Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer

[Celtics18]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks though.

[Rondo9]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

[droopdog7]

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

[slamtheking]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

assuming you're referring to Danny Ainge on the picks
2 things:
- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick
- Marcus Smart >>> Marcus Banks.  has to be one of the most uninformed nicknames a different poster has tried to get started around here.  Banks was a better ball handler but didn't defend and didn't have the motor that Smart has. 
also, whether you like Banks or not, he played 8 years in the league with 5 teams so he had to have had something that teams thought was worth signing.  he wasn't one of those bigs that lasts in the league just because they're tall.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

assuming you're referring to Danny Ainge on the picks
2 things:
- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick
- Marcus Smart >>> Marcus Banks.  has to be one of the most uninformed nicknames a different poster has tried to get started around here.  Banks was a better ball handler but didn't defend and didn't have the motor that Smart has. 
also, whether you like Banks or not, he played 8 years in the league with 5 teams so he had to have had something that teams thought was worth signing.  he wasn't one of those bigs that lasts in the league just because they're tall.

Olynyk?

[hwangjini_1]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

assinine and shallow remarks anyone?

[Celtics4ever]

Glad, we didn't make that trade, can we reserve judgement until we see where the Brooklyn pick lies.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I'd argue GMs worrying about their immediate job security undervalue 1st round picks far more than fans overvalue them.

Seriosuly, there's no way you can look at Charlotte's "we have to do this now" offseason and think it makes any sense from a basketball standpoint. They're trying to get good enough to sell some tickets, there is no path to contention there.

[celticsclay]

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I think it just shows that Charlotte under values them, probably because they have made such poor ones.

[celticsclay]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

assuming you're referring to Danny Ainge on the picks
2 things:
- who was the other lottery pick he's made other than Smart?  I could be going senile but I can't remember him making another lotto pick
- Marcus Smart >>> Marcus Banks.  has to be one of the most uninformed nicknames a different poster has tried to get started around here.  Banks was a better ball handler but didn't defend and didn't have the motor that Smart has. 
also, whether you like Banks or not, he played 8 years in the league with 5 teams so he had to have had something that teams thought was worth signing.  he wasn't one of those bigs that lasts in the league just because they're tall.

Marcus Banks had a pretty average career for the 13th pick in a draft I think and it was mostly derailed/shorted by injuries.  Interesting read on him from a few years ago when he was still playing in d league

http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/marcus-banks-works-regain-nba-footing

[Rondo9]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come.

I think a lot of pro-tankers like myself are operating under the assumption that if Ainge had a few early picks he wouldn't totally mess them up like Charlotte has. The Celtics have shown themselves to be a pretty solid organization and Ainge's draft record, while not perfect, should be considered at least above average.

According to many, he whiffed on his last two lottery picks, though.

Banks 2.0 anyone?

assinine and shallow remarks anyone?

I was just joking and referring to that guy who continuously says Marcus Smart is Banks 2.0. Sorry If I didn't clarify.

[Hardwood Harry]

As great a player as MJ  was, his front office incarnation is his polar opposite. The fact that he was on the other end of this potential trade tells me history will shine favorably on our side...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/33995-michael-jordan-shoots-and-misses-again-in-the-nba-draft

He is the NBA's front office Shleprock !!

[droopdog7]

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I'd argue GMs worrying about their immediate job security undervalue 1st round picks far more than fans overvalue them.

Seriosuly, there's no way you can look at Charlotte's "we have to do this now" offseason and think it makes any sense from a basketball standpoint. They're trying to get good enough to sell some tickets, there is no path to contention there.

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I think it just shows that Charlotte under values them, probably because they have made such poor ones.

Something is worth what people will pay for it.  Or in this case, the value of something can be judged by what others are willing to give you for it. 

We know of the Charlotte scenario.  And we can logically surmise that Miami also said (or would have said) no based on how much they valued Winslow.  And how do we know that DA started with Charlotte and not earlier in the draft?  So it very likely isn't just one team that said no.

And as I was saying before, non-lottery picks are simply a crap shoot and most often turn into very little. Take a look at our own team, which is full of mid first round picks and tell me whether you would package them for the chance at a star.  How many lop-sided trade proposals am I going to read from Celtic fan that involves our collection of mediocore players for a star?  Way too many.  Our fans propose these because whether they want to admit it or not, they are lopsided in our favor.

So ultimately, we have no idea whether Winslow will become a star.  But one star (or borderline star) is worth an infinite number of JAGs (Just Another Guy).   

[celticsclay]

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I'd argue GMs worrying about their immediate job security undervalue 1st round picks far more than fans overvalue them.

Seriosuly, there's no way you can look at Charlotte's "we have to do this now" offseason and think it makes any sense from a basketball standpoint. They're trying to get good enough to sell some tickets, there is no path to contention there.

What this story shows, more than anything, is that fans greatly overvalue the first round picks as assets.  The fact that two team passed should be definitive proof.  Anything below the lottery is not very much.  And while the New Jersey pick is a wild card, you probably take the known (at #9) over the unknown anyway.  That pick could well be out of the lottery.

No choosing Kaminsky is another thing entirely.

I think it just shows that Charlotte under values them, probably because they have made such poor ones.

Something is worth what people will pay for it.  Or in this case, the value of something can be judged by what others are willing to give you for it. 

We know of the Charlotte scenario.  And we can logically surmise that Miami also said (or would have said) no based on how much they valued Winslow.  And how do we know that DA started with Charlotte and not earlier in the draft?  So it very likely isn't just one team that said no.

And as I was saying before, non-lottery picks are simply a crap shoot and most often turn into very little. Take a look at our own team, which is full of mid first round picks and tell me whether you would package them for the chance at a star.  How many lop-sided trade proposals am I going to read from Celtic fan that involves our collection of mediocore players for a star?  Way too many.  Our fans propose these because whether they want to admit it or not, they are lopsided in our favor.

So ultimately, we have no idea whether Winslow will become a star.  But one star (or borderline star) is worth an infinite number of JAGs (Just Another Guy).

When you start getting higher than 9 the value does change and we would possibly start looking at drafting other players. I think everyone would trade 4 middle round first round picks for Karl Towns. Perhaps everyone would also trade 4 middle first round picks for Okafor or Russel.

However, the consensus I have read seems to be that a lot of the GM's in Charlotte's position would have taken that trade. I actually think there is probably a 30% chance they still could have gotten Frank Kaminsky at 15. We can't use one notoriously stubborn (and also just flat out bad) owners refusal of our package to mean that the the rest of the owners in the league would act the same for the same situation.

I would bet a very sizeable amount of money in fact, if we were offering Brooklyn one of their picks back and they were selecting 9th they would take considerably less (same with Dallas).

[TheTruthFot18]

I realized while reading this article that the Hornets were doing a 06-07 Celtics tanking job and just missed out on Anthony Davis. ANTHONY DAVIS. Instead they got MKG.

The Hornets would basically be the Pelicans and the rebuild would be called a success. Instead they are ridiculed.

Anyone who wants to tank, tank, tank and aquire top 10 picks for years should examine the Hornets. Sure OKC did it, and GS too. Ok but Durant was what could have been in Charlotte by landing Anthony Davis and GS got rather lucky that Curry and Thompson blossomed into more than just volume scorers.