Author Topic: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!  (Read 10505 times)

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Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2015, 09:21:22 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Okay so I have found 4 separate profiles on Sullinger:

ESPN/NBA
ROTOWORLD.com
Celtics.com
NBA.com

all list him at 260
I did see your reference also at 280.

Who knows if and when they change these profiles but I have 4 to your one so I don't know which is correct AND I am still waiting for a concrete source that says he was 300 pounds.

The article was linked to and quoted on this very forum only some 2-3 weeks ago in a thread that was not unlike this one.

The sources in this case were direct quotes from Danny Ainge and Jared Sullinger themselves, so I'm pretty sure that you could consider those to be 'concrete'. 

All it takes is one look at Sully anytime in the past year to see that near a 290 pounds mass makes a lot more sense than 260 pounds does - his size is comparable to Big Baby Davis (different body type, but similar overall size) who is officially listed at 6'9" and 289 pounds.

Here is one link:
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/81/files/2015/07/glen-davis-nba-playoffs-san-antonio-spurs-los-angeles-clippers.jpg

Here is another:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/3/24/8285789/jared-sullinger-discusses-weight-problems-in-interview-with-espn

Some quotes from these links:

Quote
Sullinger has dealt with weight issues for his entire career. He came into training camp this year 20 pounds heavier than his 260 pound goal, and it only got worse from there. He reluctantly admits to topping out close to 300 pounds during this season.

Quote
he Celtics believe Sullinger weighed in excess of 300 pounds this season. The power forward balks at that number

"The heaviest I got was 298,'' he insisted.

He is told his team begs to differ.

"I didn't get over 300,'' Sullinger said. "I was close, but I didn't.''

He paused for a moment.

"Well, maybe one day I was ...'' he offered.

As for the 38 MPG question, no Celtics averaged that.  But most Celtics were conditioned enough that they probably COULD if they had to.

Guys like Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart, Tyler Zeller. 

I watch Sully play from the time he gets on the court, until around 5 minutes (game time) later.  His game transforms completely.  When he first subs in he's active, he's rotating well on defence, he's running back on defense, his fighting for loose balls.  By the time 5 minutes has passed he's walking/jogging back on defense (and we have a 5 on 4), he's not even trying to challenge shots on defense, and he looks at loose balls like they are they really hot girl at the club (the one you really want, but you know she's out of your reach). 

If he could play an entire game the way he does in the first 1-2 minute he's on the court, and if he could improve his shot selection, then he could seriously be a beast.  In fact I believe a big reason why he takes so many jumpers is because he's too tired to attack the basket or play with contact in the paint- it takes a lot less effort to just chuck contested threes.  Why do I say this?  Because I'm a fat Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. myself, and when I play pickup games with my friends that exactly how my game changes!  First 10 minutes I'm hustling on D,chasing loose balls, driving to the basket, pushing the fast break.  Last 10 minutes I'm taking jumpers, walking/jogging back on defense, offensive guys are blowing past me, and I'm watching loose balls roll past me. 

I honestly think he was his best season so far in a lot of ways was his rookie season, where he played more to his strengths and was (IMHO) far better for it.  I loved Sully.  He played inside more he shot less ill-advised threes, and his offensive efficiency (FG%, free throw rate, etc) was far better as a result.  Maybe that's because of the coaching change (with BS trying to force him to shoot threes, while Doc preferred him to play efficient) - if that's the case, then I'm sorry to say it but Brad isn't doing Sully any favors.
 
I loved Rookie-year Sully.  Rookie year Sully had everything.  He was a efficient post scorer, he was a rebounding machine, he got to the line at a decent rate, he could pass like a guard, could hit the midrange jumper at a decent rate, and could even step out and hit the occasional three. That's the perfect NBA Power Forward.  If Sully still played like Rookie-Year-Sully (just with developed skills) then I would be all for giving him an extension - throw the max his way. 

