Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer

[LilRip]

man, what an offer to turn down! although i would've loved to see winslow in green too.

[CelticSooner]

I truly believe we'll look back at that trade falling through and be happy. The biggest reason is I tend to think Winslow was overrated by the masses desperately searching for that first star in this rebuild.

[saltlover]

A really interesting quote from the article, tweaked a little bit:

[Boston] had scraped out a path to relevancy in the weak East. The [Celtics] would never entice LeBron or even Love in free agency, but perhaps they were appealing enough to attract a B-level free agent — someone like [Greg Monroe], their initial target, or [David Lee / Amir Johnson]. If that worked, the [Celtics] might transform into the sort of rising 48-win team that could persuade the next B-level free agent. From there, you’re at 50-plus wins, a break or two from playing in the conference finals.

It wasn’t the cleanest process, but building from the middle is messy.

Well, first of all, after all the speculation from fans of Monroe as a target, it was quite apparent that Monroe was never of real [or any] interest to the Celtics. Let's start with that.

And then let's continue with the fact that Charlotte has had a top 9 picks in 5 drafts in a row, including consecutive top 4 picks.  And they just let the first of those picks go without so much as giving him a qualifying offer.  That's how they got to this position.

[PhoSita]

A really interesting quote from the article, tweaked a little bit:

[Boston] had scraped out a path to relevancy in the weak East. The [Celtics] would never entice LeBron or even Love in free agency, but perhaps they were appealing enough to attract a B-level free agent — someone like [Greg Monroe], their initial target, or [David Lee / Amir Johnson]. If that worked, the [Celtics] might transform into the sort of rising 48-win team that could persuade the next B-level free agent. From there, you’re at 50-plus wins, a break or two from playing in the conference finals.

It wasn’t the cleanest process, but building from the middle is messy.

Well, first of all, after all the speculation from fans of Monroe as a target, it was quite apparent that Monroe was never of real [or any] interest to the Celtics. Let's start with that.

Monroe was just an example, but honestly I don't buy that the Celtics were not interested in him.  There were numerous reports throughout the season that Monroe was one of the Celtics targets.  Then it just so happens that when the free agency period begins, we hear that Monroe has a long list of teams and the Celts are not near the top of it, so suddenly the Celts aren't interested? 

Yeah, right.

[max215]

I truly believe we'll look back at that trade falling through and be happy. The biggest reason is I tend to think Winslow was overrated by the masses desperately searching for that first star in this rebuild.

Looking back? Please. When I saw the offer today I let out a sigh of relief

[PhoSita]

And then let's continue with the fact that Charlotte has had a top 9 picks in 5 drafts in a row, including consecutive top 4 picks.  And they just let the first of those picks go without so much as giving him a qualifying offer.  That's how they got to this position.

Definitely a valid point.  Charlotte missed time after time on top 10 picks.  That's a killer.  You can't get that many shots and fail to reap some high level talent.

That doesn't change the difficulty of what they have to do now, which is build from the middle.  That is my point, here.  Building from the middle is messy and difficult. 

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.


Charlotte is a great example of both sides of the coin:

If you spend multiple years drafting in the lottery, you'd better make the most of it; if you don't come away with a foundational piece and find yourself trying to build from the middle, your road is a very hard one.

[Evantime34]

And then let's continue with the fact that Charlotte has had a top 9 picks in 5 drafts in a row, including consecutive top 4 picks.  And they just let the first of those picks go without so much as giving him a qualifying offer.  That's how they got to this position.

Definitely a valid point.  Charlotte missed time after time on top 10 picks.  That's a killer.  You can't get that many shots and fail to reap some high level talent.

That doesn't change the difficulty of what they have to do now, which is build from the middle.  That is my point, here.  Building from the middle is messy and difficult. 

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.


Charlotte is a great example of both sides of the coin:

If you spend multiple years drafting in the lottery, you'd better make the most of it; if you don't come away with a foundational piece and find yourself trying to build from the middle, your road is a very hard one.

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

If you’re going to build from the middle without a homegrown star, the only way up is to pile together little hits — especially since Charlotte can’t compete with Philly, Boston, or even Phoenix in putting together trade offers for disgruntled stars. Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint. “There’s no magic wand,” Cho says. “You just incrementally piece together good players with upside.”

[BudweiserCeltic]

A really interesting quote from the article, tweaked a little bit:

[Boston] had scraped out a path to relevancy in the weak East. The [Celtics] would never entice LeBron or even Love in free agency, but perhaps they were appealing enough to attract a B-level free agent — someone like [Greg Monroe], their initial target, or [David Lee / Amir Johnson]. If that worked, the [Celtics] might transform into the sort of rising 48-win team that could persuade the next B-level free agent. From there, you’re at 50-plus wins, a break or two from playing in the conference finals.

It wasn’t the cleanest process, but building from the middle is messy.

Well, first of all, after all the speculation from fans of Monroe as a target, it was quite apparent that Monroe was never of real [or any] interest to the Celtics. Let's start with that.

