one guy who was available at #9 or #10.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2015, 07:51:54 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2015, 08:13:08 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Usually I think of Zach Lowe as a very reliable source, but I'm not convinced this story is at all true.  For the Hornets to turn down four First round picks so they could draft Kaminski at 9 when he likely would have been available at 16 would be beyond incompetence.  On the other hand trading 4 first round picks to draft a small forward who can't shoot would be equally incompetent.  If Danny actually offered this trade the leprechaun was looking out for all of us when he squashed it.  Marcus Smart was a better college player than Winslow at a more important position and no one would have advocated trading 4 first rounders to draft Smart. 


Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2015, 08:26:11 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

What you don't seem to understand is that a lot of us enjoyed watching the team win last year.  It was fun.  Will it hurt in the long wrong?  Who can say.  But it was a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to this season much more than I would have had we finished in 10th.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2015, 08:26:55 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

I think Anti-tankers do understand. But they also understand there are various ways to rebuild.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2015, 08:33:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

What you don't seem to understand is that a lot of us enjoyed watching the team win last year.  It was fun.  Will it hurt in the long wrong?  Who can say.  But it was a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to this season much more than I would have had we finished in 10th.
I actually was fully on board with the playoff run.  It was a nice little high.  I've never sniffed glue, but I'm guessing it was similar to sniffing glue.  Actually, that might be too strong of a high.  More like the mild light-headness you get from inhaling helium from a balloon.  You're depriving your brain of oxygen, but your funny voice is entertaining and it's relatively harmless.    Side note:  Isaiah Thomas should do all his post-game interviews on Helium.  It would make him even more adorable.

I've said it before, but the main reason I was on board with the playoff run (despite knowing we were getting swept and would have our draft pick impacted) was because it kept Brad Stevens invested and the players committed to his vision.  It's easy for a coach to lose players.  I think Brad is outstanding.  I wanted him to stick around.  I take the rumors of him leaving for the NCAA seriously and I want to prevent that from happening while Danny works his magic.

Others seemed to think it would help our ability to recruit free agents.  I didn't believe it at the time, but I was proven wrong this summer when we succeeded in recruiting Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year.   This seems to be the summer of me being proven wrong and as a Celtic fan I'm tickled pink about it.   Looking forward to the season. 

But even as someone who was against tanking last year... you find out that you'd have to give up half your assets to move up 6 spots and it's a little humbling.   Here's hoping one of our three rookies surpasses expectations.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:45:05 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #97 on: July 28, 2015, 09:02:53 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

I think Anti-tankers do understand. But they also understand there are various ways to rebuild.

I was generalizing, perhaps unfairly. It's just that sometimes I hear rationalizations like "Well, if we make the playoffs it's probably a difference between picking 10 and 14th, so we might as well make a run for it because there isn't a big difference between those picks." It's just that sometimes, there could be a big difference depending on how the draft plays out. You can't know how it's going to turn at the time though, so I've always just pushed for the lowest possible pick and that means the least possible wins.

I do tend to dismiss most of the "good vibes" and "hard-working/team first" propaganda that comes out for teams that aren't too good because it never seems like we see "bad vibes"/"selfish players" stories come out except for after a disappointing season or when a player is traded. However, I do believe that the positivity surrounding the team has to somehow work to their advantage at some point (while understanding that luck is often the most important factor in the league). I just wish that we had at least one young star in here so that they could stop random asset hoarding mode and start actually building around somebody.

They haven't necessarily made any bad moves in the last two years but they also haven't been able to get that one cornerstone player that can be a top 3 player on a deep playoff team.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #98 on: July 28, 2015, 09:07:34 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick


Olynyk was picked thirteenth (by Dallas, I believe) and traded for.  He was a lottery pick. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #99 on: July 28, 2015, 09:14:57 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I just wish that we had at least one young star in here so that they could stop random asset hoarding mode and start actually building around somebody.

They haven't necessarily made any bad moves in the last two years but they also haven't been able to get that one cornerstone player that can be a top 3 player on a deep playoff team.


You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #100 on: July 28, 2015, 09:17:15 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick



Olynyk was picked thirteenth (by Dallas, I believe) and traded for.  He was a lottery pick. 
wow, talk about stretching to make your point.  trading up to #13 is your idea of questioning Danny's ability to make a good pick in the lottery? 

whether you like Smart and KO, they're definitely NBA caliber players.  KO has been better than a fair number of players selected before him.  Wiggins is the only player taken before Smart that outplayed him last year. 

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #101 on: July 28, 2015, 09:26:54 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Holy crap that's an offer... I wonder what kind of haul we were offering to get #15.

Just goes to show you the difference in value between #16 and #9.   

Crazy to think that with a couple weeks left in the season, we were essentially tied with Charlotte for the 9th worst record.   The last 11 games of the season made a drastic change.  We ended up making the playoffs and getting swept, but it's ok because it helped us recruit Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year.  I'm not sure we would have been able to get Amir Johnson for 12 mil per year had we not gotten swept in the playoffs after stumbling in with a below .500 record... so it all worked out.

Yeah, crazy, eh?

It's so crazy, you had to mention it what, 400 times during the last few weeks?