But third-year-Sully doesn't play like a developed-Rookie-Year-Sully.  Third-year-Sully plays like Rookie-Year-Sully-trying-to-be-Antoine-Walker-and -failing.  I don't like that version of Sully.

:(
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:53:13 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 09:50:42 PM »

Offline flybono

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Has anyone forget this Team has no center ?

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2015, 09:54:03 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Has anyone forget this Team has no center ?

There is no such thing as a center in today's NBA.  Just ask the All-Star voting form lol

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2015, 10:29:50 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I don't really think Tyreke is that big of an upgrade over Turner to justify that trade package for him, especially given Turner's much better value in his contract. I actually think he'd be a good fit with us if he had an outside shot, though.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2015, 11:09:48 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't really think Tyreke is that big of an upgrade over Turner to justify that trade package for him, especially given Turner's much better value in his contract. I actually think he'd be a good fit with us if he had an outside shot, though.

Why do you not think he's a big enough upgrade?

Tyreke's Career Per-36 numbers:

18 Points
5.2 Rebounds
5.6 Assists
1.5 Steals
0.4 Blocks
2.9 Turnovers
44.7% FG
27.8% 3PT
75.5% FT

Turner's Career Per-36 numbers:

13.5 Points
6.6 Rebounds
4.5 Assists
1.0 Steals
0.2 Blocks
2.5 Turnovers
42.7% FG
31.5% 3PT
76.75 FT


Tyreke's Advanced Stats this year:

Offensive RPM: +3.80 (6th Among SG)
Defensive RPM: -0.65 (44th Among SG)
Total RPM: +3.15 (10th Among SG)
WAR: 9.02 (7th Among SG)


Turner's Advanced stats this year:

Offensive RPM: -1.09 (58th Among SG)
Defensive RPM: -0.28 (33rd Among SG)
Total RPM: -1.37 (45th among SG)
WAR: 1.39 (30th among SG)

The first one that clearly stand out to me is the scoring numbers, which basically indicate that Turner is a jack-of-all trades guy who can give you a bit of offence, while Evans is a legit #2 / #3 scoring option.
 
The other which stands out are the advanced stats - RPM and WAR.  Both essentially indicate that Evans is a top 10 SG, while Turner is a backup-calibre player for all but the bottom 5 or so NBA teams.

Offensive RPM and Defensive RPM tell me that Tyreke and Turner are about on par defensively (both are not starting calibre defensive players) but that Tyreke is a far superior offensive player.

Basically making this trade has little impact on our defense one way or the other, but has a huge positive impact on our offense (which desperately needs a boost). 

I can see us making some really deadly rotations with Evans out there, because every hypothetical lineup I put together just seems to be that little bit lacking in scoring punch - a scorer of his calibre would make all the difference.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 11:34:21 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2015, 11:18:14 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Edit: Double post
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 11:25:10 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2015, 03:05:10 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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Why would we throw in James Young? Just because he didn't show out in SL does not make him a throw in. It is important to keep at least one guy on the roster that could be a super star.....its completely not worth it to use him as a filler.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2015, 05:09:42 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I guarentee if Tyreke was in a celtics uniform no one would dream of getting that much in return for him in a trade. We need to stop under valuing out players..and over vauing our players. We need to start properly valuing our players.

Well, that depends. If Sully, Turner, and Young didn't wear Celtics uniforms, how much would they be valued around here as well?

- LilRip

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2015, 07:21:25 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Forget Evans. Trade Turner and either Sully or Olynyk for S&T'd Jeff Withey (three years @ 4mil per, each of last two years non-guaranteed) and a future 1st.

Technically Im not sure the first can be added in an S&T, but this could be broken into two transactions pretty simply, I believe.
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2015, 08:54:39 AM »

Offline chambers

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Nah, not giving up Sully for Tyreke.