Monroe was just an example, but honestly I don't buy that the Celtics were not interested in him.  There were numerous reports throughout the season that Monroe was one of the Celtics targets.  Then it just so happens that when the free agency period begins, we hear that Monroe has a long list of teams and the Celts are not near the top of it, so suddenly the Celts aren't interested? 

Yeah, right.

Substitue Monroe for Harris and you'd take a step in the right direction. And considering that Monroe chose the Bucks, and considering who's Monroe's agent, and considering that there were reports during that time, if I recall correctly, that indicated that Ainge didn't even offer a call to Monroe, it should lead one to believe that there wasn't much interest from the Celtics side.

The Bucks are a young exciting team, but they aren't that dissimilar to what the Celtics had going into free-agency, so it would be a bit dishonest to believe that we wouldn't be in the mix if we wanted to be considered.

And I don't recall much being said about top-list. I recalled articles focused on meetings planned... so if the Celtics weren't interested in pursuing Monroe, why would they be included in a top-list or a list of planned meetings? Anyways, Monroe was always linked to the Knicks from the get go since back to All-Star break or so, never was Monroe linked to the Celtics that I recalled other than local speculation of wishful thinking on who we should go about targeting (nothing from the organization per se). But in the end he chose the Bucks over the "glamour" of New York.

I mean, remove the pessimism and think on this objectively, do you really believe that the Celtics wouldn't be able to even get a meeting with Monroe if they wanted to when he chose a team in Milwaukee? I'm not saying that he wouldn't choose them over us (though I'm of the opinion that if Ainge wanted to go after him, we would've had him), but I think it would be very hard to believe that the Celtics weren't even a consideration from Monroe's side.

Until I hear otherwise, the facts as we know them of: who Monroe's agent is (and his relationship with Danny), Monroe choosing the Bucks over New York, lack of call from Celtics' organization to court Monroe to me means that Monroe wasn't ever of real interest to the Celtics brass for some reason. And I personally, if that's true, think it was a mistake from Ainge.

Now that aside, I think Harris was a real legit target for us, and similar to the Hayward scenario, he was a restricted free-agent, and out of our reach.

Another small issue to bug you a bit more, I think including "Love" in the paragraph is a bit inaccurate, particularly with the "never". All I've heard is that the Celtics were actually a top option for him, but of course, leaving money on the table or the chance to win riding LeBron's just didn't leave a chance to much of anyone, but from what I've read had the Cavs and him not worked out a deal he might've wanted, Boston was one of his first choices, if not the top one.

[PhoSita]

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint.

Yes, it does mention that Charlotte is at a disadvantage in putting together a trade package when compared to a team like Boston or Philly.

I'm still pretty skeptical about where Boston stands as far as making a trade offer for any high level assets.  Recall that the article is about a recent instance in which Boston offered a boatload of picks and couldn't even come away with the #9 pick in the draft.

Unless one of those Brooklyn picks falls in the top 5, I really don't think the Celts will be leading any trade package race for a disgruntled star.  In that case, I think they'll have to settle for one or two second tier guys (e.g. Demar Derozan, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons).

[PhoSita]

Substitue Monroe for Harris and you'd take a step in the right direction.

Harris was the other name I considered putting in there.  I think you're right that it's a better example. 

Nevertheless, I'm still skeptical that Monroe wasn't a target for the Celts.  I think he simply preferred other teams with more talent already on board. 

I wouldn't blame Monroe for thinking that the Celts would have a much harder time propping him up defensively compared to the lanky, athletic roster the Bucks have assembled.

I mean, remove the pessimism and think on this objectively, do you really believe that the Celtics wouldn't be able to even get a meeting with Monroe if they wanted to when he chose a team in Milwaukee?

Yes, I believe that.  The Bucks have Middleton, a young break out guy who's not quite a star but very good, combined with Giannis, a player on the rise to stardom, and Jabari, a prospect who is perceived as a potential superstar scorer.  The Celts have nothing to compare to that when you look at the core of their roster . . . because the Celts don't have a core at all, really.

Add in the fact that, as I noted above, the Bucks are probably a better fit for Monroe, and I can believe that easily.



As for Love: talk is cheap.  Sure, we heard that Love liked Boston and would consider coming here.  But it seems to me he was very quick to go right back to Cleveland.  At the end of the day, the star chose to stay with other stars on a team that just went 6 games in the Finals.  Not a shock.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint.

Yes, it does mention that Charlotte is at a disadvantage in putting together a trade package when compared to a team like Boston or Philly.

I'm still pretty skeptical about where Boston stands as far as making a trade offer for any high level assets.  Recall that the article is about a recent instance in which Boston offered a boatload of picks and couldn't even come away with the #9 pick in the draft.

Unless one of those Brooklyn picks falls in the top 5, I really don't think the Celts will be leading any trade package race for a disgruntled star.  In that case, I think they'll have to settle for one or two second tier guys (e.g. Demar Derozan, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons).