In my case it's definitely crossed my mind 400 times the last few weeks. It's just so [dang] frustrating. Anti-tankers don't seem to understand that little things like a few games here or there, a lost coin toss that moves you from 5 to 6, or making the playoffs and jumping from like 9-10 to 16 can be the difference between getting a big asset/star and a non-asset/role player.

People may say, "well winning a few extra games only cost us X amount in draft slot, what's the big deal?" The answer is, some years, it's no big deal at all. Other years it could be a HUGE deal if the draft falls a certain way and the team ahead of you gets the guy you want, or the last star-caliber player available. The fact is, during the season you have no idea whether it may be a huge deal or not, so it's best just to hope for more losses than not.

I think Anti-tankers do understand. But they also understand there are various ways to rebuild.

I was generalizing, perhaps unfairly. It's just that sometimes I hear rationalizations like "Well, if we make the playoffs it's probably a difference between picking 10 and 14th, so we might as well make a run for it because there isn't a big difference between those picks." It's just that sometimes, there could be a big difference depending on how the draft plays out. You can't know how it's going to turn at the time though, so I've always just pushed for the lowest possible pick and that means the least possible wins.

I do tend to dismiss most of the "good vibes" and "hard-working/team first" propaganda that comes out for teams that aren't too good because it never seems like we see "bad vibes"/"selfish players" stories come out except for after a disappointing season or when a player is traded. However, I do believe that the positivity surrounding the team has to somehow work to their advantage at some point (while understanding that luck is often the most important factor in the league). I just wish that we had at least one young star in here so that they could stop random asset hoarding mode and start actually building around somebody.

They haven't necessarily made any bad moves in the last two years but they also haven't been able to get that one cornerstone player that can be a top 3 player on a deep playoff team.

Well for what it's worth, I feel that Smart is a star in the making.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #102 on: July 28, 2015, 09:27:29 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick



Olynyk was picked thirteenth (by Dallas, I believe) and traded for.  He was a lottery pick. 
wow, talk about stretching to make your point.  trading up to #13 is your idea of questioning Danny's ability to make a good pick in the lottery? 

whether you like Smart and KO, they're definitely NBA caliber players.  KO has been better than a fair number of players selected before him.  Wiggins is the only player taken before Smart that outplayed him last year.

I like Smart and Olynyk a lot.  I think you misunderstood my point. 

My point is that those who are disappointed that we didn't tank for a lottery pick last year and don't look like we are primed to do so this year, would likely be disappointed in whoever we got in the lottery if we did tank for a high pick anyway. 

Then, it just becomes a rinse and repeat process.  History has shown that repeated tanking very rarely leads to building a championship caliber team. 



DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2015, 09:41:28 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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My point is that those who are disappointed that we didn't tank for a lottery pick last year and don't look like we are primed to do so this year, would likely be disappointed in whoever we got in the lottery if we did tank for a high pick anyway. 

This sounds like fatalism to justify your own position, honestly.

Personally, I'm not disappointed by Smart or Olynyk.

I wish we had ended up with Jabari or Wiggins last year, but it is what it is.  I felt good about the pick then and I don't regret it now.  I think Smart can be a building block, albeit not a primary one.  That's OK.  You can't expect to necessarily get a franchise player at #6 in any given year.

Olynyk was a lottery pick, sure, but he was a late lottery pick in a draft that was deep on role players and very shallow on starting quality players.  I regret that Ainge chose Olynyk ahead of higher upside guys taken after him, but the pick was defensible.


My attitude has been that the draft is a very important part of the rebuild, but it's also far from a sure thing.  That's why it's important to have multiple opportunities to select in the top 10, and vitally important to make the most of those picks when you get them.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2015, 09:41:50 PM »

Offline bogg

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I was generalizing, perhaps unfairly. It's just that sometimes I hear rationalizations like "Well, if we make the playoffs it's probably a difference between picking 10 and 14th, so we might as well make a run for it because there isn't a big difference between those picks." It's just that sometimes, there could be a big difference depending on how the draft plays out. You can't know how it's going to turn at the time though, so I've always just pushed for the lowest possible pick and that means the least possible wins.

I do tend to dismiss most of the "good vibes" and "hard-working/team first" propaganda that comes out for teams that aren't too good because it never seems like we see "bad vibes"/"selfish players" stories come out except for after a disappointing season or when a player is traded. However, I do believe that the positivity surrounding the team has to somehow work to their advantage at some point (while understanding that luck is often the most important factor in the league). I just wish that we had at least one young star in here so that they could stop random asset hoarding mode and start actually building around somebody.

They haven't necessarily made any bad moves in the last two years but they also haven't been able to get that one cornerstone player that can be a top 3 player on a deep playoff team.

Well, there is also the fact that Boston played entertaining basketball for a couple months and gave the fans something to be interested in, which is worth something for what's, at its essence, an entertainment company. Sure, they got swept by Cleveland, but nothing I saw in the rest of the first round makes me think that had they drawn any other opponent they wouldn't have played a competitive series with at least an outside shot at pulling off an upset (I mean, Brooklyn took a pair of games off Atlanta). I'm not broken up over winding up outside the lottery.