Tyreke is a ball stopper, bad shooter.
Just not good enough for me to give up Sully, let alone Young too.
He is better than Turner but I'm still unsure why Ainge signed Turner- I mean it was to build his value and then trade him so I'm sure that's on the cards.
Tyreke just adds another mediocre/above average player to our wing position with no great trade value long term.
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Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2015, 09:11:59 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Forget Evans. Trade Turner and either Sully or Olynyk for S&T'd Jeff Withey (three years @ 4mil per, each of last two years non-guaranteed) and a future 1st.

Technically Im not sure the first can be added in an S&T, but this could be broken into two transactions pretty simply, I believe.

I'm sorry, Jeff Withey?

Also, due to base-year compensation rules with sign-and-trades (because Withey is getting a huge raise in your proposal), that deal does not work per salary cap.  Withey's 1st year would have to be around $7.6 million to work.  Which is just flat ridiculous.

Also, because Pellies only have Early Bird rights on Withey, said deal is prohibited by the CBA.  Thankfully.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2015, 09:13:22 AM »

Offline saltlover

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double post delete.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2015, 09:20:17 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I guarentee if Tyreke was in a celtics uniform no one would dream of getting that much in return for him in a trade. We need to stop under valuing out players..and over vauing our players. We need to start properly valuing our players.

You think this one possible starter, one possible NBA player, and Evan Turner is too much for Tyreke Evans, himself a possible starter in the NBA?

I hear a lot of people saying that folks on this blog have wildly inaccurate views on the worth of our players. Outside of some obvious examples (not trading Smart for Kevin Durant or Anthony Davis, for example) I often think this is just code for "I wouldn't do a given trade because I don't like the pieces involved." In this case, I am struggling to see where the over/undervaluing that you're suggesting exists.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2015, 09:28:48 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Forget Evans. Trade Turner and either Sully or Olynyk for S&T'd Jeff Withey (three years @ 4mil per, each of last two years non-guaranteed) and a future 1st.

Technically Im not sure the first can be added in an S&T, but this could be broken into two transactions pretty simply, I believe.

I'm sorry, Jeff Withey?

Also, due to base-year compensation rules with sign-and-trades (because Withey is getting a huge raise in your proposal), that deal does not work per salary cap.  Withey's 1st year would have to be around $7.6 million to work.  Which is just flat ridiculous.

Also, because Pellies only have Early Bird rights on Withey, said deal is prohibited by the CBA.  Thankfully.

Yes, Jeff Withey.

Now forget him for a moment. Could you explain the first piece regarding the salary requirements for a player in Withey's shoes? I'd love to understand that better. Thanks.
Mike

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Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2015, 09:41:58 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Forget Evans. Trade Turner and either Sully or Olynyk for S&T'd Jeff Withey (three years @ 4mil per, each of last two years non-guaranteed) and a future 1st.

Technically Im not sure the first can be added in an S&T, but this could be broken into two transactions pretty simply, I believe.

I'm sorry, Jeff Withey?

Also, due to base-year compensation rules with sign-and-trades (because Withey is getting a huge raise in your proposal), that deal does not work per salary cap.  Withey's 1st year would have to be around $7.6 million to work.  Which is just flat ridiculous.

Also, because Pellies only have Early Bird rights on Withey, said deal is prohibited by the CBA.  Thankfully.

Yes, Jeff Withey.

Now forget him for a moment. Could you explain the first piece regarding the salary requirements for a player in Withey's shoes? I'd love to understand that better. Thanks.

If a player with Early Bird or Bird rights is involved in a sign-and-trade, and is getting a raise of more than 20%, his outgoing salary only counts as half for purposes of how much salary the team trading him can take back.  So for Withey, he would only count as a $2 million outgoing salary, enabling the Pelicans to take back $3.1 miion for him.  At the same time, he would count as a $4 million incoming salary for the Celtics, so they'd need to send out $2.6 million for him.  Accordingly, there's a narrow range of salaries that can work for such deals, making it tough to give S&T players large raises.  This is primarily why Bogans got paid so much, as the Nets needed about $2.5 million salary to add to the KG-Pierce deal.  But Bogans only counted at half, so he got a little over $5 million.