As I speculated before, the rising cap is really making teams hold on to their stars and assets. Though hopeful, I think it'll be really hard to land anyone. Which is why I thought it was a priority this season to get actual talent going forward (become more attractive to free-agents, and increasing the asset pool we could offer in a deal).

I do think not getting a Monroe type, with my speculation that we didn't go after him, was a mistake. Nothing that could've been done with the Harris and Middleton's of the world from our side though, so an extension of tradeable assets (subbing for our  TPEs) with the contracts of Lee, Johnson, and Jerebko were good moves. At the very least, it opens opportunities in trades, as pessimistic as I might be with them.

We'll see.

[D.o.s.]

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint.

Yes, it does mention that Charlotte is at a disadvantage in putting together a trade package when compared to a team like Boston or Philly.

I'm still pretty skeptical about where Boston stands as far as making a trade offer for any high level assets.  Recall that the article is about a recent instance in which Boston offered a boatload of picks and couldn't even come away with the #9 pick in the draft.

Unless one of those Brooklyn picks falls in the top 5, I really don't think the Celts will be leading any trade package race for a disgruntled star.  In that case, I think they'll have to settle for one or two second tier guys (e.g. Demar Derozan, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons).

As I speculated before, the rising cap is really making teams hold on to their stars and assets. Though hopeful, I think it'll be really hard to land anyone. Which is why I thought it was a priority this season to get actual talent going forward (become more attractive to free-agents, and increasing the asset pool we could offer in a deal).

I do think not getting a Monroe type, with my speculation that we didn't go after him, was a mistake. Nothing that could've been done with the Harris and Middleton's of the world from our side though, so an extension of tradeable assets (subbing for our  TPEs) with the contracts of Lee, Johnson, and Jerebko were good moves. At the very least, it opens opportunities in trades, as pessimistic as I might be with them.

We'll see.

I agree with both of you. We're unlikely to hit on talent in free agency unless we already have talent that looks promising to the rest of the league.

[Evantime34]

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint.

Yes, it does mention that Charlotte is at a disadvantage in putting together a trade package when compared to a team like Boston or Philly.

I'm still pretty skeptical about where Boston stands as far as making a trade offer for any high level assets.  Recall that the article is about a recent instance in which Boston offered a boatload of picks and couldn't even come away with the #9 pick in the draft.

Unless one of those Brooklyn picks falls in the top 5, I really don't think the Celts will be leading any trade package race for a disgruntled star.  In that case, I think they'll have to settle for one or two second tier guys (e.g. Demar Derozan, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons).

My issue is less with us having the best package (which I think we will since I expect some solid player development this year). I'm just not sure who the next disgruntled star to become available will be. Had DeAndre left for Dallas I would have put my money on Blake Griffin, but now I have no idea who the player could be and when that player will become available. My fear is we will be hoarding assets until 2018 waiting for a player to become available.

I am not worried about a competing package from Philadelphia for a few more years, since usually when a star player is moved that player needs to accept where he is going. With the state of Philly as a current competitive franchise I don't think they will be a threat until they start winning.

[Celtics18]

The reason I point that out continuously around here is that many have an attitude that building from the middle is not only more noble, respectable, and enjoyable than building from the bottom via the draft, but it is also less messy and difficult.

My point has always been that building from the middle is, yes, "more noble, respectable, and enjoyable" but also that it's probably about equally "messy and difficult" as building from the bottom.

I believe it's "messy and difficult" either way.  I'd rather watch a team that's "noble, respectable, and enjoyable" while waiting for that big break that may or may not come. 

[obnoxiousmime]

The article does mention Boston saying how much better off they are than Charlotte.

Hell, even a team that nails every step of a clearly delineated plan from a pure value perspective, like the current Celtics, can get stuck in the middle just as long as a team with a murkier blueprint.

Yes, it does mention that Charlotte is at a disadvantage in putting together a trade package when compared to a team like Boston or Philly.

I'm still pretty skeptical about where Boston stands as far as making a trade offer for any high level assets.  Recall that the article is about a recent instance in which Boston offered a boatload of picks and couldn't even come away with the #9 pick in the draft.

Unless one of those Brooklyn picks falls in the top 5, I really don't think the Celts will be leading any trade package race for a disgruntled star.  In that case, I think they'll have to settle for one or two second tier guys (e.g. Demar Derozan, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons).

But you can't really look at the proposed deal from that perspective. Typically, a 9 pick is probably worth the two mid-rounders, the brooklyn pick, and another mid-late first rounder. If you offered this before the draft, most teams would probably say yes. In Charlotte's case, I assume Jordan just coveted Kaminsky and wanted an instant contributor for their hopeless playoff run. In the Heat's case, they obviously liked Winslow a lot. To them, Winslow was the value of a pick much higher than the 10th pick, as he was to Boston apparently. If you rate Winslow say, a top 5 talent in the draft then the rejection of Boston's offer makes more sense.